Planning mess - is Engineer responsible?

Hannaho

This is just one of the issues related to my sister's renovation. Someone reported my sister to planning just as house was finished. Sister has owned house since 2007. Previous owner had put a two storey extension on end terraced house, making it terraced, and extended the kitchen. These extensions were done before 1989 - and her solicitor says they were exempt from planning as they are beyond the seven year time limit, and belong to a time when people could extend in whatever way they wanted. Engineer in charge of the project told my sister that the rere extension - which had to be knocked as they found it had no foundation - was the only area of the house which was included in the 50 metres squared that one could extend to the house. She replaced the existing extension and added a small bit - 5 sq. metres on to the rere extension. This rere extension, tougher with a new porch, came to 50q metres. However, when the person from the planning office came out, they said the engineer should have known that the two storey extension at the side of the house was part of the 50q metres, along with the existing rere extension, before she slightly extended it. My engineer stated he didn't know this, and that my sister had told him she didn't need planning. My sister never said she didn't need planning what she said was that her solicitor, when she had bought the house, had told her that the side and were extensions were exempt from palling as they were built so long ago, before 1989. Now my sister is waiting for the planning office to return with a request to apply for retention of all these extensions which is going to cost a lot - and yet it is the engineer's mistake/bad advice. Where does she stand with this - she has asked him for a substantially reduced fee re retention, but is still really annoyed about it. Neither she, nor I, know anything at all really about planning regs. Thanks.

Gumbo

Very hard to read the post. Can you space it out a bit.
But, the first proble, the solicitor stating that the works in 89 didn't need permission and misunderstanding of the 7 year rule was the first problem. This is complete nonsense on the solicitors part and I'm surprised they stated this.

I have heard it this week also from an estate agent, telling my mate that his bay window didn't need planning as it's there over 7 years! I quickly shot him down.

Edit : when your sister first bought the property, did she get a survey carried out?
This would have highlighted the extensions, and the surveyor would have recommended the buyer request an opinion of compliance with the granted planning or cert of exempted development, this would have stopped your sister buying at that time.

The engineer should have known about the planning rules, BUT and here's the big BUT, did you engage him to study the planning implications or just to make sure the structure was designed safe and replace like for like?

Hannaho

Hi! Thanks for your reply. No my sister engaged him to do both - the rere extension was similar - the walls were built to replace existing walls - but the back wall was extended out slightly further. My sister also put on a porch - and was very vocal that the porch could not contravene any planning laws - and he told her that as long as it was within 50 sq metres for porch and rere extension that the wasn't in any contravention of planning laws - he never mentioned that the side extension completed over 20 years ago was included in the 50 sq metres - my sister is a stickler for rules and regulations and wouldn't be the type of person who would just try it on to see what she could get away with - so this situation is very stressful for her. She has also many emails between her and the engineer asking him if everything was in line with planning, which he said it was. Where to from here?

December2012

It's her house, it's her responsibility. She knew the house was extended to the side and the rear and the porch.

Angry bird

First off it's 40 sq. Metres for exempt rear extensions. Solicitor was talking through his hole. Engineer should have picked it up yes but the fee to do drawings and fee for planning is not that big. Move on, life is too short. IF engineer is unwilling to reduce fee or whatever, hire a draughtsman or technician to do drawings and lodge planning for you. Annoying yes but not worth going full retard on, in my opinion.

Metric Tensor

It sounds like your sister got poor advice from her solicitor and subsequently her engineer. As the owner of the house the responsibility is still hers.

Firstly, when she bought the house the side extension did not have planning permission and still does not have planning permission. It is not exempt. What her solicitor should have told her is that if it exists 7 years the owner cannot be forced to knock it. This does not mean it has planning or is exempt. She should have forced the original owner to get retention for the side extension at the time of purchasing but as she didn't so that she has to get retention now.

In most cases, one can build a rear extension with certain limitations up to 40 sq metres without planning. Not 50. If the original rear extension, or the new one is 50 square metres she needs to apply for retention for that too. As above she should have made the vendor do this for the original extension prior to purchasing.

