Life after Chalara

JohnBoy

I wont clutter the main thread with this.

We have ash dieback and have begun the removal process. This then brings us on to what to do next?

I'd love to tell the department to take a walk, but the forester reckons not a chance, they'll happily take a repayment of our grant money but otherwise we're replanting.

Our problem is we really wanted to grow ash. we went with it on the basis that it had multiple sales points along the way. firewood from first thinnings, hurleys from second and hardwood when we're olde.

We didnt want to grow spruce, because to be honest they're ugly and there's enough of them in the country already.


Now our ash is fecked and we have to replant something.

Our options are go broadleaves again. Sycamore would produce firewood but little else really. Beech and Oak are for our grandkids probably.

What about birch? I believe this is now a grant aided species? It was planted with our ash as a nurse species and is thriving in our soil.

I know birch is used for plywood, but is there a market in ireland? I know we make a lot of OSB and MDF.



The other, left field option is agro-forestry. I dont know if we'd be let replant in it, but it's basically to plant at a much lower density, and use the ground between the trees for grazing or the like.

long term we could make use of it that way again and it might be a way of getting the land "back" but still having it as forestry


any thoughts folks?

timfromtang

Greetings John boy

Sycamore??? I would suggest that sycamore is much more than just Firewood, known as white maple in the timber trade worldwide it is a wonderful wood to work used for flooring and furniture, it is an acer after all.

I feel your pain concerning rotation length, ash rotations fit a lifetime nicely.

I would suggest a much more diverse mix on replanting, some long rotation oak and beech, some sycamore and birch for a shorter rotation return, and then some higher value stems walnut, wild cherry, lime, spanish chestnut, holly, resistant elm (available from some sources now), and any others you can think of. Such a mixture will require more intensive management, and you will need to nurture the high value stems carefully to get a good return.
Some Hazel at the edges will provide a yearly nut crop and useful sticks, Damsons and plums also for both high value wood and fruit, Forests have other outputs than timber, beginning to utilise these also could perhaps ease the pain of loosing your lovely ash.

we find ourselves in a similar situation here in tang see this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056779392&page=38

feel free to pm me and we can have a chat since we find ourselves in a similar situation.

tim

Vittu

JohnBoy wrote: »

I wont clutter the main thread with this.

We have ash dieback and have begun the removal process. This then brings us on to what to do next?

I'd love to tell the department to take a walk, but the forester reckons not a chance, they'll happily take a repayment of our grant money but otherwise we're replanting.

Our problem is we really wanted to grow ash. we went with it on the basis that it had multiple sales points along the way. firewood from first thinnings, hurleys from second and hardwood when we're olde.

We didnt want to grow spruce, because to be honest they're ugly and there's enough of them in the country already.


Now our ash is fecked and we have to replant something.

Our options are go broadleaves again. Sycamore would produce firewood but little else really. Beech and Oak are for our grandkids probably.

What about birch? I believe this is now a grant aided species? It was planted with our ash as a nurse species and is thriving in our soil.

I know birch is used for plywood, but is there a market in ireland? I know we make a lot of OSB and MDF.



The other, left field option is agro-forestry. I dont know if we'd be let replant in it, but it's basically to plant at a much lower density, and use the ground between the trees for grazing or the like.

long term we could make use of it that way again and it might be a way of getting the land "back" but still having it as forestry


any thoughts folks?

Birch is a pioneer species and so does it does well in most sites. Agro-forestry I think only pays a premium for 4 or 5 years.

Also I think changes are on the way regarding the reconstitution grant for Ash die back

99nsr125

By the grace of God, Ash around the farm is healthy so I haven't had to think about this too much but I have thought some about it

I've read on this but the re-planting strategy after infection seems unclear.
What species are allowed, what species will be grant aided etc . . .

Robinia Pseudoacacia is the clear winner for me
Deciduous Broadleaf
Nitrogen fixer like Alder
Class 1 durable - 25-40 years life in ground contact ( better than Oak apparently)
Hardwood 660kg/m3
Yield Class 10 (4-14) same as Ash
Already a forestry species in Germany, notably Hungary and surrounding countries
No notable diseases
A breeding history behind it.

