What is automation?

Roen

So there's now a home automation forum, but are half the threads about automation or are they about gadgets that allow you interact with systems in a different way.

Automation to me is about non interaction. If I have to dig into my pocket for my phone, unlock it, make a few gestures to open the app, make a few gestures within the app, then get to the setting I want, it's not automation.

If I have to speak to something, it's not automation.

You're still interacting with something, you're just pushing a different button. It's not hands off or voice off.

It's not automation if you have to do something. To me it's automation if things you want just happen by you going about your daily business.

So has anyone actually got an automated system in place? Or is that still a pipe dream?

Just to expand, I hope to build an automated system (probably based around Home Assistant). So far the only thing that's hands/voice off is the hall lighting. It comes on with motion, exactly as you'd be leaving one room and heading to another, then shuts off 60s after there's no motion. So you're doing something you'd normally do, minus the switching on/off of lights.
Not exactly ground breaking but it works and it's great. Step one.

Stoner

Roen wrote:

If I have to speak to something, it's not automation.

Correct that's control,
this is control and automation
I made that distinction while looking to put forward a case for this forum in the first place

Roen wrote:

It's not automation if you have to do something. To me it's automation if things you want just happen by you going about your daily business.

The examples i gave for my automation were

The hall light that automatically turns on in the evening, it checks Google's dusk time for my house and switches it on then, it automatically turns it off at 23:00

I don't go near it.


IFTTT offers automation option's. If I text my wife to tell her "I'm on the way home" I can have the gate on the house open for me .

Events in lightwaverf can have automation features.
Like open the gate wait 2 minutes then close the gate, turn on the front security light and the light in the porch both for 30 seconds then turn them off. Ok you initiated it, but something usually does
The time
The temperature
The email to someone
The button press
PIR movement detection
PIR plus daylight reading plus a time clock

If they lead to series of events then it's automation as far as I'm concerned.
If it completes a different step after the thing you initiated was called for then it's automation

When the intruder alarm goes off, the lights in the house turn on.

Etc all these things are a series of events that happen automatically.

Adding multiple stats to heating systems to automatically turn the rads on and off because they are reading multiple temperatures

I agree asking Google Home Alexa or home kit to turn a light on is control not automation, it's like those switches that turn on when you clap.

_Brian

Our oil is on temperature demand depending on the time of day.

Six or seven timeslots are allocated a duration and desired temperature, if the room isn't at the set temp for the time then it calls for the boiler to run.

If we have the stove lit the stat will sense the heat and not call for the boiler to run.

Very basic automation but unless I want additional heat at some time it's never touched.

Each day has a different pattern set so weekends are very different to weekdays.

Cost about €80/100 a few years ago and I reckon it saves maybe €100 a year on oil as prevents oil running when house is already warm.

There was a more advanced model that would "learn" when you regularly boosted/stopped the heating and adjust the schedule accordingly.

2011

Roen wrote: »

Automation to me is about non interaction. If I have to dig into my pocket for my phone, unlock it, make a few gestures to open the app, make a few gestures within the app, then get to the setting I want, it's not automation.

I disagree.

Automation is about automatic control. This can range from something basic in a home to something very complex in industry.

Think of a large modern plant. Many of these can have state of the art automation systems with thousands of I/O, multiple PLCs, robots, etc. These highly advanced automation systems still require input from workers via various user interfaces such as HMIs. This allows operators to change parameters, enter set points, run batches, see the system status, acknowledge alarms etc.

I have yet to see a definition of automation that states that if there is any human interaction required it is not automation.

Reati

2011 wrote: »

I have yet to see a definition of automation that states that if there is any human interaction required it is not automation.

Indeed, by it's very nature it will need human interaction to start it running, to update variables for changes in how you want it to run and to handle events that happen outside the operating envelope when the system doesn't know what the right thing to do is. etc.

bk

In the end, something has to trigger the automation, voice, button press, time of day, movement, presence, temperature, etc.

At night, I say to my Amazon Echo:
"Alexa, turn on night time" and it:

- Turns off my TV, AV and set top box.
- Turns on my bedside lamps
- Turns off all the other lights in the house gradually over 60 seconds.

That is a lot of automation for one simple trigger IMO.

Lots of other automations exist. A Smart Thermostat can be programmed to respond purely to temperature based on a schedule and the current temperature with no human intervention beyond the initial setup.

Philips Hue lights can be setup to come on based on timers and motion sensors. They can even be triggered off a Nest smoke alarm going off.

But notice how these examples are all been triggered by something, time of day, temperature, motion, etc. Does it really make a difference if voice is triggering the automation, rather then some other event?

