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State paid two million euro in 2015 for white elephant
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28-10-2016 8:34am#1Today's Irish Times runs a piece without comment on the boondoggle that has been the M3. Not content with providing massive outdoor relief at the construction phase, the Government paid out €2m in shadow tolls to the private operator in 2015 alone.
I don't see an Irish Times editorial fulminating that this shady little scheme should be ripped up and turned into a greenway, but hey, this is Ireland and snouts in the trough are fine if they are private ones.
Ker-Ching!7
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I'm sure building a railway line from Dunboyne to Navan would be cheaper for the state ... :rolleyes:0
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Carawaystick wrote: »I'm sure building a railway line from Dunboyne to Navan would be cheaper for the state ... :rolleyes:
It would have been, but bear in mind that the railway was almost certainly going to be on a predictable route that couldnt be fundamentally changed for political reasons. Motorways are a blank slate and consequently a godsend for lobbying.0 -
I'm sorry, do you reckon a railway would cost the state less to subvent than the road? Given that the road subvention is split between the M3, and the N3 to Kells0
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Carawaystick wrote: »I'm sorry, do you reckon a railway would cost the state less to subvent than the road? Given that the road subvention is split between the M3, and the N3 to Kells
We would have to see just how much was chunked out in construction and land purchase costs first. What is the ongoing financial commitment for the taxpayer? I'm not going to pull figures out of my bum, but nor am I going to do the job of an investigative journalist either, if we had any willing to buck the national consensus of predict and provide roads to service sprawl.0 -
The new road layout at Blanchardstown are fantastic addition and I darent think what the traffic would have been like without them.
I said at the time and still believe that the motorway really only needed to be brought as far as the Trim / Fairyhouse junction. There is enough traffic leaving there to allow an enhanced N3 to function just as well. By That I mean to include bypasses of Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells.
The above changes would have been sufficient imho.
Regarding the train, I just dont know the finances of a Navan link. However, the train from Dunboyne needs to get into town quicker to make it worth peoples while. I think it takes over 40 minutes. When you add an initial drive, a wait for the train and a final journey on the other side then the time is cranking up.0 -
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The new road layout at Blanchardstown are fantastic addition and I darent think what the traffic would have been like without them.
I said at the time and still believe that the motorway really only needed to be brought as far as the Trim / Fairyhouse junction. There is enough traffic leaving there to allow an enhanced N3 to function just as well. By That I mean to include bypasses of Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells.
The above changes would have been sufficient imho.
Regarding the train, I just dont know the finances of a Navan link. However, the train from Dunboyne needs to get into town quicker to make it worth peoples while. I think it takes over 40 minutes. When you add an initial drive, a wait for the train and a final journey on the other side then the time is cranking up.
A quick look at the timetable online at irishrail.ie says 33 mins from Dunboyne to Docklands. Not bad going considering how snarled up the bus gets.0 -
two million LOL. I cant wait to hear, what loses some of the rail lines are losing...0
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Idbatterim wrote: »two million LOL. I cant wait to hear, what loses some of the rail lines are losing...
Classic double standard. Spaff money on ill-advised road schemes that line pockets? Yeah, I'm breaking my swiss laughing all right. A few more have laughed all the way to the bank on the back of that, but that's acceptable.0 -
Is the 300 million plus a year IÉ get just burnt? or does that go to peoples pockets too?0
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hang on, I am assuming the usage is below forecast? the government or NTA or whoever drew up the contract. The private operator hasn't exactly put a gun to their head for the two million...Classic double standard. Spaff money on ill-advised road schemes that line pockets? Yeah, I'm breaking my swiss laughing all right. A few more have laughed all the way to the bank on the back of that, but that's acceptable.0 -
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Carawaystick wrote: »Is the 300 million plus a year IÉ get just burnt? or does that go to peoples pockets too?
I'm struggling to understand the connection between IÉ and a bad PPP deal on a Motorway. What is known is that several FF donors and Chums did well out of the Motorway programme.
