Wideband LNB .... Sky Q Hybrid/Smart LNB

Johnboy1951

From what I have read to date, the 'hybrid' LNB is actually a 'smart' LNB and all outputs can be used by legacy receivers or a mix of receivers can be attached.

When a Sky Q box is connected to an output, that triggers the LNB circuitry to change to wideband mode for that output.

So apparently it does not matter which output the Sky Q box is connected to, it will automatically go into 'wideband mode'.

Similarly connecting a legacy receiver to any/all outputs wil leave those outputs in 'legacy mode' and they can be used as such.

It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has tried using these hybrid/smart LNBs with all legacy tuners, and/or swapping cables to indicate that all outputs are "equal" and have equal capability.

What I have not as yet been able to determine is ......... can all outputs operate in wideband mode at the same time? Is it possible to connect three Sky Q boxes to the one LNB for instance?

Example of LNB
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sky-MK4-Hybrid-6-Way-LNB-Sky-Q-Sky-HD-Freesat/251541387279?_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D40392%26meid%3D2deae95648f9457198f2573a6b4bd823%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D201661990630

The Cush

No, it's not smart at all. The hybrid LNB is basically a standard quad and wideband LNB in a single unit. Four legacy outputs and two wideband outputs.

The SkyQ compatible dSCR multiswitch could be regarded as smart as the output can be either SCR or legacy.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

No, it's not smart at all. The hybrid LNB is basically a standard quad and wideband LNB in a single unit. Four legacy outputs and two wideband outputs.

The SkyQ compatible dSCR multiswitch could be regarded as smart as the output can be either SCR or legacy.

Reports I have read on line (yes I know not to believe everything ) indicate that all outputs can be either wideband or legacy ....... and that from different sources.

Are you aware of any tests that have been done by switching connections etc?
I don't have the necessary equipment to test.

The Cush

Can you post links to these sources?

How do these sources say this switching is done?

Once piece of information ℹI came across that is more believable is that the SkyQ receiver can connect to an SCR LNB as the switching is already available in the receiver.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

Can you post links to these sources?

How do these sources say this switching is done?

Once piece of information ℹI came across that is more believable is that the SkyQ receiver can connect to an SCR LNB as the switching is already available in the receiver.

I'm sorry, I did not keep references to where I read this. I read those while doing general research about various LNBs.

Maybe a Sky Q installer could state definitely that Sky Q will not operate correctly unless two specific LNB outputs are used, and that using any of the others prevents Sky Q from operating correctly.
That would be definitive I guess ...... and I would be more inclined to believe a known boards poster that something I read on line from unknown persons.

The Cush

Did a little research on this this evening, it does appear that the hybrid could be smart indeed.

This from a regular DS forum poster on a Humax forum

Just confirmed this info. For Sky Q domestic users with legacy kit a new hybrid lnb with 6 outputs can be fitted. This lnb is smart enough to recognise what it's connected to. Either.

1 A Sky Q Vertical polarisation wideband input
2 A Sky Q Horizontal polarisation wideband input
3 A legacy band and polarisation switching tuner.

A poster with the hybrid lnb was kind enough to connect a Sky Q input cable to a TV with a satellite tuner and confirmed the 4 possible band/polarisation options all worked.

Pretty impressive actually

https://myhumax.org/forum/topic/sky-q-preview-heck/page/3#post-48125

and a Sky Community forum discussion - http://helpforum.sky.com/t5/Sky-Q/Hybrid-LNB-interesting-account/td-p/2501103

The question, the hybrid LNB outputs appears to be legacy by default, if so how is the switching to wideband mode achieved? I know the SkyQ setup menu - LNB Type has an SCR option, is there a Wideband or other option? What is the process to switch to wideband mode?

Johnboy1951

Thanks for finding corroborating information.
It means that the LNB is very versatile, and could be the LNB of choice for future proofing a legacy set up.

I have not as yet found anything about the number of outputs that can concurrently be used in wideband mode.

Could this LNB feed three Sky Q boxes?

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Could this LNB feed three Sky Q boxes?

Possibly, but Sky will only supply one per account.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

Possibly, but Sky will only supply one per account.

