Probation Extended....... Again

BoredEmployee

Hi Guys,

I'm looking for some advice if there are any HR specialists out there. Or anyone with experience in this matter.

I have been with this Tech company for over 3 years. and have been 15 months in my current role.
I'm in a bit of a catch 22 situation as far as I know but I would like to be better educated on my HR rights before I sit down with them again.

My story:(

I was in a separate part of the company and I was approached by HR to see if I would be interested in this role. I was successful in interview so made the move in Aug 15. I am not qualified so am probably being paid significantly less than counterparts even though I contribute a huge and visible financial value to the company. My Original probation period was 6 months and I was not successful as my manager was not happy with all elements of my work. Probation was extended by 30days which went on every month till the 12 month mark.

At this point I had some significant things happening in my life outside of work so as to not add additional stress my manager pushed to give me another 3 months in the role till things had settled down. I was informed at this time that I was unsuccessful in securing the role and they would have to re-advertise the position and would begin interviewing for potential candidates. I was told I could apply for this and I submitted an application and was interviewed.
I was unsuccessful and they hired someone that was part qualified in this field.

I was asked would i spend my last week showing the new person some of the elements that I looked after which I complied with as to not burn bridges.. ( this became a month of 1 to 1 training where I showed this person how to complete the role that I was not capable of completing. ) Also there was position available that I was looking into and I looked to be the right candidate for this. I was unsuccessful here too although was told the person who secured this was way overqualified So i would be kept in mind for other positions if they came up as I made a very good impression.

Plans were made to move me back to my old position which I was not happy with but I wasn't given much choice.

Then

The person I have trained decided that this company was not for them and has handed their notice in.
I have been asked to stay in the position for another 3 months with no promise or guarantee. ( which I want to stay in so I have said yes )

In fact they have re advertised this position to look externally.
I sat with My manager and HR and have said I intend to apply for this position ( AGAIN )
Their response was that I was that I will be unsuccessful as I am not qualified or part qualified and they have identified that this is what is required going forward in this position.

After this 3 months I'm not sure what is happening with me, probably back to my old spot.



Please let me know where you think I stand I'm really not sure about the legalities of what they are doing or if I have more power.
What should I do?
What is my next step?

Thanks.
BE

CIARAN_BOYLE

Can you make arrangements to undergo a training program to get the qualification? Perhaps the employer would be willing to pay for the course or offer study leave and employ you as you seek the qualification.

pilly

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Can you make arrangements to undergo a training program to get the qualification? Perhaps the employer would be willing to pay for the course or offer study leave and employ you as you seek the qualification.

I was going to say this but I wonder if they just don't want OP in that position. It's a hard one to know. I suppose if you offer to start going to college at night for the qualification and they still say no then you'll know.

BoredEmployee

I've said if I was to continue here I would want to become qualified. It really seems to be that they want someone who already has that or is at least half way there.

Do you know where I stand with the fact that they brought me into here knowing that I'm not qualified though? How can they now say that thats the reason they wont keep me on here.


Should I apply for the role again even though i've been told I won't be successful? Are they allowed to discrimanate on before anyone else has even applied?

davo10

BoredEmployee wrote: »

I've said if I was to continue here I would want to become qualified. It really seems to be that they want someone who already has that or is at least half way there.

Do you know where I stand with the fact that they brought me into here knowing that I'm not qualified though? How can they now say that thats the reason they wont keep me on here.


Should I apply for the role again even though i've been told I won't be successful? Are they allowed to discrimanate on before anyone else has even applied?

They brought you in there for without qualifications to see if you could do the job to the required standard. Unfortunately after the probationary period it seems that they have decided to look for a more qualified person. To be fair to them, they seem to have given you every chance.

It's not discrimination of they don't hire you, every employer is allowed to set certain criteria which must be met by applicants, a qualification is among the most, if not the most common criteria.

You are wasting your time reapplying, they have now told you at least twice that you are not the person they want, they are effectively advertising the job you were doing, if they want you, they wouldn't be advertising.

Unfortunately it would seem an opportune time to either gain the qualifications required or move on to another job.

doc11

They just don't see you as the right fit long term. Your performance over 15 month hasn't been good enough in their eyes and all the pieces of paper in the world won't change that.

