Is this price reasonable?

cormie

Hey folks,
Posting for a friend who wants to get a new heating system on an old house they have just purchased. The old system needs work anyway so best just to replace the whole thing.

They want to get a combi boiler and eventually, a few years down the line, solar when they can afford to get it installed. For now the heating system is pretty important to get done though and they have only had one proper quote, but it seems kinda high.

If the boiler is say €1,500 and the rest of the materials maybe €500, then it's 2.5K labour for maybe 3 days work?

Link to diagram of work to be done here: https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/19234/401190.png

Any feedback would be great.

Also, if it is overpriced, I'd welcome any recommendations of someone around North Dublin who could do it soon, who is registered, insured etc


NOTE: Diagram pipe layout was drawn by me and is just reflective of position of piping I know about but does not reflect different pipes for hot/cold/heating etc, only where the actual pipes are

Pete67

I'm not sure why a combi boiler would be specified if there is an intention to install solar down the line? Solar will need a storage cylinder anyway so it might make more sense to upgrade the cylinder to a dual coil one now, and install a standard boiler.

Anyway, my standard advice is to get at least three quotes, taking to opportunity to get advice from a number of installers, and then decide on the type of system to be installed, taking account of current needs and future upgrade plans.

cormie

Thanks Pete, the idea was to have the solar powering the combi boiler itself so it wouldn't be using as much gas/grid electricity and at the same time freeing up storage space in the house and only heating water as it's needed.

The problem here is my friend is under a bit of time pressure and has had two plumbers out to quote but one of them won't pick up the phone and there's not much time left before they are meant to be moving in.

Is it impossible to quote for a job like this, even a rough figure, accurate to within €500 or so, without visiting the house?

Dtp1979

At a rough guess. 10k.
First major alarm bell is " chemical flush".
To be honest, if any plumber is scamming a customer with this rubbish then I wouldn't even waste my time with them.

Pete67

Is your friend considering a solar PV system to generate electricity or one to directly heat water for storage? These are two very different systems. PV systems are becoming more popular in new builds as they reduce energy costs by contributing to the electrical demand of the house when the sun shines. Currently in Ireland ESBN do not purchase excess electricty from domestic users, even though this energy is exported to the grid when there is a surplus, so the payback time for these systems is extremely long.

Solar water heating on the other hand can be quite effective even in Ireland, and can often go a long way towards providing all the hot water required for washing and showers etc, although the payback time will still be many years. This will require a hot water storage cylinder with dual coils, one for the solar system, and a second to be heated by the boiler when there is insufficient suinshine available. It will almost certainly not be capable of providing heating for the house. If he wants to go down this route at some point in the future then it does not make sense to install a combi boiler now.

cormie

Thanks for the replies. Are you suggesting that an upgrade like this should cost 10k and not 4.3k??? That sounds crazy, what's the cost for, if it's 2k in materials and about 3 days work?

Pete, yep, I think Photovalic or whatever it's called is what was suggested by another user on boards, Sir Liamalot, so when I heard the plumber mention this I thought it was a good sign.

So I think the Worcester Bosch 28 CDI compact combi can be powered directly by the PV cells or something?

To be honest I'm not sure of how it will work in symbiosis with the rest of the PV system when they get around to installing it? I think I've confused myself furthermore here?

Dtp1979

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. Are you suggesting that an upgrade like this should cost 10k and not 4.3k??? That sounds crazy, what's the cost for, if it's 2k in materials and about 3 days work?

Pete, yep, I think Photovalic or whatever it's called is what was suggested by another user on boards, Sir Liamalot, so when I heard the plumber mention this I thought it was a good sign.

So I think the Worcester Bosch 28 CDI compact combi can be powered directly by the PV cells or something?

To be honest I'm not sure of how it will work in symbiosis with the rest of the PV system when they get around to installing it? I think I've confused myself furthermore here?

