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Garnerville Too Militaristic?

  • #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,640 Homer01


    This was mentioned elsewhere that a recent audit thought the first four weeks were too militaristic.

    Thoughts?


«1

Comments



  • If its to do with parading, boot bulling, drill etc then I think there's nothing wrong with that even though its mostly for show. Its all part of the discipline routine within the Police which is fair.
    Will be interesting to see the report.




  • I do think there is a need to instill discipline and build camaraderie within a squad. Especially as most recruits will be totally new to such an environment. Either very young or very used to civvy life.

    Would be interested to know what they thought was too militaristic and also how it compares to other UK forces.




  • Said it on another thread but sincerely hope that its not talking about drill/show parades etc. Nothing wrong with it. It simply sets the standard and you will do it until its right! Anyone who winges/moans is simply too soft, Not to mention it all leads up to your passing out when you will be proud to wear your mint number one uniform and bulled boots! the months of marching and drill mean you will look good during passing out.




  • Can confirm show parade gone and drilling to be relaxed quite a bit.




  • ***Stupid question alert***

    What's a show parade?


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  • I believe the learning has been relaxed also




  • I'd imagine this is the first big shake up of training for a while - Good or Bad we'll hopefully find out soon enough!




  • Where are we hearing about this?




  • Homer01 wrote: »
    ***Stupid question alert***

    What's a show parade?

    Show parade is like an informal punishment for doing something wrong. In the first couple of the weeks it would have been impossible not to get a show parade as they pick on anything they can find and punish the whole class - character building.

    Basically you get your number ones on and make sure your uniform is spic and span and go out into the parade square first thing early morning before class or last thing at night after class.




  • Thanks dolla :)

    That's kinda what I had pictured but good to get it confirmed.


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  • Garnerville: Report criticises PSNI college's 'military-style boot camp' regime -
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37892112

    The culture within Garnerville is described as "more associated with a pseudo-militaristic training environment".
    "Student officers and trainers have detailed how the first day of the residential process can involve students performing press-ups in uniform and running distances in business attire," the report adds.
    It notes that military style drill training is incorporated throughout the curriculum, and that student officers routinely march when moving around the college.
    The review team says students are forced to take part in military style "show parades" as a form of punishment, sometimes in response to a mistake or poor performance by an individual.
    They reveal that examples of when such punishments were applied for what it calls "infractions against unreasonably high standards" included water drips in sinks and dust on floors.

    Formal drill practice will continue, but the amount of such training will be reduced, and the focus will be on preparing for ceremonial occasions like the passing out parade to mark the graduation of new officers.
    The review recommends a change to the way students are tested and assessed.
    It says there is a "fear of failure", with students led to believe that a single mistake or individual failure could result in the loss of their job.




  • On Nolan show now.




  • Did anyone catch what was said?




  • Nothing too revealing.
    Although it transpired that the Policing Board has been boycotting the passing out parades. This is due to the CC's response to the cheating.
    They wanted all training and recruitment suspended until review completed but he disagreed.

    I do tend to agree with most of the recommendations I've heard. The PSNI are not an army so why have army style training and discipline. Keeping recruits back from their families over insignificant specks of dust.
    I also see the need to have discipline within the ranks but there has to be balance.




  • Homer01 wrote: »
    Garnerville: Report criticises PSNI college's 'military-style boot camp' regime -
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37892112
    Thanks for sharing Homer01, it's an interesting read! One of the problems for all of us is when we arrive on station we will get the "aye, you lot had it easy, wasn't like that when I went through the Factory, we had to get up before we went to bed and had to march all over the place" wind ups :)
    Homer01 wrote: »
    Garnerville: Report criticises PSNI college's 'military-style boot camp' regime -
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37892112

    It says there is a "fear of failure", with students led to believe that a single mistake or individual failure could result in the loss of their job.
    So, a bit like real life then! :O




  • Homer01 wrote: »
    Nothing too revealing.
    Although it transpired that the Policing Board has been boycotting the passing out parades. This is due to the CC's response to the cheating.
    They wanted all training and recruitment suspended until review completed but he disagreed.
    Childish!
    Homer01 wrote: »
    ...so why have army style training and discipline.
    Because it works?

    Cleaning the rooms - observation / attention to the smallest detail - required in paperwork and evidence preparation / collection.

    Uniform Show Parades - again attention to detail and also a pride in the uniform and ensuring that you look the part. The first level of use of force is "Officer Presence" - if you tip up to an incident looking like a well turned out police officer you will engender more respect than if you turn up looking like a civvy playing dress up who doesn't know one end of an iron from the other. Don't necessarily agree with them as a "punishment" though, but as someone else said, they are part of building camaraderie and instilling discipline - makes everybody work together to make sure the squad, errrrr I mean class :), doesn't get one!




