Luger Rifle?

gunnut96

A guy called tac foley commented on forgotten weapons website that the Irish Army are in possession of an extremely rare Luger rifle.

Can any one confirm this?

tac foley

Not a Luger rifle, but a Luger carbine. I bleeve it is in the National Army Museum, AFAIR.

tac

deeksofdoom

And you can be sure they drilled holes in the barrel and welded the action.

tac foley

I recall that it had been deactivated, just like the revolver belonging to the late General Michael Collins. Pity, that.

tac

Grizzly 45

Errr..NOPE! Think there is some confusion here.We don't have a Luger rifle.We have a Luger Artillery pistol /carbine that is a SELECT FIRE.

From last accounts+/-18 months from an inside source its still alive and well in the storage in the Curragh.It cant be deacted because no one knows who the Hell owns it or where it came from. What makes it unique is it is a Luger carbine based on an artillery model.Nice wooden box with all the Luger bits like matching serial number wood stocks,snail drum, etc.With a nice wooden foldable foregrip under the barrel

I SURMISE it is a gangster gun conversion done by Hyman[ Lebman of San Antonio Texas sometime in the 1920s.Lebman is famous for making full auto conversions of pistols for some of the famous gangsters of the era like John Dillingers full auto 1911 45 ACP

http://www.guns.com/2012/09/26/lebman-1911-machine-pistol

It has all the hallmarks of a Lebman conversion,but might not be his work at all.
Post WW1 these were ten a penny guns as war trophies,and back then a Thompson SMG was still huge money to the average person at 250 usd[even for well heeled gangsters] So why not take a cheaply available Luger and convert it for say 40 dollars..[All pre GCA 1932 times of course.] And have something effective,concealable and lose able if need be?

However,the big mystery here is HOW did it end up in Ireland?WHO owned it and WHEN and WHERE did it arrive?There is I bet some story to that gun and it is incredibly valuable both historically and from a technical point as the Lebman guns are incredibly rare.Think the FBI have most of them in their gun archive.How we came to it being a Lebman conversion or not or maybe,here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057066056/3

tac foley

I learn something every day, me. Thanks for that, Sir.

tac

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

However,the big mystery here is HOW did it end up in Ireland?WHO owned it and WHEN and WHERE did it arrive?There is I bet some story to that gun and it is incredibly valuable both historically and from a technical point as the Lebman guns are incredibly rare.Think the FBI have most of them in their gun archive.How we came to it being a Lebman conversion or not or maybe,here.

Don't forget that the irish mob were very much to the forefront in prohibition era bootlegging as well as the usual labour rackets and other organised crime. I know that with the italians when things get too hot over there, they go back to italy and wait for attention to cool off. Maybe the irish done the same thing ? Return to the old country and lie low for a while.

Lebman was an interesting character, and i believe suffered police/fbi snooping for the rest of his life, even though he wasn't really breaking any laws back then.

gunny123

tac foley wrote: »

I recall that it had been deactivated, just like the revolver belonging to the late General Michael Collins. Pity, that.

tac

The usual act of vandalism, i'd expect nothing better in this jerkwater town.

garrettod

Hi,

Which museum are we talking about please ....The Curragh ?

Is it open to the public and if so, worth the effort ?

Thanks.

deeksofdoom

I know of an artillery Luger in a small little museum in west cork. Probably a WW1 capture that found its way into the hands of the IRA.

If it was in perfect working condition and had all the bells and whistles it would be worth a fortune.

sfakiaman

I saw a Luger carbine in a Maharajas palace near Varanasi many years ago. I drooled over it for a long time .

Savage93

tac foley wrote: »

Not a Luger rifle, but a Luger carbine. I bleeve it is in the National Army Museum, AFAIR.

tac

beautiful firearm
http://jamesdjulia.com/item/1159-369/

IrishTarget

link to an article on the pistol.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/28/potd-1911-machine-pistol/

Savage93

gunnut96 wrote: »

A guy called tac foley commented on forgotten weapons website that the Irish Army are in possession of an extremely rare Luger rifle.

Can any one confirm this?

One for sale here , beautiful piece
https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/DWM-Martz-Custom-Luger-Carbine-with-Scope-and-Stock/33064589/LotDetail.asp?lid=33064589&origin=1

tac foley

Savage93 wrote: »

One for sale here , beautiful piece
https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/DWM-Martz-Custom-Luger-Carbine-with-Scope-and-Stock/33064589/LotDetail.asp?lid=33064589&origin=1

Notwithstanding the fine craftsmanship of Mr Martz' work, that, Sir, is a FrankenLuger if ever there was one.

Eye bleach, please.

tac

gunny123

Interesting guy who hasn't many videos on youtube yet, but has some nice firearms, and isn't over the top like a lot of american gun channels.

https://youtu.be/BhKgEWPolzg

tac foley

From John Walters' definitive manual on the Luger pistol - 'The Luger story', P.196 - a few pistol-carbines were made in the 1920's, though they were chambered for standard [9mm Parabellum] ammunition, and lacked the auxiliary recoil spring found in the fore-end of most pre-1914 examples......Carbines were even made from Old Model or pre-1913 P.08 frames, new stock lugs being welded onto the butt-heel whenever necessary.

The example shown by the gentleman in the movie is a puzzle. It lacks the forward recoil mechanism, hidden under the wooden forend - he says that there is only a hanger there.

He also notes that the toggle assembly is marked S/42. He also noted that the magazine has an aluminium base.

So what does he have?

