considering a career change at 28. Is law the right career path to be taking?

Twinings2016

Hi there,
Looking for some practical advice from the wider Boards.ie community. I have been doing quite a bit of research and as a whole, it appears that there is an abundance of solicitors and not enough jobs or training contracts. Is this still the case in Ireland?
I'm 28 and considering a change in career. I have a BA in English/Media and MA in Publishing and have been working in Publishing in London for the past 3 years. I've realised though, that this is not the path for me and looking to change careers. I'm incredibly interested in the law and have been doing a lot of reading for some time. I am also thinking of doing the graduate diploma in law in DIT, as a conversion course of sorts and the onto the FE 1's.
What I'd like some advice on:
Are more training contracts and jobs for solicitors becoming available in Ireland?
Would I be at a disadvantage looking for a TC with just a graduate diploma in law from and not an undergrad degree also?
Would a Masters be advised as a reinforcement to the GDL in the job hunt?
Is 28 too old to be pursuing such a competitive and demanding career?
Has anyone else out there done this graduate diploma in law coming from a background other than law?
Sorry for so many questions! I think some practical advice would be welcomed, as the idea right now is really appealing, but I just want all the facts before I commit.
Cheers!

Pat Mustard

Twinings2016 wrote: »

Is 28 too old to be pursuing such a competitive and demanding career?
Has anyone else out there done this graduate diploma in law coming from a background other than law?

Plenty of people have begun to practise law in their thirties, forties and older. These people have come from backgrounds in other careers.

28 is relatively young. Your age is unlikely to hold you back.

chops018

Just be aware. If you did that DIT diploma thing then that's one year, then if you did a masters is another year, then say at least a year completing the FE1's, and assuming you get a training contract to go to Blackhall pretty much as soon as you have the FE1's passed, that's 3 years already. Then, including PPC1 you're looking at 2 and a half years till qualification, that's 5 and a half years in total. Granted you could get a training contract that pays your Law Society fees and provides a great salary while training. But that's mostly only the top firms that offer that kind of package though. A lot of small and medium sized firms only pay the Law Society recommended salary (which is minimum wage) and don't pay the fees.

People don't understand that diploma's/degree's/master's in law are very much different than working in law. You won't be citing case law on a daily basis etc. while working in the legal profession. It is very much procedural work and following the rules of the courts etc. for litigation for example. This kind of stuff isn't taught really on degree courses.

I'd suggest doing a few weeks work experience in a firm and see if you will really like the work.

I would also suggest not to bother with a diploma or masters in law either unless you do indeed have a huge interest in it - you don't need a degree in law to do the FE1's, just a level 8 degree in any discipline. As you already have a degree doing a diploma or masters in law will only really help when it comes to the FE1's. You would be better off spending the money on doing a prep course for the FE1's - you could also work pretty much full time while doing the prep course if you wanted. I would also get my hands on some second hand manuals from the prep courses on adverts.ie, it would give you an insight on what you would need to be studying.

Manach

In the course I did, there were many people of about that age gaining a degree for a change in employment or else to enhance their current career given the importance of an understanding of law.

Twinings2016

chops018 wrote: »

Just be aware. If you did that DIT diploma thing then that's one year, then if you did a masters is another year, then say at least a year completing the FE1's, and assuming you get a training contract to go to Blackhall pretty much as soon as you have the FE1's passed, that's 3 years already. Then, including PPC1 you're looking at 2 and a half years till qualification, that's 5 and a half years in total. Granted you could get a training contract that pays your Law Society fees and provides a great salary while training. But that's mostly only the top firms that offer that kind of package though. A lot of small and medium sized firms only pay the Law Society recommended salary (which is minimum wage) and don't pay the fees.

People don't understand that diploma's/degree's/master's in law are very much different than working in law. You won't be citing case law on a daily basis etc. while working in the legal profession. It is very much procedural work and following the rules of the courts etc. for litigation for example. This kind of stuff isn't taught really on degree courses.

I'd suggest doing a few weeks work experience in a firm and see if you will really like the work.

I would also suggest not to bother with a diploma or masters in law either unless you do indeed have a huge interest in it - you don't need a degree in law to do the FE1's, just a level 8 degree in any discipline. As you already have a degree doing a diploma or masters in law will only really help when it comes to the FE1's. You would be better off spending the money on doing a prep course for the FE1's - you could also work pretty much full time while doing the prep course if you wanted. I would also get my hands on some second hand manuals from the prep courses on adverts.ie, it would give you an insight on what you would need to be studying.

