Potential education discrimination?

Hollister11

I was reading a job spec for a multinational and they say that they are an equal opposites employer.

My issue is that they only accept applications from individual who have achieved at least 400 points in the leaving cert.

Does this not count as discrimination. I know it's not one of the seven grounds from discrimination, but surely not accepting someone because of exams unrelated to the proposed job.

Mrs OBumble

It could be argued that it's a proxy for discrimination on the basis of nationally- because non Irish people don't have leaving certificate, and other countries versions don't necessarily have points.

But discrimination on the basis of overall intelligence, as demonstrated by general exam results, is just fine.

seamus

Discrimination isn't illegal. As you say, it's not one of the illegal grounds, therefore no issue.

In any case, there is nothing stopping anyone in Ireland from going back and attempting to achieve 400 points if they feel that strongly about getting that job.

Lux23

At what point do they forgo this requirement? I haven't been asked about my leaving cert in years and if I saw a job with this company and had the requisite skills/college education I would still apply.

mahoganygas

I've seen several employers ask for a minimum 2.1 degree.

It's not the norm, but it certainly does happen.

davo10

Hollister11 wrote: »

I was reading a job spec for a multinational and they say that they are an equal opposites employer.

My issue is that they only accept applications from individual who have achieved at least 400 points in the leaving cert.

Does this not count as discrimination. I know it's not one of the seven grounds from discrimination, but surely not accepting someone because of exams unrelated to the proposed job.

Are you asking if third level institutions discriminate by setting points requirements for entrance into courses?

Musicman2000

mahoganygas wrote: »

I've seen several employers ask for a minimum 2.1 degree.

It's not the norm, but it certainly does happen.

Ive seen the likes of Lidl & Aldi looking for 2.1 degrees for management positions , which is absolutely ridiculous , how this proves someone could be a good manager i don't know .

Walter2016

Musicman2000 wrote: »

Ive seen the likes of Lidl & Aldi looking for 2.1 degrees for management positions , which is absolutely ridiculous , how this proves someone could be a good manager i don't know .

Retail management is not easy especially in today's analytical world.

They do pay their managers extremely well too.


I'm in retail - I refuse to entertain any candidate who has not finished leaving cert or equivalent.

pillphil

Lux23 wrote: »

At what point do they forgo this requirement? I haven't been asked about my leaving cert in years and if I saw a job with this company and had the requisite skills/college education I would still apply.

I don't think it the norm. I know Accenture have it as a requirement for their grad program. It's not a requirement for an experienced hire though.

Hollister11

pillphil wrote: »

I don't think it the norm. I know Accenture have it as a requirement for their grad program. It's not a requirement for an experienced hire though.

Unfortunately that's the one.

Turtle_

But if there were some valid grounds for not achieving the 400 points required, you'll probably find they'll consider your application anyway. I personally know of a person who applied to a similar place and got onto the grad programme without the required points, because they could demonstrate that X (don't want to go into details) negatively affected their results. However, this person had a fairly good academic record thereafter..

It's absolutely fair to filter candidates by a completely impersonal metric like the leaving cert. They look for people who have a certain level of academic ability along with the application needed to get a good (but by no means brilliant) leaving cert and degree. If you fall short on that, then you just aren't what they want.

It's like complaining that a haulage company is discriminating because they won't consider your a to drive vans unless you have the required class of licence.

Employers have to be able to set standards that candidates must meet.

Stheno

I applied for a job recently which specified you had to have a masters.

No wrong in it and a way of filtering

endacl

I've no medical degree. I should still be allowed apply for a job as a doctor. If I don't get it, that'd be discrimination, right?

Or is the premise a daft premise...?

blindsider

Education is not one of thr 9 grounds for 'direct' discrimination.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/equality_in_the_workplace.html

however, there is legal precedent for 'indirect' discrimination.

Indirect Discrimination

Indirect discrimination occurs where a rule or provision which applies to everyone, puts a person covered under one of the nine grounds at a particular disadvantage. The provision may appear on the face of it not to be discriminatory but its effect is discrimination.

I remember that a Travellers Rights group brought a case v an employer who would only accept Leaving Cert or equivalent.

