Means of Escalating Complaint About Neighbours?

ShaShaBear

Asking on behalf of a family member living in their own home (not rented) who have recently acquired neighbours behaving dangerously and appallingly towards them and all in the house.

What is the route of escalation, ie who should they complain to next and what, if any, proof or records should she supply? She has already spoken directly to the neighbours and the landlord (who she is on excellent terms with). This has gotten her nowhere.

To give a small amount of context to the seriousness without making them identifiable, they have muttered physical threats, threatened to permanently damage this relative's car, called the gardaí on this relative three times - one to report laughter, one to report loud music and one to report narcotics (I was present for all three complaints so can attest to their ridiculousness). Should they simply go to the gardaí or is there a more legal approach they should take first?

Atlantic Dawn

Define dangerously and appallingly? If there's threats or physical violence call the Gardaí.

ShaShaBear

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Define dangerously and appallingly? If there's threats or physical violence call the Gardaí.

Publicly slandering the relative with very untrue statements which we have evidence of, using derogatory slurs about the relative's physical appearance and suggesting that they would impose themselves physically, they were heard on the phone threatening to burn out the relative's car not to mention the embarrassment said relative has had to endure having a squad car visit her house on a weekly basis since they moved in.
The relative is going to the gardaí ASAP, but is concerned that this will escalate things if they cannot be removed from the property.

Paulw

Gardai and/or file a complaint with the RTB.

pilly

Did something happen to kick this all off? Why would they be threatening this person?

degsie

Log time/date of all incidents. Is there a back story?

Mrs OBumble

degsie wrote: »

Log time/date of all incidents. Is there a back story?

Yes. The guards would not have sent a squad car around for a complaint of loud music unless there was wayyyyy more background.

ShaShaBear

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Yes. The guards would not have sent a squad car around for a complaint of loud music unless there was wayyyyy more background.

Absolutely no background whatsoever. These people do not know my relative, nor had my relative met them before this point. They have moved out of their last two residences because of "issues" with neighbours. The garda report for callout was that there was no noise heard on the street. My relative invited the garda in and he witnessed two people sitting alone at a kitchen table smoking cigarettes.
I can't give more information lest the story make either party identifiable. Just wanted to know who they should report to next legally to make sure they go through the correct channels, but I can assure you the attacks are unwarranted and downright absurd.

the_syco

Perhaps have your relative arrange a meeting with the Garda Community Liason? If your relative have written proof that the neighbours had been moved for the reason listed above, bring that with them.

biko

Are the new people renters? Does you relative know their landlord?

the_syco

biko wrote: »

Are the new people renters? Does you relative know their landlord?

I assume so;

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Asking on behalf of a family member living in their own home (not rented) who have recently acquired neighbours behaving dangerously and appallingly towards them and all in the house.

What is the route of escalation, ie who should they complain to next and what, if any, proof or records should she supply? She has already spoken directly to the neighbours and the landlord (who she is on excellent terms with). This has gotten her nowhere.

intheclouds

But I mean, when the Guards arrive and there is no loud music or laughter or narcotics - what are they saying to your relative?

Surely your relative is saying to the Guards that they have no idea why a nutjob neighbour is calling them and by the way - they threatened to burn out my car?

the_syco

intheclouds wrote: »

Surely your relative is saying to the Guards that they have no idea why a nutjob neighbour is calling them and by the way - they threatened to burn out my car?

If the neighbours know how to play the Gardai, this may not be as straightforward?

intheclouds

the_syco wrote: »

If the neighbours know how to play the Gardai, this may not be as straightforward?

The Guards arent thick.

Someone moves in and starts making complaints about people who have been living in a property for years with no complaints.

The Guards come out, get a sense of the people being complained about.

They know. They know its BS.

Owryan

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Yes. The guards would not have sent a squad car around for a complaint of loud music unless there was wayyyyy more background.

I witnessed Gardai call to the home of a single mother after a neighbour complained of a house party. It was 4 in the afternoon and sheand her kids were putting up Halloween decorations. I'm her support worker and was there when it happened.

Gardai will usually send someone out to reports like this.

As for the OP all I can advise is that the family should keep a record of any incidents and report them to the gardai and the landlord. Depending on the situation it might also be worthwhile talking to the council.

Situations like this can be horrible to be stuck in, because the victims end up on edge worring about their safety as well as about something happening to their house or car.

ShaShaBear

intheclouds wrote: »

But I mean, when the Guards arrive and there is no loud music or laughter or narcotics - what are they saying to your relative?