Thanks for that advice!! Do you think a prep course would be enough to prepare for the FE1s with no prior knowledge in law? I was considering the graduate diploma as I thought it would look good on my CV in addition to prepping me. I'm starting to look for work experience now, that's also a major priority for me. Thanks again for the response.

LegallyAbroad

Twinings2016 wrote: »

Thanks for that advice!! Do you think a prep course would be enough to prepare for the FE1s with no prior knowledge in law? I was considering the graduate diploma as I thought it would look good on my CV in addition to prepping me. I'm starting to look for work experience now, that's also a major priority for me. Thanks again for the response.

Do bear in mind that the Top 50 take on about 150, so it's not unattainable, between them every year and they pay all your fees, FE1s etc., and pay what will amount (I'd imagine given your industry and age) to a payrise for the duration of your traineeship.

Twinings2016

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

Twinings2016 wrote: »

Thanks for that advice!! Do you think a prep course would be enough to prepare for the FE1s with no prior knowledge in law? I was considering the graduate diploma as I thought it would look good on my CV in addition to prepping me. I'm starting to look for work experience now, that's also a major priority for me. Thanks again for the response.

Do bear in mind that the Top 50 take on about 150, so it's not unattainable, between them every year and they pay all your fees, FE1s etc., and pay what will amount (I'd imagine given your industry and age) to a payrise for the duration of your traineeship.

[font=tahoma, sans-serif]So you think.. to (attempt) get into one of these Top 50 and THEN FE1s etc will follow. Hopefully they consider Arts graduates [/font]

LegallyAbroad

Twinings2016 wrote: »

[font=tahoma, sans-serif]So you think.. to (attempt) get into one of these Top 50 and THEN FE1s etc will follow. Hopefully they consider Arts graduates [/font]

They do consider Arts graduates. I know people who trained in top 5 firms (including some who are now partners) with non-law degrees (including English, in fact, if I'd to pick non-law degrees that are useful, I'd go with English and History).

I'd certainly apply to the milkrounds next year. If you get a contract, you're laughing, if you don't, you're no worse off.

Twinings2016

That's really great advice LegallyAbroad! I'll definitely apply and take it from there at least. Thanks a lot!

impr0v

Just to provide a note of caution: with the qualifications and work experience that you describe, you will struggle to make it to interview stage with any sizeable firm.

If you have 600 points in your LC, or if the publishing you were involved in was legal publishing, then you might have a chance. But you seem to have no legal education, no FE1s, no relevant internships, and nothing to evidence your interest in the law. You will be up against hundreds of smart and driven people who have been working towards this application process for a number of years, with some or all of the above boxes, and more, ticked. Big firms get swamped with applications - hundreds of CVs every year. They filter them fairly ruthlessly before inviting people to interview - see the threads in this forum about the milkrounds, where posters talk about the multiple PFO's they have received.

My aim here is not to discourage you. It is to temper your expectations. 28 is definitely not too late to change and, presented correctly, your relative maturity can be an advantage.

The diploma you propose is not going to be a great advantage. I suggest passing all of the FE1s under your own steam before applying. Try to supplement this with relevant internships, or something similar to show that you are serious about this process. Then approach the application process itself intelligently. Do your research and customise your application to each firm to which you apply - you'd be amazed how many of them are cut and paste applications. It matters to firms that you show interest in their business. Demonstrate that you are alive to topical issues in the profession (e.g.: Brexit and the potential influx of UK firms; the threat posed to the profession by technology, like predictive coding in discovery and other machine-learning applications in due diligence; on-going changes in the legal services regulatory environment, etc.).

Something you could also consider is the Kings Inns. Doing their legal studies diploma and BL degree would be very costly, and a significant time commitment, but you would be a qualified lawyer in three years; significantly quicker than via the more traditional FE1 and traineeship route. You can then either devil, if you can afford it, or attempt to secure a job in a firm - whether as a paralegal, legal executive, or associate. Re the latter: some firms will take a chance on the right candidate from a BL background. If you can't find one of those opportunities, you can attempt to convert a paralegal or legal executive role into something better over time.

This might seem daunting. It is supposed to be - the profession is a protected one. With perseverance, hard work, the necessary aptitude and ability, and a dose of luck, you can make it. Best of luck.

hullaballoo

^^Good post generally but I would not advocate going the BL route as a roundabout way of becoming a solicitor. Unless you are a lottery winner and have money to burn there is no sense in it - the BL degree alone is €15,000.

It would better serve the OP to do the diploma and use that as a basis to work as a paralegal or something like that. The BL would have no additional benefit imo.

Twinings2016

hullaballoo wrote: »

^^Good post generally but I would not advocate going the BL route as a roundabout way of becoming a solicitor. Unless you are a lottery winner and have money to burn there is no sense in it - the BL degree alone is 15,000.

