Pay for Aircraft Engineers

34angrypostman

Hi all, I am currently doing an apprenticeship for Aircraft engineering and was wordering does anyone know the basic starting off salary for a B1 or B2 licensed engineer doing line maintainence in Ireland??

Stovepipe

Mid 20s.

kona

depends on the airline and shift pay, bonus, coverage etc etc. Roughly high 20s up to high 60s.

34angrypostman

Stovepipe wrote: »

Mid 20s.

That seems very low was expecting higher!!

34angrypostman

kona wrote: »

depends on the airline and shift pay, bonus, coverage etc etc. Roughly high 20s up to high 60s.

What airline pays the best here? Also, does it take long to progress up the wage scale??

kona

34angrypostman wrote: »

What airline pays the best here? Also, does it take long to progress up the wage scale??

can take a good while to be fair could take 8 years to get a few type licenses ontop of your B1.

Best airlines? theres a few things to take into account ontop but for raw cash ryanair and delta seem to pay the most.

If your doing a apprenticeship you should be able to find this out fairly handy.

billy few mates

Stovepipe wrote: »

Mid 20s.

I'd be astonished if someone with a full B1 never mind a B2 was on a salary in the mid 20s.
I'm not sure what it's like at the lower end of the scale for a newly qualified, relatively inexperienced B1 or B2 with few types nowadays but with the right types and a bit of experience they can easily earn triple that.
Also remember that in a job like that the salary is only part of the package, there's usually a shift premium and licence and approval pay which will boost that considerably and then there's always the option of overtime if you're still a bit skint.
If money is your number one priority then it's worth remembering that with a few years experience and the right types on your licence there are some very well paid contract positions out there, home and away.

jucylucy

As billy mentioned 20k would be on the absolute lowest end of the scale, a cat A mech we have gets 25k.I heard on big DUBLIN airline was paying CRS staff mid 30k which is still low. Smaller airline in Dublin pay more but expect more....experience is a major driver.
Dublin I would say late 40k at least plus licence/shift will bring you to late 50k/60k..FR do pay well but.........
Boeing in Dublin pay well but they are rarely in Dublin!!

Contracting abroad can be rewarding but really good money needs experience and type ratings.

Start with getting the licenceB1/B2, then you can see you options when you qualify. Another good reward can be the paid travel....

34angrypostman

jucylucy wrote: »

As billy mentioned 20k would be on the absolute lowest end of the scale, a cat A mech we have gets 25k.I heard on big DUBLIN airline was paying CRS staff mid 30k which is still low. Smaller airline in Dublin pay more but expect more....experience is a major driver.
Dublin I would say late 40k at least plus licence/shift will bring you to late 50k/60k..FR do pay well but.........
Boeing in Dublin pay well but they are rarely in Dublin!!

Contracting abroad can be rewarding but really good money needs experience and type ratings.

Start with getting the licenceB1/B2, then you can see you options when you qualify. Another good reward can be the paid travel....

Thanks I'm only a young lad in first year so I don't know the ins and outs of all this it's quite new to me. So let's say I got my B1 or B2 and I was working for a small dublin airline I could maybe expect 30k+ starting off?

tu2j2

Without knowing who you work for nobody can say. Best thing to do is ask somebody where you work, although I presume your in Shannon at the moment if your in first year.

In dublin ryanair seem to pay a bit better than others, like probably in the 60k ish bracket all in for a signing engineer (so including shift and approval pay)

In most places starting your probably looking in the low 30's, the B1 or B2 licence is essentially useless until you get a type course. Then get company approval, thats when the money starts to go up.

But all thats 4 years away so I wouldn't worry about it now as there is nothing you can do about it until you finish. Just try pass all the exams as when you start going for second and third attempts it starts getting messy.

Pat Dunne

34angrypostman wrote: »

Thanks I'm only a young lad in first year so I don't know the ins and outs of all this it's quite new to me. So let's say I got my B1 or B2 and I was working for a small dublin airline I could maybe expect 30k+ starting off?

Jayus, I'd love to be in your position!

34angrypostman

tu2j2 wrote: »

Without knowing who you work for nobody can say. Best thing to do is ask somebody where you work, although I presume your in Shannon at the moment if your in first year.