Sorry my mistake I thought all the rads and pipework were being replaced. But I stand by my opinion on the chemical flush thingy

cormie

I'm not sure what alarm bells are ringing because the chemical flush? If it's an old system and needs to be flushed with installation of a new boiler, is it not just that they are cleaning it out before refilling it or something?

So is 4.3k reasonable for the listed work do you reckon?

I'm still confused about where the solar comes into play here. I thought it was something to do with the combi boiler being compatible to be powered directly from solar or something like that?

Dtp1979

cormie wrote: »

I'm not sure what alarm bells are ringing because the chemical flush? If it's an old system and needs to be flushed with installation of a new boiler, is it not just that they are cleaning it out before refilling it or something?

Yes but what you're talking about is a powerflush, not a chemical flush. These cowboys charge the same for a half arsed job and call it a chemical flush. The customer sees the words chemical flush and they think they're getting their system cleaned out. When in reality the cowboy is putting in a cheap bottle of cleaner, turning on the Boiler for an hour and draining the system.

cormie

Is there another thing called a chemical flush though, which is a lot more involved labour wise?

Just got a quote from another builder and for the same work, he's quoting €4,800

replace the current gas boiler with the new combi boiler which will already be solar/ PV panels compatible -3500
- remove the cylinder tank from one of bedrooms -850
- tidy up the pipes in the warderobe after the cylinder is gone incl
- tidy up the pipes behind the fireplace 450
- remove the current basin/ toilette/ bath and install the new ones 1100
- remove the radiator from the kitchen 180
- install the external tap outside the kitchen on the external wall for both cold and hot water 120

Those in bold aren't icnluded in the €4,300 price from the guy I refer to in the OP.

So probably go with the guy who provided the quote in the OP. I just don't know if he's tricking us to think there's a more expensive boiler that will connect with Solar somehow?

Pete67

I think that the solar discussion is a red herring at the moment, if he is considering installing a PV solar system in future. The PV solar panels will save a certain amount of electricity during the day in good weather, but a modern boiler does not consume very much electricity anyway (and none of it contributes to heating the house) so this will not result in any reduction in heating bills no matter what boiler is installed. Any boiler is compatible with a PV solar system, as is any other electrical equipment in the home that uses a 230V supply. But don't expect to save on heating bills.

On the other hand, a solar water heating system will heat domestic hot water fairly well if properly designed and installed, but this type of system would not be compatible with a Combi boiler, and it would not be possible to convert the hot press into a storage area, as a hot water cylinder would be required. By providing most domestic hot water requirements via solar, a 20% approx reduction in gas or oil consumption could be expected.

Your friend needs to make sure he understands what he wants to do now and in the future before spending significant amounts of money on upgrades to the existing system. Best of luck.

cormie

Pete67 wrote: »

I think that the solar discussion is a red herring at the moment, if he is considering installing a PV solar system in future. The PV solar panels will save a certain amount of electricity during the day in good weather, but a modern boiler does not consume very much electricity anyway (and none of it contributes to heating the house) so this will not result in any reduction in heating bills no matter what boiler is installed. Any boiler is compatible with a PV solar system, as is any other electrical equipment in the home that uses a 230V supply. But don't expect to save on heating bills.

On the other hand, a solar water heating system will heat domestic hot water fairly well if properly designed and installed, but this type of system would not be compatible with a Combi boiler, and it would not be possible to convert the hot press into a storage area, as a hot water cylinder would be required. By providing most domestic hot water requirements via solar, a 20% approx reduction in gas or oil consumption could be expected.

Your friend needs to make sure he understands what he wants to do now and in the future before spending significant amounts of money on upgrades to the existing system. Best of luck.

Thanks again for the input on this! Ok, this is what I was afraid of, that without a cylinder, there's no way a PV system can contribute to any savings with a combi boiler, only savings with electricity, but I guess to save on Electricity, you'd need the solar to be charging a powerpack battery, like the ones Tesla do, is this right?