The Travellers Group won:

I The employer couldn't demonstrate how/why the LC was needed.

II The Group argued (successfully) that the stipulation was disproportionately unfair to travellers as the % of LC travellers was much lower that other groups.

endacl

blindsider wrote: »

The Group argued (successfully) that the stipulation was disproportionately unfair to travellers as the % of LC travellers was much lower that other groups.

It was also disproportionately unfair to Mexicans.

dudara

Companies use filters like this to help them do the first filtering of applicants. LC points (or international equivalent) is a first easy way to do so. 400 is a good starting standard to work from.

ZeroThreat

Hollister11 wrote: »

I was reading a job spec for a multinational and they say that they are an equal opposites employer.

My issue is that they only accept applications from individual who have achieved at least 400 points in the leaving cert.

Does this not count as discrimination. I know it's not one of the seven grounds from discrimination, but surely not accepting someone because of exams unrelated to the proposed job.

400 isn't that stringent a requirement. From what I hear you need to have at least 500 to apply to the big 4, they seem to place more emphasis on it above even 3rd level qualifications for some reason.

_Brian

Nope,
There are only nine grounds its illegal to discriminate on..

• Gender
• Marital status
• Family status
• Sexual orientation
• Religion
• Age
• Disability
• Race/colour/nationality/ethnic or national origins
• Membership of the travelling community.

ZeroThreat

_Brian wrote: »

Nope,
There are only nine grounds its illegal to discriminate on..

• Gender
• Marital status
• Family status
• Sexual orientation
• Religion
• Age
• Disability
• Race/colour/nationality/ethnic or national origins
• Membership of the travelling community.

Indeed, thickness is a valid ground for any employer to discriminate on.

StupidLikeAFox

_Brian wrote: »

Nope,
There are only nine grounds its illegal to discriminate on..

• Gender
• Marital status
• Family status
• Sexual orientation
• Religion
• Age
• Disability
• Race/colour/nationality/ethnic or national origins
• Membership of the travelling community.

For the most part, these are things beyond a persons control. You can't change your age, skin colour, ethnicity etc - however you did have control over how many points you got in the LC

Peregrinus

Setting a threshhold of at least 440 LC points is not unlawful discrimination, but as the OP points out the employer holds themselves out as an "equal opportunities" employer, which I think involves committing to a slightly higher standard of "equal opportunities" than "not actually unlawful".

As an equal opportunities employer, they shouldn't be demanding, or representing themselves as demanding, a particular Leaving Cert score unless that genuinely is an occupational requirement for the job. (They shouldn't, for instance, be doing this just to "thin out" the list of applicants to a more manageable number.)

As we're not told what the job is, obviously we're not in a position to say how likely it is that 400 pts in the Leaving Cert is a reasonable measure of the intelligence, skills and attainments needed to do the job. But, even if it is, at the very least they should indicate that they are looking for 400 LC points "or the equivalent in other school-leaving exams". It's not enough to argue that they will in practice consider applicants who were educated abroad or followed some other course; the wording of the ad discourages those applicants from applying in the first place, so they'll never get to consider them.

So, yeah, this doesn't look like good equal opportunities practice to me.

Peregrinus

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

For the most part, these are things beyond a persons control. You can't change your age, skin colour, ethnicity etc - however you did have control over how many points you got in the LC

Control doesn't enter into it. (You can control your marital status, for example, and people can and do change religion.) The issue is not whether individuals control these characteristics, but whether we as a society consider it acceptable for employers to discriminate by reference to these characteristics.

livedadream

to be fair last year (and the year before) the average students leaving cert results were 345.
The proportion of students scoring at least 450 points has risen from less than 19% to 21.8% since 2011, during which time numbers with at least 500 points or more have jumped from less than 9% of school leavers to 10.3%.

[font=PT Sans, sans-serif]looks like the company are just looking for people who are a little bit above average... same as asking for 2.1 degrees or degrees in a certain sector. im sure if you were applying with A levels or the like they could work out the equivalent. [/font]

ZeroThreat

livedadream wrote: »

to be fair last year (and the year before) the average students leaving cert results were 345.
The proportion of students scoring at least 450 points has risen from less than 19% to 21.8% since 2011, during which time numbers with at least 500 points or more have jumped from less than 9% of school leavers to 10.3%.