In dublin ryanair seem to pay a bit better than others, like probably in the 60k ish bracket all in for a signing engineer (so including shift and approval pay)

In most places starting your probably looking in the low 30's, the B1 or B2 licence is essentially useless until you get a type course. Then get company approval, thats when the money starts to go up.

But all thats 4 years away so I wouldn't worry about it now as there is nothing you can do about it until you finish. Just try pass all the exams as when you start going for second and third attempts it starts getting messy.

Yeah I'm in shannon at them moment and I've passed all the exams so far with ease so just can't wait to get started properly, thanks for the help anyway much appreciated

alexonhisown

Good luck with your apprenticeship, its a great job no matter what the starting salary is tbh. Great salary and prospects after a few years

Stovepipe

Let me clarify, a (newly fifth year) group of my personal acquaintance get about Eu 26K, all in, all are full B1 and most have A320 out of their own pocket. Compulsory full time nights, line or hangar, for at least all of fifth year, zero prospect of promotion until at least eight years in.

billy few mates

Stovepipe wrote: »

Let me clarify, a (newly fifth year) group of my personal acquaintance get about Eu 26K, all in, all are full B1 and most have A320 out of their own pocket. Compulsory full time nights, line or hangar, for at least all of fifth year, zero prospect of promotion until at least eight years in.

26K all in, full B1 on A320, permanent nights....? :eek:

Are you serious...?

Pat Dunne

Why would apprentices be on a full wage?

kona

5th year apprentices. I'd say there's a few 30 year apprentices floating about too

Foggy43

I think I can see where Stovepipe is coming from. Speaking from my location some organizations do not just take apprentices but also graduates who have graduated in an engineering field. They are put through module training to get their B license followed by a CRS course. They progress up the pay scale on an annual basis. It can take 7 years to get to the highest level.

26K does feel a bit low but there are so many maintenance organizations out there, anything is possible.

kona

Foggy43 wrote: »

I think I can see where Stovepipe is coming from. Speaking from my location some organizations do not just take apprentices but also graduates who have graduated in an engineering field. They are put through module training to get their B license followed by a CRS course. They progress up the pay scale on an annual basis. It can take 7 years to get to the highest level.

26K does feel a bit low but there are so many maintenance organizations out there, anything is possible.

You won't get a b1 without 4 years experience anyways. And that's if you do the exams in a approved 147 environment. Regardless of degree .

billy few mates

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Why would apprentices be on a full wage?

Where does he say anything about apprentices? Plus the length of time for aircraft mechanics apprenticeship would be three to four years max.

He said these are ' newly fifth year' so presumably he means first year post apprenticeship but eitherways €26K total package, permanent nights for someone with full B1 CRS approval on A320 (or any passenger A/C for that matter) is an insult and well short of industry rate.
A clerical officer working in a nice warm office Monday to Friday without a fraction of the responsibility of a certifying tech would be on better pay than that. Time to reevaluate your career choice or employer unless you like selling yourself short...
http://www.sigmarrecruitment.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Sigmar-Recruitment-Salary-Guide-Ireland-2016.pdf

Foggy43

kona wrote: »

You won't get a b1 without 4 years experience anyways. And that's if you do the exams in a approved 147 environment. Regardless of degree .

Our graduates do a JAR-147 approved course. It is 2 years experience that is required. Where I am experience and course run together. The graduate will work with a B1 or B2 CRS holder on live aircraft for experience. They then have college on other days to study for their modules. Depending on what engineering course the graduate had done it can mean they being exempt doing some modules.

There is a self study route you can take but 5 years experience is required.

kona

Foggy43 wrote: »

Our graduates do a JAR-147 approved course. It is 2 years experience that is required. Where I am experience and course run together. The graduate will work with a B1 or B2 CRS holder on live aircraft for experience. They then have college on other days to study for their modules. Depending on what engineering course the graduate had done it can mean they being exempt doing some modules.

There is a self study route you can take but 5 years experience is required.

That's definatley not the way it works in Ireland. Seems to be a better way in the UK.

tu2j2

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Why would apprentices be on a full wage?

They're not apprentices, the apprenticeship in Ireland at the moment is 4 years. And I would say 95% of apprentices will have it finished within the 4 years. Some companies will try give their newly qualified apprentices a "5th year" contract which is frankly insulting.

kona wrote: »

That's definatley not the way it works in Ireland. Seems to be a better way in the UK.