Cricket Bat Willow would be a good alternative for Ash
for hurleys but forestry legislation could complicate this as it is an exempted
Species, would you be allowed, would you get grant funding etc . . .

Douglas fir is another alternative but as a conifer it might wreck the asthetics
of your plantation

SILVAMAN

99nsr125 wrote: »

Robinia Pseudoacacia is the clear winner for me........

No notable diseases

There's a big problem of Robinia dieback in the UK. Robinia also requires a well-drained soil.
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/Spfo/pubs/silvics_manual/volume_2/robinia/pseudoacacia.htm

Remember the old adage "the right trees in the right places".
Lists of trees and tree identification books are wonderful on paper, but unless the site is suited to what you plant, you're asking for trouble.
See what's growing well locally, in the hedgerows and the fields, and take that as your reference point.

timfromtang

SILVAMAN wrote: »

There's a big problem of Robinia dieback in the UK. Robinia also requires a well-drained soil.
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/Spfo/pubs/silvics_manual/volume_2/robinia/pseudoacacia.htm

Remember the old adage "the right trees in the right places".
Lists of trees and tree identification books are wonderful on paper, but unless the site is suited to what you plant, you're asking for trouble.
See what's growing well locally, in the hedgerows and the fields, and take that as your reference point.

The right tree in the right place, this is in my opinion sound advice, one simply has a good wander a round about locally, and see what species you can find growing that you'd like and are doing well.
Then pay attention to the aspect and soil type of the location of your favoured trees, with this knowledge species selection is much easier.

Do not ignore Gardens, Demense's etc, as it is in these places you may discover an "exotic" that might do well for "your" site,
also consider the variance in aspect and soil type on your own site when choosing, there may be a favourable microclimate (sunny sheltered spot for ex) for a particular species you have noticed growing well locally.
do not ignore shrub species and fruit trees, some of your edges will likely have favourable conditions for these kinds of tree and they can add additional non timber outputs to the forest.
lots of edge (i.e. curvy paths etc) will greatly increase the diversity possible and can also provide amenity benefits locally to those whom you may grant access, (our friends love to come and pick nuts and fruit, or indeed go for a walk with bushman or secateurs and collect materials for various craft activities) These kinds of forest outputs in my experience have all kinds of "knock on benefits".

tim

SILVAMAN

timfromtang wrote: »

The right tree in the right place, this is in my opinion sound advice, one simply has a good wander a round about locally, and see what species you can find growing that you'd like and are doing well.
Then pay attention to the aspect and soil type of the location of your favoured trees, with this knowledge species selection is much easier.

Do not ignore Gardens, Demense's etc, as it is in these places you may discover an "exotic" that might do well for "your" site,
also consider the variance in aspect and soil type on your own site when choosing, there may be a favourable microclimate (sunny sheltered spot for ex) for a particular species you have noticed growing well locally.
do not ignore shrub species and fruit trees, some of your edges will likely have favourable conditions for these kinds of tree and they can add additional non timber outputs to the forest.
lots of edge (i.e. curvy paths etc) will greatly increase the diversity possible and can also provide amenity benefits locally to those whom you may grant access, (our friends love to come and pick nuts and fruit, or indeed go for a walk with bushman or secateurs and collect materials for various craft activities) These kinds of forest outputs in my experience have all kinds of "knock on benefits".

tim

well said-would that all foresters had this outlook

taxusbaccata

White willow (Salix alba) seems to be a great alternative to ash - fast growing, likes wet soil (ie Ireland)

It is a native tree and looks beautiful with its long slender leaves.

If you can find some local trees get your cuttings now which root by just inserting into the ground.

Oldtree

taxusbaccata wrote: »

White willow (Salix alba) seems to be a great alternative to ash - fast growing, likes wet soil (ie Ireland)

It is a native tree and looks beautiful with its long slender leaves.

If you can find some local trees get your cuttings now which root by just inserting into the ground.