[font=PT Sans, sans-serif]looks like the company are just looking for people who are a little bit above average... same as asking for 2.1 degrees or degrees in a certain sector. im sure if you were applying with A levels or the like they could work out the equivalent. [/font]

There's a good reason why young people have the idea that the LC is the most important exam they'll ever do drilled into them from a young age. It appears to take precedence over even 3rd Lvl qualifications when applying to large organisations or multinational firms.


Just wondering though, is there a site where you can check out the stats of the % of students getting above a certain level of points by year, going back to the 90s?

livedadream

I'm on the app but googling it will work. But examinations.ie has stats like that

It is a filter to cut the number of applicants they have to review.

scheister

I have also found using educational grades as an interesting one. 400 points is not that hardest thing in the world. But having it as a hard and fast rule is wrong. after my leaving cert i was looking at the PLC route so points did not matter to me. I changed my mind a years later and due to my lack of points had to start with a cert and work up to a masters. Surely the fact I have the masters should be rated higher then my LC points. Especially since the degree i have is a 430 point entry level.

scheister

scheister wrote: »

I have also found using educational grades as an interesting one. 400 points is not that hardest thing in the world. But having it as a hard and fast rule is wrong. after my leaving cert i was looking at the PLC route so points did not matter to me. I changed my mind a years later and due to my lack of points had to start with a cert and work up to a masters. Surely the fact I have the masters should be rated higher then my LC points. Especially since the degree i have is a 430 point entry level.

Given the numbers that apply to some of these graduate programs it would take a lot of work to consider each application on it's own merit.
To cut down the numbers that are considered some filters are applied. Leaving cert points is a relatively simple but very transparent one.
As long as they don't discriminate on the grounds listed above there isn't much you can do - the computer will say no.

Edit: Later in your career your results will mean less, or if you can connect with someone directly, but starting out potential employers don't have much else to consider.

Mrs OBumble

Peregrinus wrote: »

Setting a threshhold of at least 440 LC points is not unlawful discrimination, but as the OP points out the employer holds themselves out as an "equal opportunities" employer, which I think involves committing to a slightly higher standard of "equal opportunities" than "not actually unlawful".

As an equal opportunities employer, they shouldn't be demanding, or representing themselves as demanding, a particular Leaving Cert score unless that genuinely is an occupational requirement for the job. (They shouldn't, for instance, be doing this just to "thin out" the list of applicants to a more manageable number.)

Is demanding at least X points in Leaving more "equal opportunities" than randomly sorting applications into three piles and then saying "I don't hire unlucky people" before dumping two of the piles into the shredder and shortlisting only from the 3rd pile?

Because that's the only realistic option when an employer is faced with hundreds of applications for some positions.

Tom Dunne

Hollister11 wrote: »

I was reading a job spec for a multinational and they say that they are an equal opposites employer.

My issue is that they only accept applications from individual who have achieved at least 400 points in the leaving cert.

Does this not count as discrimination. I know it's not one of the seven grounds from discrimination, but surely not accepting someone because of exams unrelated to the proposed job.

The first thing I would ask is what you know about the job? You say the exams are unrelated, but couldn't you say that about the whole leaving certificate? What relevance does it have to a builder? A rocket scientist? A politician?

Could it be that those in the know are aware that those less academically inclined may be less able to do the job and therefore will waste both the candidate's and the company's time? And that therefore by setting a numerical figure as the minimum required may increase their chances of getting somebody most likely to succeed at the job?

It's not as clear cut as you are making it out. And it most certainly is not discrimination.

Peregrinus

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Is demanding at least X points in Leaving more "equal opportunities" than randomly sorting applications into three piles and then saying "I don't hire unlucky people" before dumping two of the piles into the shredder and shortlisting only from the 3rd pile?

Neither of these things would be an equal opportunities approach to recruitment.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Because that's the only realistic option when an employer is faced with hundreds of applications for some positions.