Surely your relative is saying to the Guards that they have no idea why a nutjob neighbour is calling them and by the way - they threatened to burn out my car?

Thanks guys, as I suspected, it's best to go straight through the gardaí route with this one.

newacc2015

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Thanks guys, as I suspected, it's best to go straight through the gardaí route with this one.

Have you asked the landlord to evict them? It is relatively easy to evict someone within 6 months of a tenancy. Log a complaint with the RTB as they take a while to be heard

TheDoc

Parchment wrote: »

I would not believe the Gardai would drive to a house about noise or anything else short of assault or threats.

We had massive problems with previous neighbours and the Gardai did not want to know. They do not care about issues between neighbours -unless there is physical harm threatened or carried out. Noise etc is not on the radar for the Gardai.

Depends on the area. Don't buy into every station being stretched to the limit. Some areas the Guards will respond to anything on the go.

Last two areas I've lived in there has been passive patrols during the evenings. That's gone from most places with the cutbacks, but was still a daily occurance in these two areas. And neither would be described as anything close to a troublesome area. Just out on patrol

ShaShaBear

TheDoc wrote: »

Depends on the area. Don't buy into every station being stretched to the limit. Some areas the Guards will respond to anything on the go.

Last two areas I've lived in there has been passive patrols during the evenings. That's gone from most places with the cutbacks, but was still a daily occurance in these two areas. And neither would be described as anything close to a troublesome area. Just out on patrol

It would be very common in my area to have foot and motor patrol regularly, especially at night. Especially if there is a disco on as we are a border town. They have now started harassing another neighbour close to my relative and the guards have called down with paperwork regarding their next step and their rights.

seagull

Best option is probably to get onto the landlord. Point out that antisocial behaviour by tenants can become the responsibility of the landlord if ignored.

Dardania

seagull wrote: »

Best option is probably to get onto the landlord. Point out that antisocial behaviour by tenants can become the responsibility of the landlord if ignored.

Do you have any regulations to justify that statement?

Michael D Not Higgins

Dardania wrote: »

Do you have any regulations to justify that statement?

Section 15 of the RTA 2004.

15.—(1) A landlord of a dwelling owes to each person who could be potentially affected a duty to enforce the obligations of the tenant under the tenancy.

(2) In subsection (1) “person who could be potentially affected” means a person who, it is reasonably foreseeable, would be directly and adversely affected by a failure to enforce an obligation of the tenant were such a failure to occur and includes any other tenant under the tenancy mentioned in that subsection.

(3) This section does not confer on any person a right of action maintainable in proceedings before a court for breach of the duty created by it; the sole remedy for such a breach is by means of making a complaint (where the conditions specified in section 77 for doing so are satisfied) to the Board under Part 6.

(4) Nothing in subsection (3) affects any duty of care, and the remedies available for its breach, that exist apart from this section.

infogiver

Write formally to the landlord informing him of your concerns and warning him that you will have no hesitation escalating a complaint to the PRTB
All this information is on the PRTB website including the complaint form

seagull

Dardania wrote: »

Do you have any regulations to justify that statement?

Here's an example of the extreme end of the scale. Landlord fined €30k for tenants’ actions

Dardania

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Do you have any regulations to justify that statement?

Section 15 of the RTA 2004.

15. (1) A landlord of a dwelling owes to each person who could be potentially affected a duty to enforce the obligations of the tenant under the tenancy.

(2) In subsection (1) person who could be potentially affected means a person who, it is reasonably foreseeable, would be directly and adversely affected by a failure to enforce an obligation of the tenant were such a failure to occur and includes any other tenant under the tenancy mentioned in that subsection.

(3) This section does not confer on any person a right of action maintainable in proceedings before a court for breach of the duty created by it; the sole remedy for such a breach is by means of making a complaint (where the conditions specified in section 77 for doing so are satisfied) to the Board under Part 6.

(4) Nothing in subsection (3) affects any duty of care, and the remedies available for its breach, that exist apart from this section.

seagull wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Do you have any regulations to justify that statement?

Here's an example of the extreme end of the scale. Landlord fined 30k for tenants actions

Probably covered, but this is dependent upon the lease between landlord & tenant having a note about anti-social behaviour being a no-no?

Michael D Not Higgins

Dardania wrote: »

Probably covered, but this is dependent upon the lease between landlord & tenant having a note about anti-social behaviour being a no-no?