I don't think it does.

tigger1962

in my case, i use a combination of "switches", that trigger my home systems. There are timers to control the heating system combined with temperature sensors. I have pir sensors controlling lights for some rooms but other rooms are on timers or can be controlled remotely from and app or via geofencing. e.g. my hall light or kitchen light is triggered by my phone as i arrive at my house or my daughter leaves the lights on in her room they get turned off automatically. I can turn on/off my kids entertainment/xbox via an app or timer on the domoticz system. I can have the coffee machine to turn on as i arrive home too and then turn off later. The power to various devices get automatically switched off at certain times or triggered remotely.Its not fully automatic more semi automatic so to me it is automation.

rolion

Hi,

Whit all these automated things...what is wrong with YOU going around your home and turn off the lights before bed time !?
What stops you from power off the AV items when YOU finished watching the programme or listening to music ?
What makes you feel safe and for sure that whatever YOU share with the third party makes you happy ?

WHY do WE have to pass this to something else to do it on OUR behalf !?

Before shouting back to me...let me ask you to read this article HERE and then share your opinion. But, make sure your IoT is not listening to you !

bk

Why do you have a remote control for your TV? Couldn't you just get up and change the channel with the buttons on the TV? *

* Totally normal with TV's 30 years ago, they didn't have remotes.

Roen

bk wrote: »

Why do you have a remote control for your TV? Couldn't you just get up and change the channel with the buttons on the TV? *

* Totally normal with TV's 30 years ago, they didn't have remotes.

Yes they did. I was the remote control in our house 40 years ago. Up and down to the set. I remember the first actual remote I saw. Wire running from the handheld unit to the vcr. Wire running across the room. Jaysus.

Stoner

Roen wrote:

Yes they did. I was the remote control in our house 40 years ago. Up and down to the set. I remember the first actual remote I saw. Wire running from the handheld unit to the vcr. Wire running across the room. Jaysus.

Me too, well not quite 40 years ago !
I hid the wire behind the curtain and under the carpet.

The first remote we had was wireless. It had two buttons. One to mute and unmute the other to cycle through the 8 stations

2011

Stoner wrote: »

Me too, well not quite 40 years ago !
I hid the wire behind the curtain and under the carpet.

The first remote we had was wireless. It had two buttons. One to mute and unmute the other to cycle through the 8 stations

2 buttons??? You were lucky!
We dreamt of having 2 buttons.
We lived in a hole in the middle of road......:D

Mech1

Stoner wrote: »

Me too, well not quite 40 years ago !
I hid the wire behind the curtain and under the carpet.

The first remote we had was wireless. It had two buttons. One to mute and unmute the other to cycle through the 8 stations

We had the same, one night someone sneezed and the channel changed.... que a session of "clap" testing took place, and it ended with my mum clapping for channel up my older sister for channel down:D it worked well!

bk

I clearly remember excitedly telling my dad about these fancy new TV's with wireless remote (clearly I was always a geek!) and him saying:

"Pfft, what do you think I had you for!"

Special Circumstances

Roen wrote: »

If I have to speak to something, it's not automation.

You're still interacting with something, you're just pushing a different button. It's not hands off or voice off.

It's not automation if you have to do something. To me it's automation if things you want just happen by you going about your daily business.

So has anyone actually got an automated system in place? Or is that still a pipe dream?

Are you confusing "automating a sequence of events, based on a specific trigger" with "All knowing, all seeing Artificial Intelligence" ?

tigger1962

I'm old enough to remember pre remote control Tv's and the ultrasonic remotes that came later. My project has nothing to do with AI, there is a basic low powered device acting as the controller but it still doe not make decisions on its own. It started off as an extension of my alarm system to provide timers for lights when I'm not at home. Then as a method of switching lights/Tv off when they were left on too long and nobody was at home to do it and it has saved money and electricity because of this. The heating is not on and does not waste oil unnecessarily when nobody is at home but still keeps the house at a decent temperature for when we come home. I program the sequences or sensors do it for me, then I go about my business without having to rememebr if i left the "immersion" on or left other devices on or off.. it also help me in that my kids are not plugged in all the time to TV. Automation used in factories is not fully automated either. It is programmed to follow a prescribed series of functions in order to produce the final product. it does not have a say in what the final product is or what it does. Home automation is to me a means of making life a little easier but I think its a bit away yet from full AI home automation.

tigger1962

and as for manually turning off all the devices at night time... I still do... but at least if i've forgotten something, the controller will do check too.

Roen

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Are you confusing "automating a sequence of events, based on a specific trigger" with "All knowing, all seeing Artificial Intelligence" ?

I don't think so, I've worked with and on huge automated lines in industry, I work in an area of IT now that would be concerned primarily with automating yourself out of day to day hands on of systems.

Confused, no, I might have too rigid a view of what I accept as 'automation' though.

Somewhere in between an all seeing and all knowing AI taking you out of the equation, and at the other end of the scale triggering a specific sequence of events you cross a line where you can't really say that you've successfully automated a system.