It kinda has to be though, we're all under EASA so they can't do things very differently. In Ireland now the apprenticeship is a proper approved part 147 course which means that assuming you pass everything after two years you will have your A licence and as soon as you finish the apprenticeship you receive your B1 or B2 licence. Up until recently the Irish apprenticeship was a recognised course which meant that after you finished your 4 year apprenticeship you needed an additional 9 months (ish) of experience to obtain you B1 or B2 licence.

tu2j2

Stovepipe wrote: »

Let me clarify, a (newly fifth year) group of my personal acquaintance get about Eu 26K, all in, all are full B1 and most have A320 out of their own pocket. Compulsory full time nights, line or hangar, for at least all of fifth year, zero prospect of promotion until at least eight years in.

They have the B1 and type course but am I right in thinking that none of them are actually signing? Cause there is no way any signing engineer would work for that on permanent nights.

Not that it should even make a difference. They'd make more than that pretty much anywhere else, that is properly terrible money. Surely that can't be right, shift allowance must be 5-6k which would mean 20k ish :eek:

J.pilkington

At times I get the feeling that some posters on here don't want any new entrants to their industry with their stories of rubbish pay and working conditions which funnily enough never stand up to scrutiny!

kona

tu2j2 wrote: »

It kinda has to be though, we're all under EASA so they can't do things very differently. In Ireland now the apprenticeship is a proper approved part 147 course which means that assuming you pass everything after two years you will have your A licence and as soon as you finish the apprenticeship you receive your B1 or B2 licence. Up until recently the Irish apprenticeship was a recognised course which meant that after you finished your 4 year apprenticeship you needed an additional 9 months (ish) of experience to obtain you B1 or B2 licence.

The only reason it took 9 months extra was because phase 2 in Shannon was 9 months. Fas Shannon only got limited 147 in 2012. So the 9 months extra was for people who attended pre 2012. This is also the reason that you can achieve a cat A after 2 years, as you can do your 147 exams up to cat A in Shannon.

The apprenticeship was always a recognised course and is the only recognised course by the IAA in terms of reducing the amount of experience needed to obtain a cat b1 or b2.

kona

J.pilkington wrote: »

At times I get the feeling that some posters on here don't want any new entrants to their industry with their stories of rubbish pay and working conditions which funnily enough never stand up to scrutiny!

What? He's telling the truth. A certain company is ****ing around with a group of newly qualified apprentices. I don't have exact figures but it's not far off that figure. While they may have b1 and some may have a type, they are currently not signing a crs.
Fact of the matter is that next year I wouldn't be surprised to see industrial action in a number of 145 companies. Companies are taking the complete piss out of people.

Stovepipe

The lads in question are just entering their fifth year of service, are out of their time and have got all their b1 modules done and some have the A320 course done (privately) so they have the A320 in their licenses, but don't sign for anything as the company will not yet pay them for the A320 Type or even Cat A yet so they are on the sum I mentioned above. Being stuck on permanent nights is the current policy for those just out of their time. In some companies, recently qualified aptces became/become the wheel and brake change crew, which is demoralising, if nothing else....Tu2j2 has also hit the nail on the head, instant short-term contracts being a case in point.

tu2j2

kona wrote: »

The only reason it took 9 months extra was because phase 2 in Shannon was 9 months. Fas Shannon only got limited 147 in 2012. So the 9 months extra was for people who attended pre 2012. This is also the reason that you can achieve a cat A after 2 years, as you can do your 147 exams up to cat A in Shannon.

The apprenticeship was always a recognised course and is the only recognised course by the IAA in terms of reducing the amount of experience needed to obtain a cat b1 or b2.

My understanding is (and I haven't looked all this up overly recently) is that there are three routes to getting a B1/B2 licence.

1. An approved 147 training course which requires 2 years practical experience.
2. Complete a recognised apprenticeship which requires 3 years practical experience.
3. Self starter which requires 5 years practical experience.

Also the IAA can reduce your required experience if you have previously completed a relevant apprenticeship or have previous relevant work experience, ie. an electrician etc. But its entirely up to them.

All this regulation crap hurts my brain too much.