Goat willow does very well here, must be helped by the average yearly rainfall of 3m to Dublins 1m but the hedgerows do get a bit of rust in the summers.
Alder too

daithi55

not sure what area you are in but deer could become a problem at some stage.. any fire breaks lanes etc that you put in.. its a good idea to keep them cleared over the years..
i dont no how many times ive been asked to cull deer in forests only to find them overgrown .. firs, bracken, briars black thorn you name it will grow in them and take over

Blackcurrants

taxusbaccata wrote: »

White willow (Salix alba) seems to be a great alternative to ash - fast growing, likes wet soil (ie Ireland)

It is a lovely looking tree but I don't think there is much use for the timber unless you start making cricket bats. It's not good firewood either unfortunately. Cherry is probably the best native alternative for us and Sycamore as a non-native. Both will self seed well and grow quickly which will help to suppress brambles and regenerate your forestry allowing for a continuous supply of young trees. Grey squirrels may be a problem with the sycamore and deer browsing is always a problem with regen.

JohnBoy

Sorry folks, not been around in a while.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Where to start

Tim I hadnt realised Sycamore was maple, I know they're related but thought it was a different, and not well regarded wood. I probably have my auld lad to blame for that, he views it as a weed!

A couple of you have asked what grows well locally? Well number 1 would be ash sadly, two probably whitethorn and three would be sycamore.


Our site has been cleared of the ash now so it's time to actually do something about it. It's some sight at the moment, I walked 200m of it a few weeks back and got stuck three or four times.


I like the sound of cherry, what's it like to grow? wet enough site as you can see.


Has anyone any agroforestry experience? The five years premium wouldnt be the end of the world if we got most of the land back. I wonder could the department get their head around it though for an existing forestry plot.

SILVAMAN

JohnBoy wrote: »

Our site has been cleared of the ash now so it's time to actually do something about it. It's some sight at the moment, I walked 200m of it a few weeks back and got stuck three or four times.


I like the sound of cherry, what's it like to grow? wet enough site as you can see.

Whatever you plant, make sure you get the water off that site.
There's a lack of understanding of the importance of proper and effective drainage, and some foresters/companies will do the bare minimum because it's more grant money in their pocket. Open the old field drains-they were there for a reason-and tie in your mounding drainage system to remove the water.
Like any living organism, stressed trees are vulnerable to disease.

timfromtang

Howdy JohnBoy,
It sure looks like your topsoil has had a kicking, I would concur about sorting the drainage asap, perhaps you have access to some organic matter, compost ideally, but a mix of used mushroom compost and slurry would be good, I'd say most every living thing in that soil has just had it's world turned upside down, and a bit of organic matter anything that will humify would help all that life (essential to your soil health) get back to business so to speak and recover from the disturbance.

Concerning cherry, it is a bit difficult to grow well, and somewhat site demanding, but if pruned carefully, and grown with companion species with which it will thrive, (I'd suggest birch and oak and alder OTHERS FEEL FREE TO CHIP IN ON THIS ONE). Well Then cherry can be VERY financially rewarding as it is prized by cabinetmakers and as a bonus has a short (by tree standards) rotation.

Concerning Sycamore, also quite valuable in furniture quality sawlogs (again care needs to be taken with silviculture to achieve a large proportion of quality sawlogs)
If you are lucky some of your sycamore will turn out to have curly grain, this is difficult or impossible to spot in young trees, then you will have some very valuable stems indeed, as curly grained sycamore is valuable for veneer and musical instruments.

I would certainly suggest that you INSIST on an intimate mixture when replanting, rather than the monoculture favoured by most foresters. This is easily enough done at planting time, but you should be aware it will require entirely different and more complex management. foresters seem to be shy of this largely i suggest to ignorance on their part as to the correct management to apply to mixed stands.

There has been considerable research into this in France and the Association Futaie Irrégulière has published a book on the subject and runs courses for foresters and others. http://www.selectfor.com/research/research_associationfutaieirreguiliere.html
in a nutshell its all about favouring "stems with a future" and continuous cover, with mixed ages and mixed species.