I was thinking of the LNB capabilities, and not considering any limitation Sky might place on their service offerings

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I was thinking of the LNB capabilities, and not considering any limitation Sky might place on their service offerings

We won't know for sure until someone can test it with 2 or 3 receivers, neighbours/friends etc.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

We won't know for sure until someone can test it with 2 or 3 receivers, neighbours/friends etc.

It is rather disconcerting that there appears to be no technical information available on its capabilities .... from any source I could find.

Johnboy1951

@ The Cush ...... I wondered if you had come across any further info on this LNB which might detail its capabilities?

I have not read anything new at all.

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

@ The Cush ...... I wondered if you had come across any further info on this LNB which might detail its capabilities?

I have not read anything new at all.

No, haven't seen anything since.

winston_1

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Thanks for finding corroborating information.  ;)
It means that the LNB is very versatile, and could be the LNB of choice for future proofing a legacy set up.

I have not as yet found anything about the number of outputs that can concurrently be used in wideband mode.

Could this LNB feed three Sky Q boxes?

As far as I know only (any) two outputs can be used in wideband mode. But it does not matter as there are no band or polarity switching voltages with Sky Q if you wanted multiple boxes you could connect to the same pair of outputs with a splitter.

Johnboy1951

winston_1 wrote: »

As far as I know only (any) two outputs can be used in wideband mode. But it does not matter as there are no band or polarity switching voltages with Sky Q if you wanted multiple boxes you could connect to the same pair of outputs with a splitter.

If any two can be used in wideband mode, while the other four are used in legacy mode, what is the limiting factor that determines that two more of the 'legacy' connections can not be used in wideband mode .... or indeed all six?

I thought all six could be wideband simultaneously, depending on the signal sent to them from the STB.

Gatoh

The Cush wrote: »

We won't know for sure until someone can test it with 2 or 3 receivers, neighbours/friends etc.

Yeah I can confirm Hybrid LNB works with x3 Sky Q main boxes simultaneously no problems
We sharing one dish in between 3 apartments and Sky installer used only one dish & hybrid

Messi Lingard

Gatoh wrote: »

Yeah I can confirm Hybrid LNB works with x3 Sky Q main boxes simultaneously no problems
We sharing one dish in between 3 apartments and Sky installer used only one dish & hybrid

Hi,
Can anyone give me a link to this lnb?
I've got sky q but and the wires ready to go in another room.. but I want to be able to move the sky q box in and out of my man cave when i have people over.
Thanks

Johnboy1951

Messi Lingard wrote: »

Hi,
Can anyone give me a link to this lnb?
I've got sky q but and the wires ready to go in another room.. but I want to be able to move the sky q box in and out of my man cave when i have people over.
Thanks

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sky-Way-Hybrid-LNB-HD/dp/7555564149/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1529228307&sr=8-1&keywords=Sky+Hybrid+LNB

Tigerandahalf

So does a sky q box still need 2 feeds from the lnb to watch/record?
Wasn't that the same with Sky plus?
Or can you just record more now?

The Cush

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

So does a sky q box still need 2 feeds from the lnb to watch/record?
Wasn't that the same with Sky plus?
Or can you just record more now?

SkyQ requires 2 feeds to carry the 2 polarisations separately, full band down each cable. That way all channels and polarisations are available at the receiver for multiple tuners. SkyQ has 8/12 tuners depending on the box, 4/6 for recording.

The Cush

Some new SkyQ compatible LNBs on the market

The first is a non-smart Hybrid LNB - visiblewave VHK6 – Hybrid LNB 6-output (2 x Wideband, 4 x Quad)
Fixed 2 x Wideband, 4 x Quad outputs, looks more compact than the Sky supplied hybrid version.




The second is a SkyQ compatible dSCR LNB - Global Invacom Universal dCSS LNB (GLODCSSLNB)
Compatible with all SCR standards - EN50494 (SCR legacy) and EN50607 (dCSS) and dSCR/Sky Q

Johnboy1951

That second LNB pictured is rather interesting.
In comparison to my present Inverto Unicable LNB, this one is rather slim, and should facilitate two LNBs side-by-side to receive closely spaced satellites from a single dish.
The width of the Inverto in this regard is problematic.

In addition this attracted my attention:-

Enables a single coaxial cable connection to Sky Q & other multimedia set top boxes whilst allowing terrestrial to be carried simultaneously.

... but as I do not see any connection on the LNB itself, presumably this must be achieved with an external combiner of some sort.