If an employer feels that applying the principle of equal opportunities in recruitment is just too much trouble, they should stop pretending to be an equal opportunities employer. It's dishonest.

livedadream

to be clear, no employer in the world will ask someone with a 2.1 degree or higher, a HDip, a masters, a PHD or a professional qualification what results they got in their leaving cert.
the leaving cert is important yes, as it offers us the basis of what you can consume and learn in the 3 years you do your leaving cert..however it is overwritten the second you complete something higher...

using it as a ground for graduates or entry level roles is a way of making sure they have people who are slightly above average, yes you can argue until the cows come home that its discrimination against people with a learning disability who no matter how hard they work will never achieve 400 points, or travellers who in general dont do the leaving cert, or girls who get pregnant, or young lads who get thrown into a life they have no control of because of bad parenting but thats life, the same way as some people will never be doctors, or astronauts. You have to reach a certain standard to do certain jobs and saying this is the standard, this is a bar, is not discrimination. An ad saying must be a man with big hands and 400 points in the leaving cert (no women need apply) is discrimination, or must be under 20 to apply is discrimination or no members of the travelling community is discrimination, no dogs no blacks no Irish is discrimination, achieving a certain educational standard is not discrimination no matter how much you want it to be.

work harder ,upskill and you will get there.

ZeroThreat

livedadream wrote: »

to be clear, no employer in the world will ask someone with a 2.1 degree or higher, a HDip, a masters, a PHD or a professional qualification what results they got in their leaving cert.
the leaving cert is important yes, as it offers us the basis of what you can consume and learn in the 3 years you do your leaving cert..however it is overwritten the second you complete something higher...

using it as a ground for graduates or entry level roles is a way of making sure they have people who are slightly above average, yes you can argue until the cows come home that its discrimination against people with a learning disability who no matter how hard they work will never achieve 400 points, or travellers who in general dont do the leaving cert, or girls who get pregnant, or young lads who get thrown into a life they have no control of because of bad parenting but thats life, the same way as some people will never be doctors, or astronauts. You have to reach a certain standard to do certain jobs and saying this is the standard, this is a bar, is not discrimination. An ad saying must be a man with big hands and 400 points in the leaving cert (no women need apply) is discrimination, or must be under 20 to apply is discrimination or no members of the travelling community is discrimination, no dogs no blacks no Irish is discrimination, achieving a certain educational standard is not discrimination no matter how much you want it to be.

work harder ,upskill and you will get there.

that's not strictly true. Many over on the accounting forum have said that no matter the age or qualifications of the applicant, or however many years ago they finished school the big 4 require an original statement of LC results from their original school stamped.

I replied to the poster (who was looking down his nose at those who didnt qualify with the ACA body) that many would be put off by such an anal retentive organisation

Mrs OBumble

ZeroThreat wrote: »

that's not strictly true. Many over on the accounting forum have said that no matter the age or qualifications of the applicant, or however many years ago they finished school the big 4 require an original statement of LC results from their original school stamped.

Indeed, there are some organisations which ask for results from LC right through to the person's highest degree. And some which ask for verification of those results.

Some orgs are just looking to see that the person tells the truth.

Others want the type of personality that performed consistently well through the late teenage years and into tertiary education. Some even place more weight on LC results than subsequent quals (bizarre though it seems to others).

Turtle_

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Some even place more weight on LC results than subsequent quals (bizarre though it seems to others).

Except it isn't bizarre - the last time you get benchmarked against your peers in a totally anonymous way is the leaving cert. If a firm has 1000s of applications from people with amazing degrees, they want to take a look at how they compare to each other. Is a 1.1 in Philosophy the same as a 1.1 in Sociology? How do science degrees compare to accounting degrees? What about engineering V languages?

There are plenty of good reasons why firms want to know LC results, especially when hiring graduates. The biggest myth about the LC is that it's not really all that important.

ZeroThreat

Turtle_ wrote: »

Except it isn't bizarre - the last time you get benchmarked against your peers in a totally anonymous way is the leaving cert. If a firm has 1000s of applications from people with amazing degrees, they want to take a look at how they compare to each other. Is a 1.1 in Philosophy the same as a 1.1 in Sociology? How do science degrees compare to accounting degrees? What about engineering V languages?

There are plenty of good reasons why firms want to know LC results, especially when hiring graduates. The biggest myth about the LC is that it's not really all that important.