It is possible in certain circumstances to build a very small porch on the front of a house without planning. However, seeing as she is going for retention on everything else she may as well do the porch too rather than trying to make herself certain that it is exempt.

BryanF

Hannaho wrote: »

Hi! Thanks for your reply. No my sister engaged him to do both - the rere extension was similar - the walls were built to replace existing walls - but the back wall was extended out slightly further. My sister also put on a porch - and was very vocal that the porch could not contravene any planning laws - and he told her that as long as it was within 50 sq metres for porch and rere extension that the wasn't in any contravention of planning laws - he never mentioned that the side extension completed over 20 years ago was included in the 50 sq metres - my sister is a stickler for rules and regulations and wouldn't be the type of person who would just try it on to see what she could get away with - so this situation is very stressful for her. She has also many emails between her and the engineer asking him if everything was in line with planning, which he said it was. Where to from here?

Before you fall out with the engineer, write to them instructing them to apply for retention planning 'permission', explain you won't be paying any submission fees or council fees, and discuss who will be paying for the council contributions for extension in excess of 40m2

Metric Tensor

Did your sister get the engineer through the builder or did she source him separately?

Johnnyhpipe

What were the engineers schedule of services?

Was he engaged to:

1. Design a structure only? I.e prepare some sketches and show something that won't fall down?

Or

2. Review planning requirements (assuming you didn't engage an architect also?), make a planning application if necessary, and then design the structure?

If its only 1 above then perhaps the engineer has done everything he was asked to do. Perhaps he could have given advice, or at least referred you to an architect who deals with this.. but strictly speaking, he's not obliged to give you any reduction in fee for not doing something you didn't ask him to do in the first place - if of course that's the case!

Personally, in my own line of work as purely a structural engineer, I do not have any involvement in planning aspects of the building itself, only preparation of planning stage drainage drawings/reports. This is always clearly outlined on every project. I'm surprised to read on here quite often about how many people use engineers for full planning. This is not a "normal service" outlined in the standard "conditions of engagement" as far as I recall.

Hannaho

Hi!! Thanks for all the replies. To update. My sister phoned her solicitor and there was planning permission obtained for two storey side extension in 1976. However, the solicitor told her that because the engineer went 5 feet beyond the original exempted rere extension, telling my sister, that the side extension did not matter, and she was still within the 40q metres - she has lots of emails to him asking him to ensure it was within 40q metres - the extension now needs retention - but if he had just replaced the existing rere extension and not gone 5 feet beyond it - there would have been no issue. My sister's solicitor said that the engineer should have known that all extensions, whether they had planning or not, or whether to side or rere, had to come in under 40q metres. I rang the lady from the Planning Department in my sister's local Council, who had been to see the house, and she said also that the engineer should have known that the rare extension when it was being rebuilt could not be even slightly extended beyond the original exempted extension, and should have advised my sister that all extensions to side or rere, whether planning was obtained or not, have to come in total to less than 40q metres - she said my sister as a member of the public could not have been expected to know this, and was, in any case, employing an engineer who put themselves forward as a Planning Consultant.

The planing lady was also very annoyed that she had asked the engineer to submit the drawings - both of the original house, and the new drawings - to her three weeks ago, and he had still not done so and she had tried unsuccessfully to contact him.

Apart from this, my partner's brother is an engineer, and after searching the IEI website he rang the IEI to see if the engineer was registered with them as he had said on this website - my partner's brother was told they did not have anyone of the engineer's name registered in any of their branches of engineering currently.

My sister's solicitor says that the engineer should agree, because of the bad advice, to to the planning at his expense, with my sister paying the costs of advertisement etc. I'm not sure she should do this, as the engineer doesn't seem all that competent from what has happened so far.

Gumbo

You can search Engineers Irelands website for members also.
What planning lady is looking for what?
What department is she from and what letters have you got from them?

This all hangs on what the contract is between your sister and the engineer.

Hannaho

Hi! Thanks for your reply. The contract with the engineer was that he was to draw up plans, tender, supervise all stages of the project, do final inspection and ensure that all the works complied with planning permission and building regulations - his fee was 11.250k.