Bandana boy

It is not about your probation being extended , they think you are not good enough for the role long term , but also right now their most suitable stop gap.


If I was you I would insist on something for digging them out of this hole again .Either a temporary pay rise to the level the role is being pitched at for the time you are doing it or an agreed one of bonus at the end .
You have them at a real disadvantage right now , and they have been fair but firm with your hopes to progress in the role so turn about is fair play .
Maybe also address the qualification you need with them and agree a mean of getting them -part time college etc

Best of luck

doc11

Bandana boy wrote: »

It is not about your probation being extended , they think you are not good enough for the role long term , but also right now their most suitable stop gap.


If I was you I would insist on something for digging them out of this hole again .Either a temporary pay rise to the level the role is being pitched at for the time you are doing it or an agreed one of bonus at the end .
You have them at a real disadvantage right now , and they have been fair but firm with your hopes to progress in the role so turn about is fair play .
Maybe also address the qualification you need with them and agree a mean of getting them -part time college etc

Best of luck

They might insist in showing you the door. Failing probation and then going for a pay rise and bonus :pac:. The company have been more then fair extending probation and giving back old position when things didn't work out.

TonyStark

Seriously look for a new job! Why are you not looking for opportunities outside of this organisation?

Why are you letting them keep you on probation. If it's extended by a month and you don't reach the goals then you should move otherwise you should negotiate the ending of probation and being made permanent, after agreed goals and objectives have been met. Your viewed as cheap labour in their eyes.

It would seem you met your goals and targets implicitly because if you didn't you would be shown the door they renewed your probation 6 times. But you keep agreeing to have your probation extended and this suits them.You are essentially agreeing to your situation.

They are making a serious fool of you.

Bandana boy

doc11 wrote: »

They might insist in showing you the door. Failing probation and then going for a pay rise and bonus :pac:. The company have been more then fair extending probation and giving back old position when things didn't work out.

He failed probation on a new role , and as such was to be reinstated in previous position . No issue with this.There is and should be No danger of being shown the door for trying to move forward.

Now having done the role without the extra pay attached for over a year they want to move him back.
All good an in their right , although using him for so long is a little mean.

They have gone a different route and it failed and they want him to stop gap it again , this time having clearly explained that there is no chance of progression in helping us out .
Absolutely look after your own interests here , Company will not be surprised and I would be amazed if this caused bad blood.

davo10

Bandana boy wrote: »

He failed probation on a new role , and as such was to be reinstated in previous position . No issue with this.There is and should be No danger of being shown the door for trying to move forward.

Now having done the role without the extra pay attached for over a year they want to move him back.
All good an in their right , although using him for so long is a little mean.

They have gone a different route and it failed and they want him to stop gap it again , this time having clearly explained that there is no chance of progression in helping us out .
Absolutely look after your own interests here , Company will not be surprised and I would be amazed if this caused bad blood.

I'd agree, company can't have their cake and eat it. It's pretty lame to tell someone they are not good enough for the job then ask them to stay on until they get someone else. Op, I'd look for a job somewhere else but in the meantime I'd tell them to either pay you more or move you back now.

BoredEmployee

Some really interesting advice here guys thanks so much. I think I will be seeking Op's elsewhere.

Definately feel that I have been undervalued and used.
Bandana boy I like your thoughts on looking for some sort of bonus for digging them out of a hole. So I may go down that route. Im in no fear of being out of work the worst that will happen is I go back to my old position.

Ursus Horribilis

Yeah, if I was in your shoes I'd be looking elsewhere too. The question that came to my mind was why they continued to use you in this position for so long if you were unsuitable. Sure, they flagged that you weren't meeting targets and rejected you at interview but it still doesn't explain why it took them so long to recruit someone new. Methinks there's an element of forked tongue going on here.