A lot of middle aged people with masters/postrgraduate qualifications should really go back and resit their leaving cert then. I bet relearning Irish would be a right b***h after about 20 years gone past without ever using it.


Joking aside though, I'd still think that how the applicants performed in a degree particular associated with the organisation's main activity (ie Law Degree for law firm, accounting degree for accountancy practices, Computer science/engineering degree for tech company) should count for more than their adeptness with the Irish language when they were 18.

Tom Dunne

Turtle_ wrote: »

Is a 1.1 in Philosophy the same as a 1.1 in Sociology? How do science degrees compare to accounting degrees? What about engineering V languages?

From a pedagogical perspective, yes, they are equivalent on the National Qualifications Framework. Employers should have confidence that the awarding third level institution has been vetted and certified as meeting robust international standards for educational quality.

Is a 1.1 Philosophy degree as useful as a 1.1 in (say) chemistry for a chemical engineer position? No, of course not. So broadly speaking they are equivalent. But it's more a question of relevance, not equivalence.

Turtle_ wrote: »

The biggest myth about the LC is that it's not really all that important.

It's important in so far is as it is a means to an end. It is a blunt instrument to ascertain the ability of a student to undertake a third-level course. And yes, there is strong correlation between success in the LC and success at third level. So I would say it is important in terms of entry to third level, but that's as far as it goes.

Turtle_

ZeroThreat wrote: »

A lot of middle aged people with masters/postrgraduate qualifications should really go back and resit their leaving cert then. I bet relearning Irish would be a right b***h after about 20 years gone past without ever using it.


Joking aside though, I'd still think that how the applicants performed in a degree particular associated with the organisation's main activity (ie Law Degree for law firm, accounting degree for accountancy practices, Computer science/engineering degree for tech company) should count for more than their adeptness with the Irish language when they were 18.

Ah I did specify that it's important especially when hiring grads. With experienced hires they should look to their experience.

Plus, it's very well established that not all degrees are equal. In some disciplines it's nearly impossible to get a 1.1 but in others it's highly attainable; within subjects some institutions are known for having different emphasis, or marking harder/easier.

As for performance in.a degree related to the work of the employer... Plenty of large firms actively recruit people from different disciplines!

mahamageehad

livedadream wrote: »

to be clear, no employer in the world will ask someone with a 2.1 degree or higher, a HDip, a masters, a PHD or a professional qualification what results they got in their leaving cert.
the leaving cert is important yes, as it offers us the basis of what you can consume and learn in the 3 years you do your leaving cert..however it is overwritten the second you complete something higher...

using it as a ground for graduates or entry level roles is a way of making sure they have people who are slightly above average, yes you can argue until the cows come home that its discrimination against people with a learning disability who no matter how hard they work will never achieve 400 points, or travellers who in general dont do the leaving cert, or girls who get pregnant, or young lads who get thrown into a life they have no control of because of bad parenting but thats life, the same way as some people will never be doctors, or astronauts. You have to reach a certain standard to do certain jobs and saying this is the standard, this is a bar, is not discrimination. An ad saying must be a man with big hands and 400 points in the leaving cert (no women need apply) is discrimination, or must be under 20 to apply is discrimination or no members of the travelling community is discrimination, no dogs no blacks no Irish is discrimination, achieving a certain educational standard is not discrimination no matter how much you want it to be.

work harder ,upskill and you will get there.

I was asked for my leaving cert points and grades when I was a graduate despite having a bachelors, and it seemed to be weighted incredibly highly. Particularly bizarre given the field (multimedia). 3 years later or so when I was offered my current job, I also had to again produce LC results although I think that was more of a tick the box thing in Germany rather than a company requirement.

ZeroThreat

mahamageehad wrote: »

I was asked for my leaving cert points and grades when I was a graduate despite having a bachelors, and it seemed to be weighted incredibly highly. Particularly bizarre given the field (multimedia). 3 years later or so when I was offered my current job, I also had to again produce LC results although I think that was more of a tick the box thing in Germany rather than a company requirement.

Just had a search there, seems you can pay €14.50 to get a copy if you sat the LC prior to 2006. lol That's a relief, I'd be embarrassed having to call into my old school to request results.