The planning lady in the local Council is looking for the original drawings of the house by the engineer and his drawings for the renovation. She asked him for these, and three weeks later, he still hadn't given them to her.

My sister contacted IEI - they found him on their database - and they said the engineer was an associate engineer and might not be able to sign off on certain aspects of the building works according to some new building regulations. She told them what had happened with the planning and not being able to get Certs of Compliance, and they said definitely put in a complaint. Re the builder and issue with VAT invoice, wiring etc - they said to contact the CIF - my sister signed a CIF contract with the builder - but CIF don't have a record of him - all very strange, but that's where it is at at the moment. IEI thought getting solicitor involved may help.

Metric Tensor

Hannaho wrote: »

IEI thought getting solicitor involved may help.

It'll cost your sister a lot of stress and many years of her life. She would more than likely get some money at the end of the process in 2020ish provided the engineer or builder don't mysteriously become bankrupt in the meantime. In my opinion it's a total waste of time. She should try every way she can to solve it informally.

Johnnyhpipe

Hi,

Just to recheck - "the engineers scope of works was to ensure that the works complied with planning permission and building regulations"

I'm a structural engineer. I provide an opinion on compliance with certain parts of the building regulations - but not planning permission for a building.

I'm not saying he didn't, but this would not be a standard service for most engineers which i know of. Can you clarify that this is definitely the case? Also, presumably there is a written/signed fee agreement which clearly states this? I would also advise resolution without getting legal if posible. The only people who win are the lawyers!

Hannaho

Hi! Totally agree re lawyers - have said to her to stay away if possible. I've looked at the contract and it says that yes the engineer would given an opinion on compliance with building regulations, and that he would also ensure that all building work complied with planning.

Re the previous question about the builder - the builder was sourced through the engineer - he sent it out to tender to three different builders. Why would the builder be using CIF headed paper - a copy my sister said - surely you would have to be CIF registered to get hold of this - though maybe not?

Gumbo

I still don't know what the "planning lady" wants here?

Is there an active enforcement case opened in the site?

What local authority is this in?

The Associate Engineer is not an issue here for signing off as long as he has PI. The IEI are getting mixed up with the BCAR situation and Assigned Certifier engagement which he cannot act into.

Hannaho

It's Wicklow

Glad to hear that associate engineer can sign off but what is PI?

No, there is no active enforcement, I think - planning lady has been out following letter from one of the neighbours - requested drawings of original house, and drawings of renovation, which engineer didn't sent for three weeks after she requested it. She later requested the original planning for two storey extension, and an exemption cert for back extension from engineer when house was purchased 14 years ago.

What does membership of CIF mean - and what does registration mean for builders?

How does my sister get her Cert of Compliance?

Gumbo

Hannaho wrote: »

It's Wicklow

Glad to hear that associate engineer can sign off but what is PI?

No, there is no active enforcement, I think - planning lady has been out following letter from one of the neighbours - requested drawings of original house, and drawings of renovation, which engineer didn't sent for three weeks after she requested it. She later requested the original planning for two storey extension, and an exemption cert for back extension from engineer when house was purchased 14 years ago.

What does membership of CIF mean - and what does registration mean for builders?

How does my sister get her Cert of Compliance?

PI - Professional Indemnity Insurance.
If there's no active enforcement open then what does this planning lady want? I would be giving her nothing! I work very very closely with Planning Enforcement in another LA and I can't get me head around what her involvement in your job is. If there was a valid complaint then the re is an active enforcement file open at present.

If that's the case, then she is trying to determine if a new planning app is required to regularise the situation.

The cert of compliance would have been issued to the home owner at the time of construction.

Hannaho

Yes, there was a complaint, and the planning lady is trying to determine what to do to regularise the situation - so I guess it is an active enforcement order/file. Yes, there is a Cert of Compliance that the original owner got for the two storey extension, but my sister is concerned about getting Cert of Compliance/Opinion on Compliance from engineer who supervised renovation project - it's 10 weeks since completion now, and no sign of these Certs. He says he is waiting for certs from the builder. Does he have to give these Compliance Certs if they were in the contract that he and my sister signed?