Having said that, was there nothing you could've done in the meantime to upskill? Did you express an interest in it? I wonder would that've made a difference?

screamer

They cannot keep doing that and if you failed probation you should have been let go. I'd look into it a bit further because AFAIK after 10 months it's very difficult to just terminate someone. Sounds like a horrible company to work for and id be looking around but also looking into what you're entitled to legally. Sounds like they have a sloppy HR department TBH.

davo10

screamer wrote: »

They cannot keep doing that and if you failed probation you should have been let go. I'd look into it a bit further because AFAIK after 10 months it's very difficult to just terminate someone. Sounds like a horrible company to work for and id be looking around but also looking into what you're entitled to legally. Sounds like they have a sloppy HR department TBH.

He failed probation for a new job in the same company, and is now being moved back to his previous job. There is no mention of him being let go.

Avatar MIA

Funny how some people think this company is a bad employer from the information given.

Another way of looking at it is that the company gave the OP plenty of time to improve. As most posts they are a one sided story, but even then the OP admits he's not disagreeing with the company's assessment.

In truth an organisation won't give 2 F's if a person has passed their exams or not if they are doing a good job. It seems like a person being 'promoted to a level of incompetence'. That sounds harsh, but we all have that level, each of us in certain circumstances.

The OP has had a 15 month "interview" for the role and has been found unsuitable.

I don't see how the company has done anything wrong, they gave the OP an opportunity, it didn't work out and the company are trying to make the best of it.

People saying the OP should look for another job are over reacting and I suspect are "projecting".

OP, the current role is not for you. Go back to your old role and win back the company's confidence AND pass the remaining exams.

TonyStark

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Go back to your old role and win back the company's confidence AND pass the remaining exams.

I think that normally I would agree with what you say. But rather than a typical situation where someone goes for a job, doesn't get it and then life resumes as normal. This is not as simplistic as that.

Why does the company not leave the situation vacant and recruit to fill it. If the OP is so unqualified, unsuited and has no chance in getting the job on a second interview... why is he still doing the job?

You ask what the company has done wrong?

• They have kept him on a rolling probation
• They have failed to provide him the necessary training to do the job in that 15 months
• They are using him as cover to cover a role at a reduced rate

Your advice is for him to return and sit beneath the table with his tail between his legs and wait for "another opportunity".

My advice is to seize the day. He has 15 months of experience of that role under his belt. He should be using this as a platform to secure another role like that in another company. Secure the qualifications with another company who are willing to support him rather than use him.

Avatar MIA

TonyStark wrote: »

You ask what the company has done wrong?

• They have kept him on a rolling probation
• They have failed to provide him the necessary training to do the job in that 15 months

A rolling probation is where the employee is told they are not currently meeting the standards required of the job, but are given another opportunity to improve - we have no idea if adequate training was given - I suspect, reading between the lines the company seems hands on and is unlikely to have left him to his own devices. In fact his manager was empathetic enough to take his personal circumstances into account as a reason for his poor performance. The company seems damned for giving the OP another chance rather than demote him immediately.

TonyStark wrote: »

why is he still doing the job?

You ask what the company has done wrong?

• They are using him as cover to cover a role at a reduced rate

He's surmising he is on a reduced rate because he is unqualified. Yes, he probably is, but he company has seen the error in utilising an unqualified person and are seeking to rectify it. They gave the guy a chance, it hasn't worked. Of course they are going to keep the current person in the role to facilitate the workings of the company. I don't understand the logic of this criticism of the company. The OP is being retained by the company and will need to perform the role best suited to the company until they hire his replacement.

TonyStark wrote: »

Your advice is for him to return and sit beneath the table with his tail between his legs and wait for "another opportunity".

My advice is to seize the day. He has 15 months of experience of that role under his belt. He should be using this as a platform to secure another role like that in another company. Secure the qualifications with another company who are willing to support him rather than use him.

Yes, the OP was given an opportunity he couldn't take advantage of whether for personal, educational or other reasons and needs to re-prove to the company he is valuable to the company. That may sound utilitarian and tough love, but there's no point sugar coating it. Using expressions like 'tail between his legs' is not useful. The reality is that he under performed.

Why do you think the OP would be more successful in another company, another company that may not even acknowledge or take into account his personal circumstances.

It's easy to give bravado and anonymous advice from the comfort of a keyboard.

