Why in 2016 is a prayer said at the start of every single Dáil sitting?

Atlantic Dawn

It's 2016, why is there a prayer said at the start of every single sitting of Dáil Éireann? Do the church own the country or what?

NIMAN

Yes. Yes they do.
They own the schools, and can say you can't have a drink on Good Friday.

Seth Brundle

NIMAN wrote: »

and can say you can't have a drink on Good Friday.

I can actually have a drink on good Friday.
Just not in the comfort of a pub!

afatbollix

They do the same in the UK government so it's not just our lads who do it.

me_right_one

Because, you know, most people actually believe in God.

Atlantic Dawn

me_right_one wrote: »

Because, you know, most people actually believe in God.

Any facts to back that up?

maudgonner

I wouldn't be the biggest fan of the involvement & influence of the church on politics & public services in Ireland, but this seems to be one of the least harmful manifestations of that.

Bigger issues to be worried about, this one isn't really doing any damage.

me_right_one

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/saveselections.asp

Peregrinus

If only we had proper separation of church and state, like in the US. Then we could have a clergyman paid to act as full-time chaplain to the Dail, and another for the Seanad.

Parliamentary prayers are common internationally. The reason we have them in Ireland is because we inherited our parliamentary traditions from Westminster.

(And, on a nitpick, there is no Catholic church rule banning alcohol on Good Friday. As far as the Catholic church is concerned it's a day of fast, so only one meal, and a day of abstinence, so no meat. That's it. The only ban on the sale of alcohol is from the state. And if I'm not mistaken we inherited that from the British too.)

Blaming the church for things that are actually our own responsibility is a favourite Irish pastime. It saves us from having to do anything about them.

My name is URL

maudgonner wrote: »

I wouldn't be the biggest fan of the involvement & influence of the church on politics & public services in Ireland, but this seems to be one of the least harmful manifestations of that.

Bigger issues to be worried about, this one isn't really doing any damage.

I mean if there's ever to be a real separation of church and state, it seems to me like the natural place to start would be by getting rid of that prayer. Or maybe the opening few paragraphs of our constitution

I agree that it's harmless though, and can't see it changing any time soon

Atlantic Dawn

What will it take to get rid of the prayer, a referendum?

Peregrinus

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

What will it take to get rid of the prayer, a referendum?

Nothing so drastic; a change in the standing orders of Dail Eireann will do the trick.

Write to your TD and tell him you're pissed off about this. If enough people write to enough TDs the message will get through and at the next revision of the standing orders the prayer requirement will be dropped.

Atlantic Dawn

Peregrinus wrote: »

Nothing so drastic; a change in the standing orders of Dail Eireann will do the trick.

Write to your TD and tell him you're pissed off about this. If enough people write to enough TDs the message will get through and at the next revision of the standing orders the prayer requirement will be dropped.

Will do, I don't pay my taxes for this kind of out and out backward rubbish every single day to be taken at my expense. How they laugh at Healy-Rae for saying Nukes caused climate change and then say a prayer before starting work while at work every day is beyond me.

maudgonner

My name is URL wrote: »

I mean if there's ever to be a real separation of church and state, it seems to me like the natural place to start would be by getting rid of that prayer. Or maybe the opening few paragraphs of our constitution

I agree that it's harmless though, and can't see it changing any time soon

Changing the constitution is a completely different thing than getting rid of a prayer in the Dáil though. It would actually have an effect, would be a meaningful move.

I don't see the impact of getting rid of a prayer before Dáil sessions as being anywhere in the same league as that, so it seems a bit of a pointless thing to worry about.

Carlos Orange

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Any facts to back that up?

Feel free to link to a legitimate survey that doesn't show the majority of people in Ireland believe in a god.

me_right_one

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Will do, I don't pay my taxes for this kind of out and out backward rubbish every single day to be taken at my expense. How they laugh at Healy-Rae for saying Nukes caused climate change and then say a prayer before starting work while at work every day is beyond me.

3,525,573 Irish people might disagree with you.

Atlantic Dawn

Why don't we then have a prayer at the start of every days work if pretty much the entire population of Ireland believe in god, what about a prayer every morning at 9am?

Peregrinus

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Will do, I don't pay my taxes for this kind of out and out backward rubbish every single day to be taken at my expense. How they laugh at Healy-Rae for saying Nukes caused climate change and then say a prayer before starting work while at work every day is beyond me.

Yeah, but if you don't contact your TDs about this how are they ever going to know how you feel?

Atlantic Dawn

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yeah, but if you don't contact your TDs about this how are they ever going to know how you feel?

I will CC them all tomorrow to see what the vibe is.

up for anything

me_right_one wrote: »

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/saveselections.asp

me_right_one wrote: »

3,525,573 Irish people might disagree with you.

I don't think ticking the RC box on the census form really equates to a belief in god.

me_right_one

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why don't we then have a prayer at the start of every days work if pretty much the entire population of Ireland believe in god, what about a prayer every morning at 9am?