Spec sheet:
https://www.hypex.co.uk/files/attachments/18939/dCSS%20LNB%20Spec.pdf

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

... but as I do not see any connection on the LNB itself, presumably this must be achieved with an external combiner of some sort.

I presume they're referring to the use of a satellite/terrestrial combiner after the LNB where the signals won't conflict like a wideband LNB.

Apogee

The Cush wrote: »

The second is a SkyQ compatible dSCR LNB - Global Invacom Universal dCSS LNB (GLODCSSLNB)
Compatible with all SCR standards - EN50494 (SCR legacy) and EN50607 (dCSS) and dSCR/Sky Q

According to specs, this supports:

- 32 User Bands in Static & Hybrid mode
- 24 User Bands in Dynamic mode

How many Sky Q boxes can be run off this LNB? I've never seen this info with respect to these dSCR LNBs. Or is the assumption that they are only to be used with one Sky Q box?

I presume that you couldn't run a Sky Q box AND a standard Unicable-enabled receiver simultaneously, seeing how the bands are different?

Irreverent

I just got a new Gigablue UHD UE 4K set top box. At the moment I just have two coax fed into the sat tuners and one terrestrial giving me 4 tuner capability. There are two DVB-S2 FCB tuners on the box. Is this the LNB that I will need to connect to these tuners with one cable from the dish so all eight tuners are available?

Johnboy1951

Apogee wrote: »

According to specs, this supports:

- 32 User Bands in Static & Hybrid mode
- 24 User Bands in Dynamic mode

How many Sky Q boxes can be run off this LNB? I've never seen this info with respect to these dSCR LNBs. Or is the assumption that they are only to be used with one Sky Q box?

I presume that you couldn't run a Sky Q box AND a standard Unicable-enabled receiver simultaneously, seeing how the bands are different?

You can run multiple Unicable-enabled receivers simultaneously from the one LNB and so *should* be able to run multiple Sky Q boxes also ....... IF Sky complied with the specifications and allows the user access to the necessary settings.
A Sky Q box has 12 tuners according to specs I read, so 2 of them could use 24 tuner outputs .... IF the user can get at the settings.

I would not be surprised if the user had no access, but maybe someone who has such a set up will post.

raceroad

The Cush wrote: »

Some new SkyQ compatible LNBs on the market

The first is a non-smart Hybrid LNB -
Fixed 2 x Wideband, 4 x Quad outputs, looks more compact than the Sky supplied hybrid version.

Does this LNB provide two different (1x vertical / 1x horizontal) WB-signals already with DC-supply, or are control signals of a Q-box necessary to let the outputs switch to the different directions of polarisation? In the attached PDF band switching is only described for the legacy ports, but that’s not clear enough.

Background: I live in Germany (… sorry for my poor English), so I don’t use a Q-box. Nevertheless I bought a sky 6-way hybrid LNB about a year ago. Maybe due to the characteristic positions of the six outputs, I thought that this LNB has two WB-outputs (fixed) and four legacys. This would have been perfect to serve the inputs of a WB-compatible external CSS-router and up to four tuners of elder receivers, which need legacy signals. But I had to realize, that all six outputs of this LNB can be used either for legacy od WB. So far I couldn’t find any information about the commands used to let the ports switch to the two WB-modes.

STB.

raceroad wrote: »

Does this LNB provide two different (1x vertical / 1x horizontal) WB-signals already with DC-supply, or are control signals of a Q-box necessary to let the outputs switch to the different directions of polarisation? In the attached PDF band switching is only described for the legacy ports, but that’s not clear enough.

Background: I live in Germany (… sorry for my poor English), so I don’t use a Q-box. Nevertheless I bought a sky 6-way hybrid LNB about a year ago. Maybe due to the characteristic positions of the six outputs, I thought that this LNB has two WB-outputs (fixed) and four legacys. This would have been perfect to serve the inputs of a WB-compatible external CSS-router and up to four tuners of elder receivers, which need legacy signals. But I had to realize, that all six outputs of this LNB can be used either for legacy od WB. So far I couldn’t find any information about the commands used to let the ports switch to the two WB-modes.

That 6 way hybrid is only for Sky Q ie one Sky Q box (2 cables out) and 4 legacy outputs.