It would better serve the OP to do the diploma and use that as a basis to work as a paralegal or something like that. The BL would have no additional benefit imo.

Hi Hullaballo,
Do you mean to undertake the diploma at DIT? I understand I need some education and work experience in this field before I even think of a traineeship. However, I'm pretty determined. So hopefully that'll stand to me.
Cheers!

hullaballoo

Twinings2016 wrote: »

Hi Hullaballo,
Do you mean to undertake the diploma at DIT? I understand I need some education and work experience in this field before I even think of a traineeship. However, I'm pretty determined. So hopefully that'll stand to me.
Cheers!

I don't know anything about the diploma in DIT but it probably doesn't matter where you do it. I have just heard that the King's Inns dip is quite good.

I know people who have just committed to doing the FE1s with no legal qualifications and have gotten into big firms. However, I personally believe that you need a couple of years of study to gain a proper understanding of the law as opposed to spending a few months just learning what you need to know to pass the FE1s. Not that knowing enough to pass the FE1s is easy, it isn't. Just that it is better to have rounded and broad legal knowledge before your vocational training in Blackhall.

Claw Hammer

There is no longer a Diploma at the DIT. There is a BA (Ordinary) in law, The Kings Inns Diploma is very expensive given that it is only a preparation for the entrance exam to the Kings Inns degree course. The DIT course is much better value and many people have gone on to pass the FE!s from it. There are also many FE1 preparatory courses available. Many have very good materials and lectures. No reason why a graduate should not consider those as it would get them into sitting the FE1s at an early stage..

Twinings2016

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There is no longer a Diploma at the DIT. There is a BA (Ordinary) in law, The Kings Inns Diploma is very expensive given that it is only a preparation for the entrance exam to the Kings Inns degree course. The DIT course is much better value and many people have gone on to pass the FE!s from it. There are also many FE1 preparatory courses available. Many have very good materials and lectures. No reason why a graduate should not consider those as it would get them into sitting the FE1s at an early stage..

Hi Claw Hammer, there's no longer a graduate diploma in DIT? Did you mean there's no longer a diploma in King's Inn? Sorry, just want to be clear! Thanks for your response.

Claw Hammer

Twinings2016 wrote: »

Hi Claw Hammer, there's no longer a graduate diploma in DIT? Did you mean there's no longer a diploma in King's Inn? Sorry, just want to be clear! Thanks for your response.

There is only a post graduate diploma in law in DIT. Kings Inns has a diploma still.

GusherING

I'm 31 and a recently qualified solicitor. I started the BA (Ord) in Law in DIT while working in September 2010. My undergrad was in Arts so had no background in law. The BA (Ord) was an evening degree, whereas the Diploma in Law was full-time postgrad course so I went with the BA due to my work commitments. Aside from having to write a thesis for the Diploma, I think the content was broadly the same in that it covered all the key FE1 subject areas.

A few years into the degree I decided to do the FE1s and apply for training contracts with the big firms. I got offered a training contract in one firm having done 6 of the FE1s while working full-time in a pretty stressful job.

Having been in your shoes a few years back, my comments would be:

1) Like you I thought I needed a degree to law to sit the FE1s. It helped but in retrospect it wasn't vital. The FE1s can be passed with hard work and focussed effort. I ended up sitting my last two FE1s (in Equity and EU law) before I actually finished those subjects in DIT as, having been offered a training contract I wanted to push on with it, rather than wait to finish my law degree (I did eventually finish the law degree but it was after I had done all the FE1s).

2) I think I was lucky to get a big firm training contract at 28/29 years of age. I think at 28 you can bring advantages that a recent graduate cannot but I also think the big firms want to "mould" people too and that can go against you also. A lot will come down to your educational and career track record, personality and willingness to work hard. That said, there were three or four people in my intake around my age.

3) In recent years, a lot of the big firms are recruiting more and more trainees who have done summer internships. I can see why they do this but a knock on is that they have fewer places for maturer applicants like yourself.

4) Getting qualified takes time. Life moves on - looking back over the last 5/6 years I realise I had to make a lot of sacrifices (financial and personal) to get qualified. It's worked out well now but as someone else said, getting qualified is a big task. For me, I'm not sure I would have persevered with it if I didn't think I could dramatically increase my earning power once I qualified in a big firm. If I was working in a small rural practice and making less or the same money as in my previous career after sitting 27 exams in 5/6 years (between DIT, FE1s and Blackhall), I'm not sure it would have been a good use of my time.

Hope the above helps.