I'm sure there is more to tell about the deals done behind the scenes on these developments. Ireland is after all a small place and there are a lot of vested interests to satisfy. Perhaps that's one reason railways are so unpopular in some quarters. Not much cash in them to get rich by.0 -
There's loads of money in railways. Irish rail get 300,000,000 euros per anum from the stateNot much cash in them to get rich by.
They got a hundred million to open the line between Ennis and Athenry, and then run no trains if it rains too much...
If we're looking at white elephants...0 -
I'm struggling to understand the connection between IÉ and a bad PPP deal on a Motorway. What is known is that several FF donors and Chums did well out of the Motorway programme.
I'm sure there is more to tell about the deals done behind the scenes on these developments. Ireland is after all a small place and there are a lot of vested interests to satisfy. Perhaps that's one reason railways are so unpopular in some quarters. Not much cash in them to get rich by.
Well said.0 -
This thread is complete nonsense. A motorway was built, which is partly paid for by tolls, which has nothing whatsoever to do with railways.0
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Charles Babbage wrote: »This thread is complete nonsense. A motorway was built, which is partly paid for by tolls, which has nothing whatsoever to do with railways.
I agree. There's already a zoo thread on the board where all the WRC haters and greenway campaigners can pat themselves on the back.0 -
Charles Babbage wrote: »This thread is complete nonsense. A motorway was built, which is partly paid for by tolls, which has nothing whatsoever to do with railways.
Whatever about railways, it is ridiculous that an agreement was made whereby the State (ie: us!) would compensate the toll company for any shortfall on their projected revenue.
As with the financial crisis and "bailout", Ireland Inc sure is great when it comes to all reward and no risk.. because even if it fails, the taxpayers will cough up anyway!0 -
I'm struggling to understand the connection between IÉ and a bad PPP deal on a Motorway. What is known is that several FF donors and Chums did well out of the Motorway programme.
I'm sure there is more to tell about the deals done behind the scenes on these developments. Ireland is after all a small place and there are a lot of vested interests to satisfy. Perhaps that's one reason railways are so unpopular in some quarters. Not much cash in them to get rich by.Charles Babbage wrote: »This thread is complete nonsense. A motorway was built, which is partly paid for by tolls, which has nothing whatsoever to do with railways.
To put this into perspective for you, Rail Line was meant to go to Navan however the line was only built to the M3 parkway park and ride. This park and ride facility is located on the Dublin Side of the toll plaza rather than located on the Navan side. As a result people have to pay a toll and then pay for parking charges to use public transport into the city. The kicker of course is that the operator gets free money for non existent traffic off the state. Thus we have the biggest joke where a private operator gets paid for non existent traffic and people get triple charged by both a toll AND having to pay for parking and a rail ticket.
If this had been designed properly and there was common sense the toll booth would have been located past M3 parkway which would encourage people to leave their car there and travel into Dublin on the train. If it had been built properly the whole line would have been restored to Navan itself and with a bit of modification would have created a loop line via Drogheda
through Navan. Alas the legacy of rip off ireland continues thanks to your local former TD's.0 -
To put this into perspective for you, Rail Line was meant to go to Navan however the line was only built to the M3 parkway park and ride. This park and ride facility is located on the Dublin Side of the toll plaza rather than located on the Navan side. As a result people have to pay a toll and then pay for parking charges to use public transport into the city.
There is no parking charge at the M3 Parkway station.
The toll is 1.40 for a car, if you've just 2 occupants, that's 1.40 per day. It'd cost more than that per day to get a train from Navan to M3Parkway.
I wonder what the useage numbers are like on the M3 vs the train line from Ennis to Athenry, to compare white elephants...0 -
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Yesterday, 08:34 #1
Banjoxed
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State paid two million euro in 2015 for white elephant
Today's Irish Times runs a piece without comment on the boondoggle that has been the M3. Not content with providing massive outdoor relief at the construction phase, the Government paid out €2m in shadow tolls to the private operator in 2015 alone.
I don't see an Irish Times editorial fulminating that this shady little scheme should be ripped up and turned into a greenway, but hey, this is Ireland and snouts in the trough are fine if they are private ones.
Ker-Ching!
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Yesterday, 09:09 #2
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I'm sure building a railway line from Dunboyne to Navan would be cheaper for the state ...