  • C3POPO wrote: »
    Childish!


    Because it works?

    Cleaning the rooms - observation / attention to the smallest detail - required in paperwork and evidence preparation / collection.

    Uniform Show Parades - again attention to detail and also a pride in the uniform and ensuring that you look the part. The first level of use of force is "Officer Presence" - if you tip up to an incident looking like a well turned out police officer you will engender more respect than if you turn up looking like a civvy playing dress up who doesn't know one end of an iron from the other. Don't necessarily agree with them as a "punishment" though, but as someone else said, they are part of building camaraderie and instilling discipline - makes everybody work together to make sure the squad, errrrr I mean class :), doesn't get one!

    Does it work but? Is the military style training that makes good officers?
    The only reason it is being raised is because recent recruits have been asked their opinion. Nobody would ever complain whilst in there.

    I still think there is huge difference between the role of a PC and that of a soldier. As such the training given should reflect that. So much more important to make that distinction in Northern Ireland.

    Camaraderie and discipline; absolutely yes. But 'drop and give me twenty' isn't the best motivator.

    I do agree that new recruits will be almost thought less of with these new changes. No marching, no push/pull, no show parades, etc.
    That's just the nature and evolution of any organisation I suppose.




  • It will be nice to see an official statement released from the PSNI and/or policing board about the report.
    Its not building public confidence if no one knows whats going on. This is the first real disclosure since last month.




  • I'd rather go through all of what they've taken out than deal with the crap and sleggings that we'll get afterwards to be honest... I'd rather not be thought less of.




  • Wow...just wow, I'm genuinely gutted at this news. Who on earth gave the feedback that led to this as it most certainly wasn't any of those I was in training with...I assume it was the same crowd that have already been molly coddled through cheating exams and doing half a PCA.

    I can honestly say I absolutely loved the things discussed here, the marching, the show parades and the general boot camp feel of the first few weeks and indeed onwards. They are amongst the foremost elements of Garnerville that I look back at with the most fondness and pride, the things that make the whole experience unique and special. The reasons I formed such a tight knit bond with those in my squad and indeed those in my section now as we have all been through similar experiences. Don't get me wrong standing on a parade square in the freezing cold at 8am wasn't always enjoyable but hey, if the process isn't challenging what's the point?

    I believe it undoubtedly instills discipline not to mention a team ethos and work ethic. And a key part of this which has not been discussed is the demonstrative resolve to succeed that that was required. This change opens the door to candidates of which there are already many who just throw an application into the police to see how it goes, without giving the job itself much thought. Thankfully should any of these have gotten as far as GV under the current process they were easily weeded out as they weren't going to put themselves through 5 plus months of show parades for a job they weren't too keen on!

    With regard to the fear of failure culture, I kind of get what they're talking about. The pressure and the stress of the situation at times can feel immense. However, why shouldn't it? It is a difficult job and the pressure of a few exams and role plays may be nothing compared to the pressure of being a first responder to say a bad injury RTC, or a serious sexual assault. At the end of the day yes the trainers/drill staff might put students under pressure at times,but they need to know you can handle it, and every element of training is eminently passable with a bit of work.

    Sorry that I'm ranting a bit and I'll just leave it there, I just feel quite passionate about this and I'm disappointed that they appear to be streamlining the requisite training for an operational police officer with that of a call centre employee. Surely a bit of recognition that this isn't like any other job wouldn't go amiss...


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  • Great post didierdrogba - very eloquently put!

    I bet there has been consideration of dropping the 4 week residential element of GV as part of this "review". It costs money and why would they need it if they aren't going to do the room inspections, show parades and marching to and from class?? Why not just give everybody a locker and changing room facilities to get changed into uniform and they won't have to give out a food allowance for the residential?




  • I agree with Drogba. Im actually annoyed about these changes. Yes GV can be militaristic but its what is needed to impose discipline and high standards. Trust me, after a week of show parades you make sure that uniform is spick and span. The marching to and from class is purely so that squads learn and practice how to march as you don't get many drill lessons due to time constraints. There is no "drop and give me 20" type 'punishments' and to term a show parade as "punishment" is quite laughable. A show parade is given due to poor standards, be it room cleanliness, poor performance in class or bad uniform. Its hardly a punishment to iron the No.1's again and stand in a line to be inspected.
    The first four weeks are primarily to see if those who have made it that far have the drive and determination to continue with the process. A lot of people quit because they don't like it - and hey, they weren't right for the job.
    The police are not the army. But it is a uniformed public service. It requires discipline, an eye for details and high standards. How would you like it if a peeler turned up at your door to investigate a crime or break bad news to you and their uniform was scruffy, un-ironed and covered in dust and dirt? You'd think he doesn't give a toss. Thats what GV was teaching and now its sounds like a joke.
    Don't get me started on calling them "classes" instead of "squads" :angry:




  • Even the Boys Brigade have squads and drill. Squads to classes is such a silly recommendation. Must have been really stuck for recommendations.