So in essence, there's no way the combi boiler can benefit from a PV solar install and the €500 or so extra that the plumber was quoting for a solar compatible boiler, is not going towards a solar compatible boiler, as they don't exist? I saw this: http://www.thegreenage.co.uk/can-i-still-get-solar-thermal-with-a-combi-boiler/ but this is with a Solar Termal setup, which from what I gather, is different to PV and isn't what my friend wants, so again, the solar compatible combi boiler isn't a component here as it doesn't exist and it's just a case of having water heated elsewhere entering the boiler to require less gas to heat said water?

Am I correct with all the above?

It's either have a cylinder to take advantage of solar for heating, or have no advantage to the combi boiler through solar?

Pete67

The PV system saves electricity only if you have an electrical demand at the time that there is good sunshine. If the PV panels are generating more than the current demand in the house, there will be no units counted on the ESB meter, and the excess is fed back into the grid. This saves some energy costs but the payback period will be extremely long.

It is technically feasible to store electrical energy in batteries, but this is rarely done except in off-grid systems where there is no mains supply available. It would not be economic in a regular house due to the size and cost of the batteries, their limited life, and inefficiences in charging and discharging them.

There are some combi boilers coming on the market that can accept pre-heated water from a solar hot water system, thereby reducing gas consumption, and this is probably what your installer is proposing. However you would still need an unvented cylinder for storing hot water heated by a solar thermal system. (which is not a PV system!) In theory this could be added later if the boiler was suitable.

cormie

Thanks a lot for the continued input.

Ah, feeding it back into the grid could be better than storing it in batteris, let them take care of the storage and you just end up with a cheaper bill as you've been feeding some and taking some as opposed to just taking.


Well I had an extremely helpful phone call from a guy a poster on this thread recommended I try, who is also a user of these forums too I found out

We actually spoke over the phone for 91 minutes :eek:

So given my friend wants to prioritise doing the wall and making the bathroom less manky, I think the best thing to do is put up with the current system over winter until they are ready and can afford the heating system upgrade.

The idea would then be similar to described before, tank in attic and pump, pumping water to the combi boiler which will then send it through the hot taps.

He confirmed a power flush is much more effective than a chemical flush!

He also said for the bathroom upgrade, as the bath will be used mainly as a shower, to install steel instead of acrylic as it won't dip over several years the way acrylic can.

Another tip was to check batch number on job lot tiles and make sure they are all from the same batch there isn't any crazy difference in shading once they are up .

Any questions welcome and anything I've forgotten or misunderstood, please let me know

NOTE: Diagram pipe layout was drawn by me and is just reflective of position of piping I know about but does not reflect different pipes for hot/cold/heating etc, only where the actual pipes are

ted1

Pete67 wrote: »

Is your friend considering a solar PV system to generate electricity or one to directly heat water for storage? These are two very different systems. PV systems are becoming more popular in new builds as they reduce energy costs by contributing to the electrical demand of the house when the sun shines. Currently in Ireland ESBN do not purchase excess electricty from domestic users, even though this energy is exported to the grid when there is a surplus, so the payback time for these systems is extremely long.

Solar water heating on the other hand can be quite effective even in Ireland, and can often go a long way towards providing all the hot water required for washing and showers etc, although the payback time will still be many years. This will require a hot water storage cylinder with dual coils, one for the solar system, and a second to be heated by the boiler when there is insufficient suinshine available. It will almost certainly not be capable of providing heating for the house. If he wants to go down this route at some point in the future then it does not make sense to install a combi boiler now.

Excess PV can be used to heat water. Excess thermal is dumped , in my opinion solar PV is the better option.


As mentioned you'll need a tank.

Another thing to think of is the future shower in the drawings , many combis can't do two showers at once.

cormie

ted1 wrote: »

Excess PV can be used to heat water. Excess thermal is dumped , in my opinion solar PV is the better option.


As mentioned you'll need a tank.

Another thing to think of is the future shower in the drawings , many combis can't do two showers at once.

I think the preferred option is for a system without a tank. The long term plan is there will be max 2 people in the house and some dogs, so not much hot water usage so probably better to heat on demand than to store, also less space required for tank storage.