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Yesterday, 09:14 #3
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I'm sure building a railway line from Dunboyne to Navan would be cheaper for the state ...
It would have been, but bear in mind that the railway was almost certainly going to be on a predictable route that couldnt be fundamentally changed for political reasons. Motorways are a blank slate and consequently a godsend for lobbying.
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Yesterday, 09:22 #4
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I'm sorry, do you reckon a railway would cost the state less to subvent than the road? Given that the road subvention is split between the M3, and the N3 to Kells
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I'm sorry, do you reckon a railway would cost the state less to subvent than the road? Given that the road subvention is split between the M3, and the N3 to Kells
We would have to see just how much was chunked out in construction and land purchase costs first. What is the ongoing financial commitment for the taxpayer? I'm not going to pull figures out of my bum, but nor am I going to do the job of an investigative journalist either, if we had any willing to buck the national consensus of predict and provide roads to service sprawl.
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The new road layout at Blanchardstown are fantastic addition and I darent think what the traffic would have been like without them.
I said at the time and still believe that the motorway really only needed to be brought as far as the Trim / Fairyhouse junction. There is enough traffic leaving there to allow an enhanced N3 to function just as well. By That I mean to include bypasses of Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells.
The above changes would have been sufficient imho.
Regarding the train, I just dont know the finances of a Navan link. However, the train from Dunboyne needs to get into town quicker to make it worth peoples while. I think it takes over 40 minutes. When you add an initial drive, a wait for the train and a final journey on the other side then the time is cranking up.
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The new road layout at Blanchardstown are fantastic addition and I darent think what the traffic would have been like without them.
I said at the time and still believe that the motorway really only needed to be brought as far as the Trim / Fairyhouse junction. There is enough traffic leaving there to allow an enhanced N3 to function just as well. By That I mean to include bypasses of Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells.
The above changes would have been sufficient imho.
Regarding the train, I just dont know the finances of a Navan link. However, the train from Dunboyne needs to get into town quicker to make it worth peoples while. I think it takes over 40 minutes. When you add an initial drive, a wait for the train and a final journey on the other side then the time is cranking up.
A quick look at the timetable online at irishrail.ie says 33 mins from Dunboyne to Docklands. Not bad going considering how snarled up the bus gets.
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two million LOL. I cant wait to hear, what loses some of the rail lines are losing...
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two million LOL. I cant wait to hear, what loses some of the rail lines are losing...
Classic double standard. Spaff money on ill-advised road schemes that line pockets? Yeah, I'm breaking my swiss laughing all right. A few more have laughed all the way to the bank on the back of that, but that's acceptable.
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Is the 300 million plus a year IÉ get just burnt? or does that go to peoples pockets too?
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Classic double standard. Spaff money on ill-advised road schemes that line pockets? Yeah, I'm breaking my swiss laughing all right. A few more have laughed all the way to the bank on the back of that, but that's acceptable.
hang on, I am assuming the usage is below forecast? the government or NTA or whoever drew up the contract. The private operator hasn't exactly put a gun to their head for the two million...
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Yesterday, 15:34 #12
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Is the 300 million plus a year IÉ get just burnt? or does that go to peoples pockets too?
I'm struggling to understand the connection between IÉ and a bad PPP deal on a Motorway. What is known is that several FF donors and Chums did well out of the Motorway programme.
I'm sure there is more to tell about the deals done behind the scenes on these developments. Ireland is after all a small place and there are a lot of vested interests to satisfy. Perhaps that's one reason railways are so unpopular in some quarters. Not much cash in them to get rich by.
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Not much cash in them to get rich by.
There's loads of money in railways. Irish rail get 300,000,000 euros per anum from the state
They got a hundred million to open the line between Ennis and Athenry, and then run no trains if it rains too much...
If we're looking at white elephants...
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I'm struggling to understand the connection between IÉ and a bad PPP deal on a Motorway. What is known is that several FF donors and Chums did well out of the Motorway programme.
I'm sure there is more to tell about the deals done behind the scenes on these developments. Ireland is after all a small place and there are a lot of vested interests to satisfy. Perhaps that's one reason railways are so unpopular in some quarters. Not much cash in them to get rich by.