They didn't follow the spec for generic wideband. Its their own interpretation so is useless outside a Sky Q box I gather.

raceroad

Thanks for your answer. But as I wrote, meanwhile I know that all six outputs of sky’s 6-way hybrid LNB are switchable. So this LNB is not suitable for my purpose.

My question was not about sky’s 6-way hybrid LNB, but about the VHK6 of visiblewave. Just an hour ago I sent a similar question to visiblewave, and they replied, that only supply voltage is needed.

The Cush

raceroad wrote: »

but about the VHK6 of visiblewave. Just an hour ago I sent a similar question to visiblewave, and they replied, that only supply voltage is needed.

Thanks for the confirmation, that was my understanding, 2 fixed wideband outputs similar to Sky's own supplied standard 2 output wideband LNB.

Regarding the SkyQ smart hybrid LNB, I understand that the SkyQ receiver sends a proprietary switching signal to the required outputs which switches them over from legacy to wideband, each output is legacy by default.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

Thanks for the confirmation, that was my understanding, 2 fixed wideband outputs similar to Sky's own supplied standard 2 output wideband LNB.

Regarding the SkyQ smart hybrid LNB, I understand that the SkyQ receiver sends a proprietary switching signal to the required outputs which switches them over from legacy to wideband, each output is legacy by default.

The big question is what is that signal ...... could it possibly be captured and duplicated?

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The big question is what is that signal

Maybe DiSEqC ?

Johnboy1951

It would certainly be interesting to know, as it would open up a lot of options to owners of such LNBs.

raceroad

The Cush wrote: »

Regarding the SkyQ smart hybrid LNB, I understand that the SkyQ receiver sends a proprietary switching signal to the required outputs which switches them over from legacy to wideband, [...]

I agree and cannot imagine another opportunity to run a Q-box on a LNB with exclusively switchable outputs (legacy <> Wideband) than requesting the signals with different commands for WB-vertical and WB-horizontal. For this reason, I think that the Q-box must be capable to generate such commands. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find any information about the commands used.

But there seems to be another way of WB-driven operation of a Q-box: If you take a closer look on sky’s pure WB-LNB (only two ports), you can see that the outputs are labeled with 'V' respectively 'H'. But there’s no corresponding labelling at the dish inputs of a Q. Maybe the receiver is able to auto-detect which signal belongs to which direction of polarisation.

About my motivation: Especially if you like to receive more than one satellite position, you have to pay significantly less for a CSS-router if you use WB-LNBs. And the installation becomes easier (less cable). But with WB it’s more complex to combine CSS and legacy. I know, that most dCSS-routers are able to generate legacy signals, but I don’t like dCSS-technique very much. For this, a combination of Quad- und WB-LNB would be ideal. On German market you can find a variety of CSS-equipment, but no hybrid-LNB.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The big question is what is that signal ...... could it possibly be captured and duplicated?

So the Q can also be used in CSS-installations and the controlling of a CSS-unit is based on DiSEqC, it’s obvious that the control of a hybrid LNB could also be DiSEqC-based. But I was not surprised, that DiSEqC-1.0-commands had no effect on the sky hybrid. S.o. with a storage scope had to monitor the supply voltage.

The Cush

raceroad wrote: »

So the Q can also be used in CSS-installations and the controlling of a CSS-unit is based on DiSEqC, it’s obvious that the control of a hybrid LNB could also be DiSEqC-based. But I was not surprised, that DiSEqC-1.0-commands had no effect on the sky hybrid. S.o. with a storage scope had to monitor the supply voltage.

As I said above they may be using a proprietary switching standard like they do with their dSCR multswitches where they use their own version of unicable.

raceroad

But as I was told from a developer of CSS-hardware, sky’s proprietary switching standard in some kind is very similar to "Unicable": Both use the same DiSEqC-burst to symbolise '0' and '1'.

PauloMN

I am getting Sky Q installed and being out of the scene for a while, I know nothing of this hybrid/wideband system. I had Sky+ in the past, have a dish with a quad LNB (prob 6 or 7 years old by now) and have a twin coax feed into sitting room (which fed the old Sky+ box) and another of the LNB outputs fed to a separate room (into a Freesat box).

My question is will the Sky installers only put in a new single output LNB for Sky Q, leaving me without the feed to the other room which I use for Freesat? Or do they install "hybrid" multi-output LNBs that will cater for Sky Q and also older feeds to Freesat boxes? Would rather avoid having to get another LNB to use my Freesat box again.