No, a lease cannot contract out of legal obligations. Not engaging in anti-social behaviour is one of the obligations of the tenant within RTA 2004 and is applicable with or without any statement about anti-social behaviour within the lease:

not behave within the dwelling, or in the vicinity of it, in a way that is anti-social or allow other occupiers of, or visitors to, the dwelling to behave within it, or in the vicinity of it, in such a way

It is further defined what is construed as anti-social behaviour:

“behave in a way that is anti-social” means—

(a) engage in behaviour that constitutes the commission of an offence, being an offence the commission of which is reasonably likely to affect directly the well-being or welfare of others,

(b) engage in behaviour that causes or could cause fear, danger, injury, damage or loss to any person living, working or otherwise lawfully in the dwelling concerned or its vicinity and, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, includes violence, intimidation, coercion, harassment or obstruction of, or threats to, any such person, or

(c) engage, persistently, in behaviour that prevents or interferes with the peaceful occupation—

(i) by any other person residing in the dwelling concerned, of that dwelling,

(ii) by any person residing in any other dwelling contained in the property containing the dwelling concerned, of that other dwelling, or

(iii) by any person residing in a dwelling (“neighbourhood dwelling”) in the vicinity of the dwelling or the property containing the dwelling concerned, of that neighbourhood dwelling.

So if a landlord ignores complaints or does not follow up on complaints, he is liable to cover costs of any action, as shown in the quoted news item.

Uriel.

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Asking on behalf of a family member living in their own home (not rented) who have recently acquired neighbours behaving dangerously and appallingly towards them and all in the house.

What is the route of escalation, ie who should they complain to next and what, if any, proof or records should she supply? She has already spoken directly to the neighbours and the landlord (who she is on excellent terms with). This has gotten her nowhere.

To give a small amount of context to the seriousness without making them identifiable, they have muttered physical threats, threatened to permanently damage this relative's car, called the gardaí on this relative three times - one to report laughter, one to report loud music and one to report narcotics (I was present for all three complaints so can attest to their ridiculousness). Should they simply go to the gardaí or is there a more legal approach they should take first?

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Publicly slandering the relative with very untrue statements which we have evidence of, using derogatory slurs about the relative's physical appearance and suggesting that they would impose themselves physically, they were heard on the phone threatening to burn out the relative's car not to mention the embarrassment said relative has had to endure having a squad car visit her house on a weekly basis since they moved in.
The relative is going to the gardaí ASAP, but is concerned that this will escalate things if they cannot be removed from the property.

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Absolutely no background whatsoever. These people do not know my relative, nor had my relative met them before this point. They have moved out of their last two residences because of "issues" with neighbours. The garda report for callout was that there was no noise heard on the street. My relative invited the garda in and he witnessed two people sitting alone at a kitchen table smoking cigarettes.
I can't give more information lest the story make either party identifiable. Just wanted to know who they should report to next legally to make sure they go through the correct channels, but I can assure you the attacks are unwarranted and downright absurd.

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

No, a lease cannot contract out of legal obligations. Not engaging in anti-social behaviour is one of the obligations of the tenant within RTA 2004 and is applicable with or without any statement about anti-social behaviour within the lease:



It is further defined what is construed as anti-social behaviour:



So if a landlord ignores complaints or does not follow up on complaints, he is liable to cover costs of any action, as shown in the quoted news item.

To be honest, the kind of complaints that the OP has described in this thread are not the traditional "anti-social" behaviours to which the RTA is most likely setup to deal with. The famous "€30k" case mentioned earlier clearly fits the profile for anti-social behaviour. The OP is describing something a bit different and I think it would be very difficult to win a case against a landlord (well, one who is properly represented anyway).

they have muttered physical threats, threatened to permanently damage this relative's car, called the gardaí on this relative three times

Like this example, this would get in to a he said/she said scenario. LL has a word with tenant--- "I never said x", "the neighbour is causing all sorts of trouble for us, the Gardaí are informed and have been called into them x times".

What is an LL to do with that, in fairness? It would be different if there was Garda reports from the neighbour saying the neighbour had to call the Gards down for A-S behaviour etc. Would be very hard for PRTB to hold an LL responsible for A-S behaviour of their tenant - in fact proving A-S would be difficult in the first instance.
A dispute between neighbours is not A-S behaviour prima facie and LL could just as easily be in trouble for wrongful eviction if there is no hard evidence. At the end of the day, judging by what's on this thread, all of the formal complaints are from the tenant against the OP's family, rather than vice versa
OP's family member needs to document everything, gather witnesses and report threatening behaviour to Gardaí and get formal reports from them.