Gumbo

Yes he will give the certs alright. He could be been honest by waiting on the builder as he has to provide reci certs, certs for stone fill and window suppliers etc

Hannaho

I didn't realise there were so many certs to get from builder. The engineer only mentioned the RECI Cert. My sister only found out she needed that - or she had forgotten about it - until a new electrician came to put up lights 6 weeks later and said the house wasn't earthed, seal on meter broken, no neutral wire and issue with bonding. As far as I can see from engineer's emails to my sister - the only Certs he thinks he has to supply is the RECI Cert and the Opinion on Compliance, but the IEI did mention that the builder would have to list products he used in walls etc. The house was completely renovated with new windows, all new/ insulation, new plumbing, new wiring - so will certs be needed for insulation etc?

Hannaho

Hi! Kceire, or anyone else who can advisee on planning professionals. As per my other posts re my sister's engineer saying she was exempt from planning and now finding she isn't, has to apply for retention and also has to pay levies of e3400. My sister's solicitor wants her to continue with the original engineer who made the mistake - told her that a two storey side extension did not count when considering 40 sq metre rule, and told her that she could extend the original rear statute barred extension, which lost her the statute barred exemption, all incurring a levy of e3400. Should my sister go with a new planning consultant costing e3100 for just the application? After numerous letters between the original engineer who gave the wrong advice and my sister's solicitor, the original engineer has agreed to waive his fee for retention, because my sister has to pay e3400 in levies. However, my sister doesn't trust him and feels really that he's not competent and won't be diligent in the application. Her solicitor feels that the engineer has all the drawings and it is easier to start with him, and that he owes my sister something for all the extra expense and stress. Would welcome some opinions on this - 3400 is a lot for my sister plus 3100 for planning applicaiton.

irishguy

Sue him and get him to pay for the lot, it was his incompetence that is causing the lost to your sister.

Hannaho

I think my sister is afraid of the law - that he might somehow win or there might be some technicality which could get him out of things, but I think this is a route she should consider, though of course, she would have to pay the new planning consultant/engineer as planning will only take about 6 months, or so we were told, but Court Case would take much longer. Would the engineer have professional indemnity insurance to cover if my sister sued? I'm sure people can go bust/disappear quite quickly when they are getting sued!

Gumbo

Either way, you have to pay the levies. That's a local authority charge so it doesn't matter what planning consultant prepares the retention app now at this stage.

Even if the engineer had of been aware at the start, the levies would still be the same.

My opinion, let the engineer lodge the retention, let him right his wrong as at the end of the day, it's easy to fix. You then will get certificates of compliance from this engineer with planning and building regs. And it's free, so why pay someone else to do it.

From the date of lodgement, retention can be granted 8 weeks afterwards.

The bad workmanship, that's another issue I'm afraid.

BryanF

Combining some posts

Hannaho

Hi! Kceire,

Thanks again for your advice. Re. levies - if the engineer had not said that my sister could go slightly beyond the line of the original extension - original extension and to be knocked due to foundation issues from previous owners - my sister would have retained her statute barred exemption, according to the Planner from the Council - this is what appears to have incurred the levies, and the engineer did not tell her this/was not aware of it. Yes, her solicitor thinks too that the engineer should make the application. The very and always difficult neighbour who complained already is, my sister, has heard from other neighbours, talking about how she is going to take it all the way. Though, it's not interfering with her, overlooking her, - it's basically the same as it was with 3 feet added on to the end of the rear extension. If it gets tricky, I hope the engineer will be competent and diligent enough for it. By the way the engineer has already supplied a Cert of Complianc or Opinion on Compliance - even though this is all going on - if feels like it's not worth the paper it is written on.

Re the workmanship - the builder's electrician has started the work - the Inspector from RECi is coming back to assess next week when remedial work is finished - he's adamant that this is a case he has to follow up - said it was one of the worst cases he'd ever seen.