  • Does the fact it was compiled by Chief Superintendent Alan Gibson from Police Scotland and supported by ACC Alan Todd give it any credibility?

    I personally would enjoy the order, attention to detail and high standards from that environment. I also believe in change when change is needed. It would appear that those in charge feel change is needed in this case.

    Ultimately if it helps those student officers prepare better for the real world then it works if it doesn't then change it.

    Do the fire service or ambulance service have similar training styles and disciplines?

    Thanks to those who have been through the factory and giving their input. The likes of myself are purely armchair referees at this point so always good to get those valuable insights.




  • Having been a military instructor and graduate of Garnerville I can assure you that the training is military light at best. The drill is useful to prep for pass out and nothing else, but it can take weeks to get a class to march together so scrap graduation parades if you scrap drill. The issue with show parades is the staff have often no idea why they are giving them out so it becomes a petty catch all punishment. Rather than adding value it can detract from the ability to learn as in the first 4 weeks you can be on show until 2300 hrs at the whim of a duty officer with nothing better to do. Often the only reason is we all had to do it. This practice continues for those who live outside the Belfast area and live in for 22 weeks albeit at a reduced level whilst those from Belfast leave by 1800 most days. The fear of failing on a minor point is real and caused the whole issue. Rather than back squading exam failures you get sacked. There is little to learn from that in the wash up. In short, is it the military? No where near. Is it necessary? Yes but is badly delivered by those who know no better. Is it fun? Yes
    Will the PSNI have better officers now? Probably not as there are people who only respond to punishment as a learning tool. If you made the induction residential with lessons on kit and parades, you would lose people, but people would arrive knowing how to basically administer themselves. I was often stunned by how unable some people are at basically looking after their own life support.




  • Having been a military instructor and graduate of Garnerville I can assure you that the training is military light at best. The drill is useful to prep for pass out and nothing else, but it can take weeks to get a class to march together so scrap graduation parades if you scrap drill. The issue with show parades is the staff have often no idea why they are giving them out so it becomes a petty catch all punishment. Rather than adding value it can detract from the ability to learn as in the first 4 weeks you can be on show until 2300 hrs at the whim of a duty officer with nothing better to do. Often the only reason is we all had to do it. This practice continues for those who live outside the Belfast area and live in for 22 weeks albeit at a reduced level whilst those from Belfast leave by 1800 most days. The fear of failing on a minor point is real and caused the whole issue. Rather than back squading exam failures you get sacked. There is little to learn from that in the wash up. In short, is it the military? No where near. Is it necessary? Yes but is badly delivered by those who know no better. Is it fun? Yes
    Will the PSNI have better officers now? Probably not as there are people who only respond to punishment as a learning tool. If you made the induction residential with lessons on kit and parades, you would lose people, but people would arrive knowing how to basically administer themselves. I was often stunned by how unable some people are at basically looking after their own life support.




  • C3POPO wrote: »
    I bet there has been consideration of dropping the 4 week residential element of GV as part of this "review". It costs money and why would they need it if they aren't going to do the room inspections, show parades and marching to and from class?? Why not just give everybody a locker and changing room facilities to get changed into uniform and they won't have to give out a food allowance for the residential?
    "3 - The compulsory residential requirement of the course should be removed. Free accommodation will continue to be available to ensure that student officers can best decide how to balance their personal and work commitments during the demanding training period.
    Culture - Immediate"

    Looks like my crystal ball was working!! :O:)




  • C3POPO wrote: »
    "3 - The compulsory residential requirement of the course should be removed. Free accommodation will continue to be available to ensure that student officers can best decide how to balance their personal and work commitments during the demanding training period.
    Culture - Immediate"

    Looks like my crystal ball was working!! :O:)

    Definitely a bad idea. I think the benefits outweigh the cons.

    If you foresee six numbers between 1 and 59 before Saturday just drop me a PM ;)




  • Homer01 wrote: »
    Do the fire service or ambulance service have similar training styles and disciplines?

    The Fire Service employs exactly the same style of recruit training. The instructors find 'something wrong' and call a parade(s), part and parcel of toughening you up and instilling discipline.


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