Basically they had to change the entire format of the apprenticeship to get rid of that 9 months at the end, it didn't happen just because Shannon got their 147 approval. It went from being recognised by the IAA to being an approved 147 training course.

When the course is approved the experience requirement drops by a year which means that you've enough practical experience within the apprenticeship (just a little over two years), time spend in college/FAS is not counted as practical experience.


Shannon aerospace was the same, well, worse actually, their traineeship was not recognised by the IAA up until a few years ago which meant that when you finished your 2 year 3 month traineeship, one year of which was theoretical, you had 1 year 3 months practical experience. Then due to the IAA not recognising it at all you needed another 1 year 9month practical experience to obtain you cat A due to the IAA considering you a self starter. They then got IAA approval as an approved 147 training course which meant that you would have your CAT A when you finished the traineeship only requiring 1 year practical experience.


I've just written all this now and realised that I probably should have just looked it up as I could well be wrong

34angrypostman

J.pilkington wrote: »

At times I get the feeling that some posters on here don't want any new entrants to their industry with their stories of rubbish pay and working conditions which funnily enough never stand up to scrutiny!

Oh stop I know!! My lectures in shannon have said anyone with a B license can go contracting and get 30-50 quid an hour and some of the numbers here are peanuts compared to that!

kona

tu2j2 wrote: »

My understanding is (and I haven't looked all this up overly recently) is that there are three routes to getting a B1/B2 licence.

1. An approved 147 training course which requires 2 years practical experience.
2. Complete a recognised apprenticeship which requires 3 years practical experience.
3. Self starter which requires 5 years practical experience.

Also the IAA can reduce your required experience if you have previously completed a relevant apprenticeship or have previous relevant work experience, ie. an electrician etc. But its entirely up to them.

All this regulation crap hurts my brain too much.

Basically they had to change the entire format of the apprenticeship to get rid of that 9 months at the end, it didn't happen just because Shannon got their 147 approval. It went from being recognised by the IAA to being an approved 147 training course.

When the course is approved the experience requirement drops by a year which means that you've enough practical experience within the apprenticeship (just a little over two years), time spend in college/FAS is not counted as practical experience.


Shannon aerospace was the same, well, worse actually, their traineeship was not recognised by the IAA up until a few years ago which meant that when you finished your 2 year 3 month traineeship, one year of which was theoretical, you had 1 year 3 months practical experience. Then due to the IAA not recognising it at all you needed another 1 year 9month practical experience to obtain you cat A due to the IAA considering you a self starter. They then got IAA approval as an approved 147 training course which meant that you would have your CAT A when you finished the traineeship only requiring 1 year practical experience.


I've just written all this now and realised that I probably should have just looked it up as I could well be wrong

I can assure you the reason the 9 months is there was due to Shannon not having 147. It's not a dig at Shannon it's just a fact. Your a little out of date but point 1 and 2 existed a few years ago. Since snn got approval now the entire apprenticeship scheme is under 147/145 from day 1, so you can get catA after 2 years and CatB after 4.

If you complete a recognised training course in a 147 approved environment this is counted as time spent in experience by the IAA. Your practical work must also take place in a approved 145 environment. Any other route into a b1 or b2 will take longer possibly up to 7 years. That's before you talk about people who fail modules and getting a type course.

kona

34angrypostman wrote: »

Oh stop I know!! My lectures in shannon have said anyone with a B license can go contracting and get 30-50 quid an hour and some of the numbers here are peanuts compared to that!

You won't get that kind of cash without experience. Having a B1 and a type is a long way off being a certifier. Experience in signing crs is a massive learning curve. Especially if your on your own and it's you who has to make the calls.

Forget about the cash at the moment and pass your exams. Enjoy the apprenticeship especially the later phases when your getting decent money. You'll be wanting to be back in Shannon or dit when your elbow deep in chapter 38.

Stovepipe

why do you think so many aircraft engineers quit and retrain as pilots? Apart from the better prospects as a pilot, they know they'll never be elbow deep in a toilet again, unless it's their own jax. No more Chapter 38 is a good enough reason to quit the spanners for the cockpit.

Stovepipe

Heard anecdotally that Dublin Aerospace have been losing people to other non-aviation firms as the pay is below par and bonuses didn't appear. Anyone got any word on this?