A combi was suggested as a solution for having 2 showers running concurrently, the initial idea was to get electric showers installed, but we were told it wasn't possible to have 2 going at the same time due to the supply from ESB?



Had two guys in about the bathroom refit. I was explaining the situation as best as I could (it's getting pretty confusing at this stage ), but it turns out that the piping isn't sending the feed down from the boiler, to the rads and then UP the chimney to the upstairs rads and cylinder, but the piping actually goes directly up from the current boiler and across to the cylinder and back down the chimney to heat the downstairs rads. The water feed is then going from the cylinder, into the front bedroom and routed around where the wardrobes are. The wardrobes have raised flooring to allow the piping to sit on the same floor level that's outside the wardrobe (ex council house, plumbers said they box everything) and the piping is under the raised level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdUZMwFqn-I

You can then see from the above video the boxing in the left corner of the bath, the piping comes down here and is feeding the bathroom water supply.



So given that ideally all work would be done together (boiler install and bathroom), but that this isn't possible due to budget, the ideal end solution can still be achieved by extending the pipes that drop down from the wardrobe, to the window wall in the bathroom (so the front of the house) and drop them down there, to put insulation on the inside front wall and to hide the pipes behind this so there'd be no boxing and no gap between the bath and wall (wall to wall is currently 1580, bath that's being bought is 1500). The pipes for the future upstairs bathroom can be raised up also through the insulation and left beneath the main floor level.

There would also be a feed put through to the kitchen for the hot water there.

Once the boiler is installed, the piping in the wardrobe under the raised floor can be blanked and removed, so if the wardrobes may one day be removed, the whole room can have the same level floor.

The whole bathroom suite will be replaced and the toilet removed and ground dug to allow for waste pipes to be rerouted properly (current toilet has them going into ground). The sink will swap sides with the toilet and the wardrobe removed and the sink put in its place on the window wall with mirror facing the kitchen. This will leave a clear path from door to bath and more floor space. My original idea was to have the sink where the radiator is, the toilet opposite it and then use the space behind the door for tumble dryer or similar, but I think it'd be too cramped and tight to walk between sink/toilet/bath, plus it's more epensive to put a waste pipe for the sink on this side then too.

A waste pipe can then also be extended between the bathroom wall facing the hallway and the front door (there is a useless corner here which would be used to house the toilet waste pipe and capped until a time it is to be fed upstairs).

I think I've understood the explanations and have described the plan accurately enough above.

The end result anyway is that the bathroom can be done now (this is the owners priority, as you can see, it's a bit manky and smells bad too so is a priority) for the same price it would cost to do at the same time as everything else and can be future proofed for boiler installation and upstairs shower/toilet so it doesn't have to be done at the same time as everything else and can be done now with the limited budget.


EDIT: I forgot to mention above, the plumber suggested not to put the pump in the attic, but to build a little press for the combi boiler and to have the pump right underneath the boiler. He said if you put the pump in the attic, the noise will vibrate through the whole house, in particular the bedrooms and that if it's put underneath the combi boiler itself, it'll be less noisy overall?

whizbang

to put insulation on the inside front wall and to hide the pipes behind this

No, No NO NO No.

This is insulating the pipes from the house, and therefore exposing them to outside temperatures.

cormie

Sorry, I meant the pipes would be ran in the actual insulation, so they should be kept snug. Say if it was 100mm, this should be more than enough room to keep the pipes in, without having to put them in the actual wall.

Sleeper12

ted1 wrote: »

Excess PV can be used to heat water. Excess thermal is dumped , in my opinion solar PV is the better option.

Totally agree. I've been reading a lot on this lately. All you will ever save with solar is a tank of water each day €1/ €1.50 per day
If you could only sell back to the system I'd jump at PV

cormie

Hey folks,
I've drawn up what I think will be close enough to the final plan for the heating upgrade to the house.

Would appreciate any input on it.

Rather than zoning with the plumbers supplied thermostats, I'm suggesting to go with Google Nest which will add a bit to the price, but not too much considering thermostats will need to be purchased anyway.