Personally, I think the OP needs to take responsibility for his own circumstances/performance and move on with what seems like a pretty accommodating company.

dobsdave

This is what I would do:
Go back to my manager and tell him I no longer wish to 'fill-in' in this role.
Tell him that I feel I need to concentrate on gaining the qualifications that they are looking for.
Reference the fact that I feel he doesn't have confidence in my work on an ongoing basis.
Thank him for the opportunity, but do not look for a raise or a bonus.
Take the time to start the courses and/or looking for an equivalent job elsewhere.

Avatar MIA

dobsdave wrote: »

This is what I would do:
Go back to my manager and tell him I no longer wish to 'fill-in' in this role.
Tell him that I feel I need to concentrate on gaining the qualifications that they are looking for.
Reference the fact that I feel he doesn't have confidence in my work on an ongoing basis.
Thank him for the opportunity, but do not look for a raise or a bonus.
Take the time to start the courses and/or looking for an equivalent job elsewhere.

There's not much wrong with the above. There is a little element of sulking about it, but we're all entitled to do that. However, the slight enjoyment gotten from this (the feeling of taking back control) will backfire proportionately in that the OP will be seen as selfish and it probably wont help his future prospects, but as long as he's okay with that...

dobsdave

Future prospects? "were looking for someone else"
sulking?
No.The company are making a fool of him/her.
Either the OP is of acceptable standard or not.
I think they have been quite accomodating to the company already.
They can't have it both ways.

Avatar MIA

dobsdave wrote: »

Future prospects? "were looking for someone else"
sulking?
No.The company are making a fool of him/her.
Either the OP is of acceptable standard or not.
I think they have been quite accomodating to the company already.
They can't have it both ways.

Have you read the OP's posts? He has a job within the company to fall back on. The OP is not at an acceptable standard for his current role. This happens, it's not even rare.

Re your last two sentences :rolleyes:

dobsdave

Why the need for rolleyes? you don't agree, fair enough.
I have been in this position many years ago, the fact there is a position to return to is key.
I think the OP should call the companys bluff.

Avatar MIA

dobsdave wrote: »

I have been in this position many years ago...

As I suspected people are projecting.

dobsdave wrote: »

... the fact there is a position to return to is key.
I think the OP should call the companys bluff.

Manager ‘Unfortunately, despite giving him a number of chances and pointing out his shortcoming at each probation stage Boredemployee
didn’t work out in his current role’


HR Manager ‘Well, we’ll need to start the hiring process for his replacement. And there’s no point wasting his time or getting his hopes up by
letting him go forward for interview considering we’ve been reviewing him in this role for the last 15 months.’


Manager ‘I was thinking about that. Suppose Boredemployee got the advice from some Keyboard Warriors saying he should just demand to
go back to his old role immediately if we were truthful about him not being considered.’


HR Manager ‘Well, we don’t have to offer him his old role back, after all Okayemployee is already in that role. I suppose, if we were a shít company,
we could simply exit him out of the company due to non-performance. It would take time and we’d need to follow proper procedure to
ensure we don’t end up before the WPRC, but it could be done and the process has already started considering we’ve documented his
unsuitability over the last 15 months.



Manager Now that I think of it I don’t think it will come to that. I’m sure he appreciates the business needs of the company, besides I think he
was grateful we took his personal circumstances into account that time he’d his personal issues.

TonyStark

It's easy to give bravado and anonymous advice from the comfort of a keyboard.

Personally, I think the OP needs to take responsibility for his own circumstances/performance and move on with what seems like a pretty accommodating company.

If advancement wasn't supported in the more senior role then the probability of advancement in his old role is zero. When you start using words like 'accommodating' when describing a company then you've already missed the point of business.

Avatar MIA

TonyStark wrote: »

If advancement wasn't supported in the more senior role then the probability of advancement in his old role is zero.

He has already advanced from his old role, but wasn't suitable for the position he moved to on this occasion.

TonyStark wrote: »

When you start using words like 'accommodating' when describing a company then you've already missed the point of business.

I strongly disagree. The company accommodated the OP when he had personal issues. It didn't work out for the company this time, but that doesn't mean they should rule out accommodating employees in the future when they get into difficulty - as employees can overcome such temporary set backs.