Most people do it at home.

up for anything wrote: »

I don't think ticking the RC box on the census form really equates to a belief in god.

Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaah. Ok

Peregrinus

up for anything wrote: »

I don't think ticking the RC box on the census form really equates to a belief in god.

What you think doesn't really matter, though, does it? What matters is what the people ticking the box think.

FWIW, academic social research confirms that a majority of Irish people do believe in God. The European Values Survey, for example, shows that 90% of self-identified Catholics in Ireland believe in God. (The other 10% are a bit anomalous, you might think, but this cuts both ways; nearly half of those who identify as having "no religion" do believe in God.)

But this is not really relevant. It's entirely possible to believe in God, but also t believe that it's inappropriate for the legislature of a pluralist republic to engage in prayer. Even if it's true that a majority of the Irish people believe in God it doesn't follow that a majority favour prayers in Dail Eireann.

My name is URL

maudgonner wrote: »

Changing the constitution is a completely different thing than getting rid of a prayer in the Dáil though. It would actually have an effect, would be a meaningful move.

I don't see the impact of getting rid of a prayer before Dáil sessions as being anywhere in the same league as that, so it seems a bit of a pointless thing to worry about.

It wouldn't have any effect. People would vote against it because changing the constitution is a big deal to them, or because they just automatically oppose any constitutional change put forward by the government of the day. It wouldn't have any impact on anyone's lives, so why vote to change?

If there was a referendum on removing that prayer from the constitution, I'd vote in favor. But I know for a fact that most wouldn't. And even holding such a plebiscite would be needlessly divisive and lead to more people becoming more entrenched in the view that they previously didn't think much about.

It's like the dopes that want a simple 'yes or no' vote on the issue of abortions. Failing to see the nuances in, and choosing to be ignorant of ramifications of their decision.

SixSixSix

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Will do, I don't pay my taxes for this kind of out and out backward rubbish every single day to be taken at my expense. How they laugh at Healy-Rae for saying Nukes caused climate change and then say a prayer before starting work while at work every day is beyond me.

I thought he said "God above is in charge of the weather and we here can’t do anything about it" so even more reason to pray at ever opportunity.:(

NIMAN

I honestly didn't know they said a prayer each day. Rather sad.

Then again, we still have the Angelus on the radio twice a day.

Peregrinus

For the record, as well as prayers at the start of each day's sitting in Westminster, the Northern Ireland Assembly has a period each day called "prayers" but no prayers are said aloud; the period is used for silent prayer or reflecction. The Scottish Parliament doesn't have daily prayers, but it does have a weekly "Time for Reflection", which is an address to parliament on issues of faith delivered by an invited speaker. Speakers are chosen to represent the balance of religious beliefs according to the Scottish census. There are no prayers in the Welsh Assembly.

Local governments in England and Wales may open their meetings with a prayer, and many do, but there are no hard figures on how many do, and how many do not. Some have a roster of local clergymen who come in to lead the prayer. There have been a couple of court cases about this, but the practice is lawful. Some local governments in Northern Ireland, and a few in the Republic, open their meetings with prayers, but most do not. I don't know if there have been court challenges to the practice.

There are parliamentary prayers in the Australian federal parliament, and in the Parliaments of all Australian states and territories. Canada has daily prayers in the federal parliament, and in most provincial parliaments. In New Zealand there is a daily parliamentary prayer, and frequent but not daily Maori religious observances. South Africa doesn't have prayer, but does have a daily period of silent reflection. In the US, congressional prayers (and congressional chaplains) have already been mentioned; nearly all state legislatures also have daily prayers.

On the European mainland, parliaments mostly don't have prayers (though Finland is an exception; there are weekly parliamentary prayers) but about half of the Parliaments in Europe provide a chapel or prayer room or similar, and in many of these there are regular religious services celebrated. In Norway, Poland and the UK there are parliamentary chaplains; in Norway and the UK they are paid by the taxpayer.

This is precisely that sort of low-cost liberal issue which the clique who constitute the Irish media adore going on and on and on about. How the right love such distractions from what's really happening.

Meanwhile we live in a society where the biggest story of the past 30-40 years is that the rich have got far richer, and inequality has grown hugely. That house in Dublin that a single income family could have purchased in 1965 now needs both parents to work for. Why? Because, for starters, the rich lobbied for less regulation and caps on lending were removed/lowered thus more money became available to borrow thus house prices rose exponentially thus two incomes are now necessary and children cannot have one parent at home to raise them. What a revolutionary change in society that is getting much, much worse. Google "generational inequality" and your eyes will start to open at the bigger picture.

And yet ad nauseam our media will circle jerk about their latest rightwing liberal distraction like this and all sorts of touched emotionally unstable sorts in need of a cause get carried away. Follow the money. Always.

andekwarhola

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why don't we then have a prayer at the start of every days work if pretty much the entire population of Ireland believe in god, what about a prayer every morning at 9am?

Because you'd probably sleep through it on account of staying up on the internet all night Fightin' The Fight.