Also does Sky Q require new cable, or will the twin coax feed from Sky+ work with it?

Johnboy1951

PauloMN wrote: »

I am getting Sky Q installed and being out of the scene for a while, I know nothing of this hybrid/wideband system. I had Sky+ in the past, have a dish with a quad LNB (prob 6 or 7 years old by now) and have a twin coax feed into sitting room (which fed the old Sky+ box) and another of the LNB outputs fed to a separate room (into a Freesat box).

My question is will the Sky installers only put in a new single output LNB for Sky Q, leaving me without the feed to the other room which I use for Freesat? Or do they install "hybrid" multi-output LNBs that will cater for Sky Q and also older feeds to Freesat boxes? Would rather avoid having to get another LNB to use my Freesat box again.

Also does Sky Q require new cable, or will the twin coax feed from Sky+ work with it?

This is explained in other threads ---- you should insist on getting a Hybrid LNB with 6 outputs from the installer.
You need to specify that to the installer, and be firm about it.
If you don't you will get two output to the SkyQ and nothing else.

raceroad

Meanwhile the VHK6 has arrived, and I had the opportunity to test it. In agreement with the statement of visiblewave, the WB outputs are labelled V / H and need supply only.

raceroad

Using a new post. Otherwise I’m not able to add images. First on of the LNB-ports:

 


Receiving 28.2°, 12129 MHz, v / top down signal from the normally used Quattro (Octagon Optima), Legacy-port of the VHK6 and finally from WB-V. Due to the lower WB-LOF, the signal appears at a higher IF (German: "SAT-ZF"):

 

Level on the VHK6-legay is about 10 dB higher the on the Octagon!


Power consumption is significantly higher than listed in the specs. For the Quad-part of the LNB I’ve measured around 152 mA @14V on a legacy port:

 

It’s a bit complex, cause if the supply voltage of any port is at least ca. 1 V higher than the other voltages, this port has to carry the whole load of the LNB. With one legacy-port supplied, there is signal on the WB-outputs without suppling them. And as I added 12 V to one or two additional legacy-pots (just for test purpose), the current on the fist legacy (14 V) rose up to 163 / 174 mA (…. < 1 mA on the additional ports). WB starts with 130 mA @14V (huge gap to the specs / It seems they have copied the data from the WB-only VW2L.) and rises up to 153 / 164 mA with 12 V at one / two additional legacy ports.

The Cush

Haven't seen this mentioned on the forum to date, the Sky 6 output smart hybrid LNB it appears has been discontinued since last autumn according to this thread on DS - https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/comment/94642825#Comment_94642825

Only fixed hybrid LNBs available now. The 6 output version, EL028 - 2x4, is special order only according to the forums.

This Smart LNB was expensive however, and engineers were using it when not strictly necessary. In order to reduce costs, they phased out this Smart LNB and moved back to Hybrid LNBs, but in two models:

EL027 - 2x2 - 2 for wideband, 2 for standard/legacy
EL028 - 2x4 - 2 for wideband, 4 for standard/legacy

The EL028 sounds similar to the original Hybrid LNB. The main difference is the design and shape of the LNB. Instead of an L-shaped LNB, the EL027/28 is straight with a different weather shield system - you have to push the entire body shell up in order to reveal the ports.

If the rumours are correct that the new Arris Freesat box includes wideband tuners, the discontinuation of the 6 output smart hybrid that can feed up to 3 wideband compatible receivers will be setback.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

....

If the rumours are correct that the new Arris Freesat box includes wideband tuners, the discontinuation of the 6 output smart hybrid that can feed up to 3 wideband compatible receivers will be setback.

Are there alternative suppliers of the 'smart' type LNB?
(I have not kept up with the availability situation)

I would guess that Freesat see themselves as an alternative to Sky rather than the 'real world' situation where both can be in use in a household.

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Are there alternative suppliers of the 'smart' type LNB?

Haven't come across any.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I would guess that Freesat see themselves as an alternative to Sky rather than the 'real world' situation where both can be in use in a household.

The availability of smart hybrid LNBs may have been factor in their decision I assume with the capability of running up to 3 multi-tuner receivers from a single LNB in multi-receiver household. If there's a market for them some company will fill it just like they did for original Sky Marconi, enhanced and universal LNBs.