TonyStark

Avatar MIA wrote: »

dobsdave wrote: »

I have been in this position many years ago...

As I suspected people are projecting.

dobsdave wrote: »

... the fact there is a position to return to is key.
I think the OP should call the companys bluff.

Manager Unfortunately, despite giving him a number of chances and pointing out his shortcoming at each probation stage Boredemployee
didn t work out in his current role


HR Manager Well, we ll need to start the hiring process for his replacement. And there s no point wasting his time or getting his hopes up by
letting him go forward for interview considering we ve been reviewing him in this role for the last 15 months.


Manager I was thinking about that. Suppose Boredemployee got the advice from some Keyboard Warriors saying he should just demand to
go back to his old role immediately if we were truthful about him not being considered.


HR Manager Well, we don t have to offer him his old role back, after all Okayemployee is already in that role. I suppose, if we were a sh t company,
we could simply exit him out of the company due to non-performance. It would take time and we d need to follow proper procedure to
ensure we don t end up before the WPRC, but it could be done and the process has already started considering we ve documented his
unsuitability over the last 15 months.



Manager Now that I think of it I don t think it will come to that. I m sure he appreciates the business needs of the company, besides I think he
was grateful we took his personal circumstances into account that time he d his personal issues.

I do think there is merit and quite elegant about being able to make a point concisely. :-)
It's highly unethical for a company to keep an employee in a state of prolonged probation hoping that a better candidate would come along. When that said candidate throws in the towel, for what we can infer is probably more company reasons than the job they want the OP to continue.

Avatar MIA

TonyStark wrote: »

I do think there is merit and quite elegant about being able to make a point concisely. :-)

You've been talking rubbish

TonyStark

Avatar MIA wrote: »

TonyStark wrote: »

If advancement wasn't supported in the more senior role then the probability of advancement in his old role is zero.

He has already advanced from his old role, but wasn't suitable for the position he moved to on this occasion.

TonyStark wrote: »

When you start using words like 'accommodating' when describing a company then you've already missed the point of business.

I strongly disagree. The company accommodated the OP when he had personal issues. It didn't work out for the company this time, but that doesn't mean they should rule out accommodating employees in the future when they get into difficulty - as employees can overcome such temporary set backs.

Doesn't mean a person should take a step back career wise to "repay" kindness.

Avatar MIA

TonyStark wrote: »

Doesn't mean a person should take a step back career wise to "repay" kindness.

He's not taking a step back. He's been put back. There's a world of difference.

Should the OP consider a better position in another company if he can get it. Of course, but the same goes for all of us at any time. We all do it.

TonyStark

Avatar MIA wrote: »

TonyStark wrote: »

Doesn't mean a person should take a step back career wise to "repay" kindness.

He's not taking a step back. He's been put back. There's a world of difference.

Should the OP consider a better position in another company if he can get it. Of course, but the same goes for all of us at any time. We all do it.

I am glad you've come around to our way of thinking - at last. :-)

Avatar MIA

TonyStark wrote: »

I am glad you've come around to our way of thinking - at last. :-)

Just goes to show some people only see what they want to see.

BTW, I've advice for you TS, you could consider applying to another company for a new job. No need to thank me for the advice, I realise it's just common sense.

weisses

davo10 wrote: »

I'd agree, company can't have their cake and eat it. It's pretty lame to tell someone they are not good enough for the job then ask them to stay on until they get someone else. Op, I'd look for a job somewhere else but in the meantime I'd tell them to either pay you more or move you back now.

Not good enough for the job but good enough to train up someone else ... Just as I thought I heard it all .

Avatar MIA

weisses wrote: »

Not good enough for the job but good enough to train up someone else ... Just as I thought I heard it all .

Correct.

weisses wrote: »

Not good enough for the job but good enough to train up someone else ... Just as I thought I heard it all .

Yip, that's how business works to get the new person up to speed to the level the OP is at for starters.

weisses wrote: »

Not good enough for the job but good enough to train up someone else ... Just as I thought I heard it all .

Possibly, have you heard the one about the Siberian Tiger and the Creepy Clown?