Well said.
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This thread is complete nonsense. A motorway was built, which is partly paid for by tolls, which has nothing whatsoever to do with railways.
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This thread is complete nonsense. A motorway was built, which is partly paid for by tolls, which has nothing whatsoever to do with railways.
I agree. There's already a zoo thread on the board where all the WRC haters and greenway campaigners can pat themselves on the back.
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This thread is complete nonsense. A motorway was built, which is partly paid for by tolls, which has nothing whatsoever to do with railways.
Whatever about railways, it is ridiculous that an agreement was made whereby the State (ie: us!) would compensate the toll company for any shortfall on their projected revenue.
As with the financial crisis and "bailout", Ireland Inc sure is great when it comes to all reward and no risk.. because even if it fails, the taxpayers will cough up anyway!
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Originally Posted by Logue no2 View Post
I'm struggling to understand the connection between IÉ and a bad PPP deal on a Motorway. What is known is that several FF donors and Chums did well out of the Motorway programme.
I'm sure there is more to tell about the deals done behind the scenes on these developments. Ireland is after all a small place and there are a lot of vested interests to satisfy. Perhaps that's one reason railways are so unpopular in some quarters. Not much cash in them to get rich by.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Babbage View Post
This thread is complete nonsense. A motorway was built, which is partly paid for by tolls, which has nothing whatsoever to do with railways.
To put this into perspective for you, Rail Line was meant to go to Navan however the line was only built to the M3 parkway park and ride. This park and ride facility is located on the Dublin Side of the toll plaza rather than located on the Navan side. As a result people have to pay a toll and then pay for parking charges to use public transport into the city. The kicker of course is that the operator gets free money for non existent traffic off the state. Thus we have the biggest joke where a private operator gets paid for non existent traffic and people get triple charged by both a toll AND having to pay for parking and a rail ticket.
If this had been designed properly and there was common sense the toll booth would have been located past M3 parkway which would encourage people to leave their car there and travel into Dublin on the train. If it had been built properly the whole line would have been restored to Navan itself and with a bit of modification would have created a loop line via Drogheda
through Navan. Alas the legacy of rip off ireland continues thanks to your local former TD's.
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Today, 00:49 #19
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To put this into perspective for you, Rail Line was meant to go to Navan however the line was only built to the M3 parkway park and ride. This park and ride facility is located on the Dublin Side of the toll plaza rather than located on the Navan side. As a result people have to pay a toll and then pay for parking charges to use public transport into the city.
There is no parking charge at the M3 Parkway station.
The toll is 1.40 for a car, if you've just 2 occupants, that's 1.40 per day. It'd cost more than that per day to get a train from Navan to M3Parkway.
I wonder what the useage numbers are like on the M3 vs the train line from Ennis to Athenry, to compare white elephants...
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Today, 03:10 #20
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There is no parking charge at the M3 Parkway station.
The toll is 1.40 for a car, if you've just 2 occupants, that's 1.40 per day. It'd cost more than that per day to get a train from Navan to M3Parkway.[/quote]
but then again getting the train from navan may not cost more. either way the fact people are tolled while on their way to use public transport is more irish nonsense that couldn't be made up.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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Carawaystick wrote: »There is no parking charge at the M3 Parkway station.
The toll is 1.40 for a car, if you've just 2 occupants, that's 1.40 per day. It'd cost more than that per day to get a train from Navan to M3Parkway.
I wonder what the useage numbers are like on the M3 vs the train line from Ennis to Athenry, to compare white elephants...
Or, put another way, don't look at the boondoggle aspects of the M3 project, because Ireland is run in a particular way and 'we' have no intention of ever challenging that. Also, I forgot that running a car is a cost free exercise compared to the iniquity of paying a fare to Iárnrod Eireańn. Thanks.0 -
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Or, put another way, don't look at the boondoggle aspects of the M3 project, because Ireland is run in a particular way and 'we' have no intention of ever challenging that. Also, I forgot that running a car is a cost free exercise compared to the iniquity of paying a fare to Iárnrod Eireańn. Thanks.