Would it depend on the trigger? So where do you cross the line? X manual triggers creates Y amount of subsequent actions. What's X and Y in the equation?


Not trying to be contrarian, I am actually curious as to where the line lies between automation and control. I certainly don't have all (or maybe even any) answers.

It is an interesting topic though I feel.

Reati

Roen wrote: »

I might have too rigid a view of what I accept as 'automation' though.

What you seem to accept as automation and what automation is defined are incompatible then:

the technique, method, or system of operating or controlling a process by highly automatic means, as by electronic devices, reducing human intervention to a minimum.


All automation has human intervention at some point. Someone has to write software automation and start it for example. At some point a human will have to interact with it as it will fail at some point and need to be restarted or modified to avoid the same failure.

If you can share, I'd like to understand what automation you are working with to get a better insight into your thinking.

Roen

Reati wrote: »

What you seem to accept as automation and what automation is defined are incompatible then:

the technique, method, or system of operating or controlling a process by highly automatic means, as by electronic devices, reducing human intervention to a minimum.


All automation has human intervention at some point. Someone has to write software automation and start it for example. At some point a human will have to interact with it as it will fail at some point and need to be restarted or modified to avoid the same failure.

Of course. You do the work up front so that you can reap the benefits down the line. The manual set up is of course part of any automated system. I'm a martyr for it

If you can share, I'd like to understand what automation you are working with to get a better insight into your thinking.

Forgive the long post!

Ok so a little about where I am coming from. I recently bought a house and for the first time in my life I am in a position where I have free reign as to what I can install in a property.

So as I started with what I consider the core infrastructure. Water in. Waste out. Power. Security. Heat. Light. Internet.

It's a relatively new property, 10 years old, but that can be the time when things start to go wrong. So I wanted to draw a line under the all of the above so that I knew exactly where I stood in terms of maintenance.

Water came first, new softener and reverse osmosis filtration system fitted.

Waste system checked over.

Power in terms of mains supply, fuseboard and genny were all checked over and serviced where appropriate. That's where I began to start thinking of smarts.
The previous owners were on a prepay supply. The one thing that struck me was that the meter was very detailed, you could cycle through current usage, daily usage. Get break downs on cost etc. So when I went on to a conventional billed service and the meter was removed I missed having the stats to hand.

Alarm system repaired where I could and serviced/checked by an engineer. Locks replaced. Windows and doors checked over.
Radon detectors laid down (flying colours) and smoke detectors checked over.

Heating next, clean out tank, service boiler, check all rads and valves. Started thinking about smart thermostats and app control.

Then came lighting. Time to replace the halogens with LEDs. I realised I'd missed a trick with the other stuff and should have perhaps taken a step further as regards smarts. So when I started to replace lights I went with Philips Hue. Liked it.

So I looked back at what I could have done when I was initially tackling all the above and decided to lay some sort of smarts on as much of it as I could. Over the next while I began researching and talking to the guys in work about their homes and their systems.

I just didn't want about 12 apps controlling different things. And the thing that struck me about all these smart/connected devices was that they were individually smart, but unless you bought into a complete ecosystem from one company they were collectively dumb. TV from brand X couldn't talk to lighting from brand Y or from brand Z. Your alarm sensors can't tell your heating system that you've left a window open (although I gather you can do that now).

Eventually my googling led me to Home Assistant. And I said feck it, I'll give it a bash.

But here's the rub. I love getting all the tech stuff together and hooking stuff into Home Assistant. But now that I'm setting it up I have few if any ideas of what rulesets to create.

I seem to find the hard part easy (tech) and the easy part hard. It could be that I am new here and haven't settled into any routine yet, and when I do I'll know exactly what I should automate out of the way and what stuff just won't be suited to it.

So that led me to the question about what automation is and is it really automation if you are just moving from a physical switch to one on your smart phone.

So part personal geek project, part pride in a new home, part new arrival on the way and wanting to take some of the more mundane stuff out of the way.

Hope some of that makes sense!

Stoner

Roen wrote:

So that led me to the question about what automation is and is it really automation if you are just moving from a physical switch to one on your smart phone.

As agreed in my first post

No it's not it's control . If you add another switch it's not automation. Marking it easier to do one thing is not automation

Regardless of all the fantastic things you did in your new home, if the original electrician installed two way switching, it wasn't automation either, a more convenient way of switching on or off a light is on off position control.
Control and Automation 101. The on off switch is control, adding it to an app is just an other switch.

But a timer is automatic , a PIR is automatic, a Photo override on a light fitting is automatic. One action that carries a number of actions automatically is automation.

A voice search on Alexa is not automation it's an alternative to using a keyboard, just like the button on your phone is an alternative to your light switch.

But then OP you know all this already and our posts have begun to hunt.

Roen

True Stoner. The mind is rambling alright.