Home Automation: Fibaro Dimmer2 Retrofit into existing 2-Way/Intermediate Switches

eddiem74

Looking for any Fibaro Dimmer2 Retrofit expertise...

http://manuals.fibaro.com/fgd-212/

So my house has various 2-Way/Intermediate Switching as per the below diagrams.




I am trying to retrofit install Dimmer2's however am struggling to find a wiring option that does not result in me losing all switches bar one.

I was looking at various wiring diagrams here:

http://www.vesternet.com/resources/application-notes/apnt-112

Anyone done this and found a way?

2011

There are several options available to you.
For example, use the wiring arrangement shown in Fig 4.
The text accompanying this diagram states:

"Using the Fibaro Dimmer 2 with momentary switches enables the easy creation of 3-way lighting circuits, in fact an infinite number of momentary switches can be wired in parallel to create 3-, 4-, 5-, 6-way... lighting systems."

eddiem74

2011 wrote: »

There are several options available to you.
For example, use the wiring arrangement shown in Fig 4.
The text accompanying this diagram states:

"Using the Fibaro Dimmer 2 with momentary switches enables the easy creation of 3-way lighting circuits, in fact an infinite number of momentary switches can be wired in parallel to create 3-, 4-, 5-, 6-way... lighting systems."

http://www.vesternet.com/media/wysiwyg/Application_notes/APNT112_Fibaro_Dimmer_multi-Way_Wiring.png

I had initially thought that myself but those diagrams appear to require the live and switch wire at the same switch whereas per the drawings of my wiring above that is not the case.

Stoner

Yes as 2011 says. The strappers (the l 1 and l2) in the new arrangement become a pair of parallel cables.

IMO you'd need to go to the switch that has the permanent live.
You have a choice of where to put the dimmer

Imo a REC would have two installation options. If the house is wired the "Irish" way

Above the first light in the circuit in the ceiling Here you will have a switched live neutral and earth.

You will need a permanent live and the strappers. So you need to pull in a pair of strappers and a permanent feed to the dimmer in the ceiling from the light switch with the permanent live .

Second
If you have room in the switch box, at the switch with the permanent live you will have the permanent live and the strappers so you need a neutral from the light circuit back at the switch point.


This is why it is recommended that for home av that the neutrals are brought to the light switch and or the feeds are looped at the light switches as they do sometimes in the uk.

eddiem74

Stoner wrote: »

Yes as 2011 says. The strappers (the l 1 and l2) in the new arrangement become a pair of parallel cables.

IMO you'd need to go to the switch that has the permanent live.
You have a choice of where to put the dimmer

Imo a REC would have two installation options. If the house is wired the "Irish" way

Above the first light in the circuit in the ceiling Here you will have a switched live neutral and earth.

You will need a permanent live and the strappers. So you need to pull in a pair of strappers and a permanent feed to the dimmer in the ceiling from the light switch with the permanent live .

Second
If you have room in the switch box, at the switch with the permanent live you will have the permanent live and the strappers so you need a neutral from the light circuit back at the switch point.


This is why it is recommended that for home av that the neutrals are brought to the light switch and or the feeds are looped at the light switches as they do sometimes in the uk.

Thanks for the replies.

Ok so based on the above my only options are:

1) Lose 2-way/intermediate switches in order to give me 1 good switch
2) Run additional wiring which will be challenging without opening ceilings or lifting floor boards and chasing walls potentially

Am I correct?

Stoner

eddiem74 wrote:

1) Lose 2-way/intermediate switches in order to give me 1 good switch 2) Run additional wiring which will be challenging without opening ceilings or lifting floor boards and chasing walls potentially

If it was me I'd get a neutral to the switch with he permanent live if I had room in the wall to hold the dimmer.

Stoner

I'm looking at the one cct diagram you sent and I can't see where you are getting your option one from

eddiem74

Stoner wrote: »

If it was me I'd get a neutral to the switch with he permanent live if I had room in the wall to hold the dimmer.

I will have this assessed to check the feasibility but if I remember correctly the joists will be running the wrong way and the electrician that wired the house tacked a lot of the wiring to the joists, so it could be quite problematic trying to trace without taking down a large portion of the ceiling. That's in addition to seeing if the existing conduit could squeeze another cable and how to get it in there...

eddiem74

Stoner wrote: »

I'm looking at the one cct diagram you sent and I can't see where you are getting your option one from

Sorry "cct" ? Typo or?

Option 1 was suggested as an option by the vendor who supplied the Dimmer2 modules. Basically lose the extra wall switches and keep the wall switch will the perm live and then using the wiring between the wall switches to connect/join-up the switch wire/live, if I understood it all correctly.

Hope that makes sense.

Stoner

eddiem74 wrote:

Sorry "cct" ? Typo or?

Sorry cct = circuit

Stoner

eddiem74 wrote:

Option 1 was suggested as an option by the vendor who supplied the Dimmer2 modules. Basically lose the extra wall switches and keep the wall switch will the perm live and then using the wiring between the wall switches to connect/join-up the switch wire/live, if I understood it all correctly.