Best of luck with it, and keep the spirits up.
Thank you very much for the pictures............ I am sure they will help others to decide what to do if they notice an infection, or are reported.

tim

Vivat Fraxinus

woollyman

JohnBoy wrote: »

Sorry folks, not been around in a while.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Where to start

Tim I hadnt realised Sycamore was maple, I know they're related but thought it was a different, and not well regarded wood. I probably have my auld lad to blame for that, he views it as a weed!

A couple of you have asked what grows well locally? Well number 1 would be ash sadly, two probably whitethorn and three would be sycamore.


Our site has been cleared of the ash now so it's time to actually do something about it. It's some sight at the moment, I walked 200m of it a few weeks back and got stuck three or four times.


I like the sound of cherry, what's it like to grow? wet enough site as you can see.


Has anyone any agroforestry experience? The five years premium wouldnt be the end of the world if we got most of the land back. I wonder could the department get their head around it though for an existing forestry plot.

I have heard of one reforestation site that has been replanted as an agroforestry system. If you are considering agroforestry as an option I suggest you contact Eugene Curran, DAFM Forest Service inspector, for his advice. He has been involved in the Agroforestry GPC from the outset.

SILVAMAN

woollyman wrote: »

I have heard of one reforestation site that has been replanted as an agroforestry system. If you are considering agroforestry as an option I suggest you contact Eugene Curran, DAFM Forest Service inspector, for his advice. He has been involved in the Agroforestry GPC from the outset.

A really approachable and helpful Inspector.

JohnBoy

And the man handling our infection! good to know he's so well regarded.


On the drainage, there's very little can be done. The field is the relatively flat valley between two hills. It has a stream running across the bottom, there's a drain across the top, one each end, and one in the middle. But the bed of the stream is only a foot below the field and I doubt it can be lowered significantly without lowering it over a very long distance due to the geography. it's also a proper stream as opposed to a drain so I'm guessing not something that can be interfered with.

it's always going to be wet, but the issue at the moment is more to do with the soil's structure being destroyed than anything else. The digger man wouldnt have had it too easy, but it doesnt look like he put too much effort into saving what topsoil there was either. it's clear where the burial pits are as it's all subsoil on top in those spots. If we're going agroforestry the priority will need to be fixing it as a field.

I could get dung handy enough, the issue right now is getting a contractor to spread it, modern kit will sink fifty yards from the gate. I see duals in my future


Thanks for the input lads, good for the thinking out loud

timfromtang

Hi all,
Gerry Douglas of Teagasc was kind enough to share this book with me, I thought i would further share it here, it is free to download.

Quote"
An important book-- free online summarises the research underway for the past 10 years in Europe. We can expect the same or similar statistics in the next few years in terms of trees infected and the continued increase in tree mortality with each passing year. the chapter from Germany is especially informative. The full book can be downloaded at :
http://www.slu.se/globalassets/ew/or...ropean-ash.pdf

"

I hope folks that this will help us in our understanding and in deciding how to progress from here.

Best regards
Tim
Fuisneóg Abú

JohnBoy

Well isnt this lovely.

F*cking christmas trees, and wanton destruction to plant them.


Bloody forestry company thought it was the only viable crop and that was the way we were going to go :eek:


They've pulled them up, but there's no way of fixing the mess they've made.

Blackcurrants

The ash was pulled and removed and they replanted with conifers? Is this field to be managed to grow xmas trees? If so it needs a serious clean up. How does the grant scheme work when you plant what was a hardwood plantation with a softwood species?

JohnBoy

I meant christmas trees as a derisory term, they planted them as timber.

if you change tree type the grant rate is adjusted accordingly, but it's not a problem.

blue5000

JohnBoy wrote: »

Well isnt this lovely.

F*cking christmas trees, and wanton destruction to plant them.


Bloody forestry company thought it was the only viable crop and that was the way we were going to go :eek:


They've pulled them up, but there's no way of fixing the mess they've made.

Hi Johnboy how did this work out for you after?

Hopefully you got something decent planted since. I've no commercial ash, but lots in hedges getting dieback this year for the first time. Can it be sold as firewood now seeing as it's so prevalent.