He has a carbine that has a receiver dated to at least 1936, when DWM had their assets sold off the Simpson & Sohn of Suhl. Herr Hitler did not care for the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine to have their service pistols made by Jews, so he ordered the almost immediate transfer of everything to Mauser of Oberndorf. They instantly began the manufacture of the P.08, but used their own code letters as an identifier, in this case, S/42, later simply byf until the cessation of production sometime in 1942/3.

ALL Luger genuine carbines were made by the original manufacturers of the Luger pistol - Deutsche Waffen-und Munitionfabrik of Berlin, formerly Ludwig Loewe, employers of Georg Luger, who invented it in the first place, iow, DWM.

Post 1923/4 magazines were mostly aluminium-based and then in 1934 Hugo Schmeisser perfected the extrusion process that replaced the folded metal sheet magazine. Haenel Waffen -und Fahrradfabrik, base in Suh, made them with the code letters fxo until 1941. His magazine may therefore dated from the middle 1920s or be later.

Who made his carbine, and when?

That is not known, but all the genuine original carbines were made between 1900 and 1902, and had serial numbers between 21599-21992 and 23401-24792. They were also in 7.65 Luger calibre, not 9mm Parabellum, a calibre that did not exist at that time.

Some so-called 'parts-carbines where made during the early 1920s of the Weimar Republic, but again, they used DWM actions and other parts. A few of these were in 9mm Parabellum. Nobody else actually made the Luger pistol except the Swiss, with their own rather odd-shaped straight butt grip, and called the Model 1929 in 7.65 Luger, not 9mm Parabellum, and a few made in UK by Vickers, for the Dutch military in the then-Dutch East Indies.

The trigger, safety catch and take-down latch on this pistol show signs of the heat treatment called 'strawing' from the golden colour it gives to the parts so treated, so they might be from another pistol altogether.

It's a very nice gun to own, but its provenance is highly questionable.

tac
formerly of lugerforum.com

gunny123

Tac, if you want to ask any questions about this carbine, do so in the comment section under the video in youtube. The gentleman has the manners to respond and will do so. It looks to me to be a high quality piece no matter who made it. The stock is made of excellent walnut and is very well finished, the bluing is also very well done. Would it have been a take back piece commissioned by an american officer, after the war ? Maybe made to suit him ?

tac foley

gunny123 wrote: »

Would it have been a take back piece commissioned by an american officer, after the war ? Maybe made to suit him ?

Not by the Germans - they were prohibited from making military calibre firearms for a number of years after the end of the war. The French made the Walther P.38 and sundry other Walther pistols under the brand-name of Manurhin - Manufacture d'Armes du Haute Rhine - until about 1952 or so.

I believe that the gentleman who owns it knows what he has hence his remark about some of the viewers knowing what that means when he mentions 'S/42'.

I'm not trying to buy it, or detract from his obvious pride of ownership of whatever it might be. As you say, it is a beautiful firearm.

The late American gunsmith, John Martz, who made a number of .45cal Luger pistols, may have made this also.

His work is highly-prized and greatly valued, but they are not the genuine item.

tac

gunny123

tac foley wrote: »

His work is highly-prized and greatly valued, but they are not the genuine item.

tac

I could make space for it in my safe, believe me.

tac foley

Me, too, if they weren't banned here in yUK.....:(

tac

Grizzly 45

Other possibility, that this is a presentation piece for some contract award or bribe back when, to whomever?
It certainly looks like bespoke workmanship,and I'm certainly curious as to how the fore end stays on.

tac foley

As the owner mentioned, the fore-end is attached by a latch to a 'hanger' - this is an extension to the vertical front of the frame onto which the latching mechanism is, uh, latched, just as with a latching-style shotgun fore-end. The entire action of the Luger, including the barrel, moves about half an inch in recoil before the toggles hit the rear 'hump' of the frame, thus 'breaking the elbow lock' and allowing the breechblock/toggle assembly to accomplish the full stroke of the action and carry out the reload.

John Martz DID make bespoke Luger variations - including a replication of the ultra-rare so-called 'baby Luger', the Luger carbine with the scope on it shown on the thread already - as well as undisclosed number of others - and at least ten, maybe more, of the .45cal Luger originally made for the US pistol trials back in 1909-10. His work was outstanding in every respect - one of his .45s is in the Smithsonian, so you would expect any of his examples to look like the one owned by the presenter, as indeed they should, for upwards of $25,000 way back then. An original five-digit carbine recently sold for over a $120K. A number of the originals WERE 'presentations' to worthy persons of the time. Lucky recipients included Kaiser Wilhelm II and President Theodore Roosevelt and others of that ilk.

John V. Martz, Custom gunmaker, passed away July 15th 2013 after a brief illness. He was 88. John served in the Navy in WW2, then worked as an aircraft sheetmetal worker for 25 years. In 1968 he started working on Lugers and P-38s as a hobby. He invented the Martz Safe Toggle Release, which one author once said was the one improvement George Luger should have thought of, but didn`t. John was a self taught gunsmith and went on to create many beautiful Luger and P-38works of art. He only used worn finish or mismatched Lugers as "donor guns", he would not cut up a collectible piece.

See here - http://www.onlinehuntingauctions.com/John-Martz-Custom-Luger-Navy-Carbine_i21581944

tac

gunny123

Another interesting and rare (i never heard of one) firearm, from this channel. A straight pull conversion of a mauser 98 rifle. He thinks the conversion was offered by Kettner of Germany.


https://youtu.be/JcTRwbk1Onc

tac foley

Thanks, Gunny - fascinating stuff, eh? That thing is slicker than weasel snot, for sure! I was also very interested in the modified Snider - never seen one of those before, ever, nor likely to.

I have two ordinary Sniders, and they are real fun to shoot.

tac