There are no doubt plenty of vested interests who would rather we didn't discuss the stich up that was the M3 Motorway, the land purchase process and it's unique tolling arrangements.
No, it's clear from this thread that some people would rather we didn't discuss the M3 at all.0 -
There are no doubt plenty of vested interests who would rather we didn't discuss the stich up that was the M3 Motorway, the land purchase process and it's unique tolling arrangements.
No, it's clear from this thread that some people would rather we didn't discuss the M3 at all.
Sure, the only bad road is a railroad.0 -
_Kaiser_ wrote:Whatever about railways, it is ridiculous that an agreement was made whereby the State (ie: us!) would compensate the toll company for any shortfall on their projected revenue.
What the state did was when it went looking for private investmen/loans to part fund the road, they said they'd guarantee a certain return on investment. The tolls ideally would cover that return and may eventually over the life time of the toll road/loan. The government could have not decided to guarantee a certain return but you probably would have been looking at higher toll fees to cater for the increased risk to private investors who part funded the road.
It's nothing unusual or underhand. You'd imagine given the long life of the loans and steady if unspectacular returns that the ultimate beneficiaries of that money would be private pension funds. Which would mean at least some of the money will end up back in people's pockets.0 -
I've always liked American economist Ellen Browns take on ppp projects, whereby the private entity bags the profit and public bags the risk!0
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Wanderer78 wrote:I've always liked American economist Ellen Browns take on ppp projects, whereby the private entity bags the profit and public bags the risk!
There was nothing stopping the government putting out an offer that would have seen the private sector take the risk but naturally a greater return I.e. higher toll fees would have been required to get the same level of funding. By getting private sector funding it meant the government didn't have to spend as much of its own money and the money saved could be put towards other uses.0 -
There was nothing stopping the government putting out an offer that would have seen the private sector take the risk but naturally a greater return I.e. higher toll fees would have been required to get the same level of funding. By getting private sector funding it meant the government didn't have to spend as much of its own money and the money saved could be put towards other uses.
good point alright but we have to start rethinking money, i.e, its creation, its distribution and ultimately its control. handing this over to a largely privately owned system is not working.0 -
There was nothing stopping the government putting out an offer that would have seen the private sector take the risk but naturally a greater return I.e. higher toll fees would have been required to get the same level of funding. By getting private sector funding it meant the government didn't have to spend as much of its own money and the money saved could be put towards other uses.
so let the users of the road pay. how many trucks for example use it. the money being spent on a form of subsidy to the toll company could have been spent on something else.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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Toll company donates money to main government party.
Government gives aforementioned toll company contract that guarantees it can't lose money.
Nothing to see here folks. :rolleyes:0 -
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I think that the scenario you are thinking of is :
Toll company builds a bridge for IR£10 million. Bridge is not connected to anything.
Government builds the M50 to cross the bridge at IR££££££££££.
Toll company collects tolls from millions of cars forcing them to queue for hours because of their inefficient collection system.
Government is forced to buy out the toll franchise for €500 million because of the delays and traffic congestion. Gov must continue tolling to try to recoup the €500 million.
Not sure who gained but I know who lost.0 -
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Wanderer78 wrote:good point alright but we have to start rethinking money, i.e, its creation, its distribution and ultimately its control. handing this over to a largely privately owned system is not working.
The thing is no one makes money on this per say. Even the private company who loan out the money can still make a loss if the return they get is lower than their cost of capital for the funds they lend. The return is macro as in improvements in the quality of life for the people living in the towns and villages on the old road due to reduced traffic volumes and additional investment generated in the areas near the motorway.
The loan is reputablely 30 years(I'm open to correction on how long the tolls will last for). I don't see the big deal with private companies lending money and getting a return. Based on the longevity and the relatively low but consistent above inflation return at least some of that money will be going back into people's pension funds. Pension funds generally have the capital to invest and also would be interested in the long loan life.
The question I have is which is cheaper for the taxpayer. If its cheaper with private sector involvement/frees up money for other projects I don't see why you'd get bogged down in ideology. Given the large amounts of money these type of projects require you'd hope and imagine that all funding options would be analyzed on a project by project basis.0
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