Optimalprimerib

If I was the op I would be sending my CV out to find a role in a different company. You now have 15 months experience in a role that no piece of paper would offer.

We are not seeing the full picture here, but I cannot understand how a company could keep someone in an interim role like that for 15 months and then say they are unsuitable. If you were that incompetent, surely they would just revert you back to your original position or let you go.

They are mistreating you in my eyes so I would look for legal advice to see if they can do that.

Avatar MIA

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

They are mistreating you in my eyes so I would look for legal advice to see if they can do that.

In any given scenario what do you think would be the outcome of seeking the legal advice assuming the company was in breech (I don't think they are given the information we have)?

BTW, that's 15 month's of not exactly stellar performance or are you relying on his current company giving him a glowing reference just to be rid of him?

Optimalprimerib

Avatar MIA wrote: »

In any given scenario what do you think would be the outcome of seeking the legal advice assuming the company was in breech (I don't think they are given the information we have)?

BTW, that's 15 month's of not exactly stellar performance or are you relying on his current company giving him a glowing reference just to be rid of him?

Look I don't know if there is a case here and either do you, that's why I would seek professional guidance.

I have learnt in my professional career that you are just a number to your employer and that they are also just a number to you. You are not stuck in a job, you can move on and you can carry whatever experience you have with you.

This company is struggling to fill what seems to be a very difficult role to fill with very unrealistic expectations if the person they have for 15 months is not suitable.

In my ideal world, leaving them high and dry with nobody would be a beautiful revenge.

Wile E. Coyote

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

leaving them high and dry with nobody would be a beautiful revenge.

Revenge for what exactly? They gave him an opportunity to advance to a new role within the company. Extended his probation numerous times during a 15 month period, despite him not living up to expectations. They also took into account his personal circumstances when extending his probation on one occasion in the hope that things would turn around but they didn't.

No one likes being told they're not good enough for a position but sadly thats the case here. The OP is naturally feeling hard done by but it doesn't benefit anyone by looking for revenge. If he's really serious about gaining a full time job in this role he should use this as an opportunity to figure out where he went wrong and learn as much as possible so he can take that experience to another company.

In my opinion though this isn't the right job for the OP and going back to college or doing a course will be a waste of time. If he hasn't been able to grasp the role after 15 months of hands on training, a couple of night a week study and a piece of paper isn't going to make a difference.

Wile E. Coyote

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Revenge for what exactly? They gave him an opportunity to advance to a new role within the company. Extended his probation numerous times during a 15 month period, despite him not living up to expectations. They also took into account his personal circumstances when extending his probation on one occasion in the hope that things would turn around but they didn't.

No one likes being told they're not good enough for a position but sadly thats the case here. The OP is naturally feeling hard done by but it doesn't benefit anyone by looking for revenge. If he's really serious about gaining a full time job in this role he should use this as an opportunity to figure out where he went wrong and learn as much as possible so he can take that experience to another company.

In my opinion though this isn't the right job for the OP and going back to college or doing a course will be a waste of time. If he hasn't been able to grasp the role after 15 months of hands on training, a couple of night a week study and a piece of paper isn't going to make a difference.

Not right for the OP at the moment would be a better way of putting it, there could be lots of things going on including immaturity, getting more and different experiences and then replying for a similar the role in a few years and they could have a different experience. It should be make clear to individuals that acting up may be considered as an advantage when the position become vacant but it does not mean they will automatically get the position. If that was very clear beforehand to individuals it would save a lot of issues.

Avatar MIA

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

Look I don't know if there is a case here and either do you, that's why I would seek professional guidance.

Given the information the OP has supplied there is no wrong doing on the company's part.

As it stands I'd go as far as saying they've been very accommodating.

You cannot see an issue but you're happy to give advice that the OP should shell out money to see a legal professional.

And I suspect you're not the first person on this thread that's judging the OP's situation through the lens of their own bad experience.

kidneyfan

You can't be on probation for more than a year. So OP you have a job there for what that's worth.
What remedy do you want for this?

Is there some indication that they are discriminating against you? For example are you the only Irish person among the techies?