Hmm not sure I get that but anyway where would you get the neutral from . I see where a strapper could give you the switched live if you connected it at the switch with the switch wire present. Giving you the p alive and sw live at the one location. But the circuit diagram you sent shows the dimmer getting a neutral. That neutral is not present in any of your switch diagrams, it's up at the light fitting

eddiem74

Stoner wrote: »

Hmm not sure I get that but anyway where would you get the neutral from . I see where a strapper could give you the switched live if you connected it at the switch with the switch wire present. Giving you the p alive and sw live at the one location. But the circuit diagram you sent shows the dimmer getting a neutral. That neutral is not present in any of your switch diagrams, it's up at the light fitting

The nice thing with the Dimmer2 module in terms of a retrofit is that it works in a 2-wire or 3-wire scenario so neutral is actually not required.

Scroll down to Installation section here: http://manuals.fibaro.com/fgd-212/

I have it working in rooms where I have 1 wall switch controlling the lights in that room without a neutral, when I tried to extend to rooms with 2-way and intermediate I hit the snag...

eddiem74

This is what Vesternet tech support have replied:

Unfortunately it appears you’re one wire short. The Dimmer does need to be wired to both Live and the Output and there’s no way around I’m afraid :-(

The attached diagram would work but you have no COM wire between both switches.

If you have no way of running an additional wire I would suggest to:

- Install the Dimmer on the first switch location with the Wall Switch
- Disable the other 2 wall switches and use 1 of the 2 wires to connect S/L to light
- Use Nodon wall switch at other switch positions to control the Dimmer 2 via Associations - http://www.vesternet.com/z-wave-nodon-wall-switch-3074

Stoner

OK I'll have a better look at this later

But a couple of things
Pg 10 shows that the s1 and sx connections require two cables to link a number of switches.


Your three switches are inter connected by two cables , good stuff but unfortunately you will lose one cable

Now if you have this on a regular switch working that's fine I've had dimmers on x10 systems that dont need a neutral too.

But a regular switch will have a live (p live) and a switched live (s live) present. You dont have that.

So your issue is that you have three switches , but the p live is at one and the s live is at the other. ( Forget the intermediate sw)

So the pair of linking lives (strappers) between your switches , you'd have to use one to bring either a s live to one switch or a p live to the other. The intermediate switch in the middle would have to be removed and the L2 joined to L2 and the L1 to L1. Then say at the switch with s live at it , connect the s live to to either strappers, now back at the switch with the s live one of the strappers is now the s live.

So you lose a strapper and the ability to link switches as shown on page 10.

So your options are.

On the switch with the permanent live at it. Pull a switch wire from the fitting to it or from the switch with the switch wire in it to it.

Or at the switch with the switch wire in it, get a permanent live to it from another switch etc.

Then your strapper pair remains and you have page 10 capabilities


I understand it's difficult. But you can get the skive p live etc all at either two way switch

Stoner

OK I see it now, there was a 35 page manual there but I saw the dimmer 2 diagram


So it's showing the neutral at the dimmer being linked to Sx so its working off a tiny imbalance current like the old kit i had

Well the advice above stands . Pick a switch location and use the sx cable to give you the neutral by linking them.

If you've had done this before at a regular switch and it worked , really all you are doing is getting one extra cable to a light switch by using a strapper. You are getting rid of the intermediate switch because you just want the cables to continue straight through it

You could leave it there and just use it to join the cables it would be redundant though

All that said if you genuinely can't get any cables to any positions, you seem to know the run of your house , then you are stuck and you have to pick a location from two of your three current switch positions.

eddiem74

Stoner wrote: »

OK I see it now, there was a 35 page manual there but I saw the dimmer 2 diagram


So it's showing the neutral at the dimmer being linked to Sx so its working off a tiny imbalance current like the old kit i had

Well the advice above stands . Pick a switch location and use the sx cable to give you the neutral by linking them.

If you've had done this before at a regular switch and it worked , really all you are doing is getting one extra cable to a light switch by using a strapper. You are getting rid of the intermediate switch because you just want the cables to continue straight through it

You could leave it there and just use it to join the cables it would be redundant though

All that said if you genuinely can't get any cables to any positions, you seem to know the run of your house , then you are stuck and you have to pick a location from two of your three current switch positions.

Thanks, yes seems some decisions to be made, I think I am coming round to the fact some switches will be lost.

However it seems I might be able to make use of a battery operated door/window sensor connected a potentially unused switch now to still trigger lights from the switch by association with the dimmer2 module, if really needed.

http://manuals.fibaro.com/door-window-sensor/

Stoner

eddiem74 wrote:

However it seems I might be able to make use of a battery operated door/window sensor connected a potentially unused switch now to still trigger lights from the switch by association with the dimmer2 module, if really needed.

With your system surely you could have wireless switches anywhere you want. Mine is like that, once I have a device hooked up to 220V I can pair switches to it. 6 max including the app so as many phones and tablets etc that I want plus 5 other things, have you a remote control for it ?

I'd imagine you could buy two wireless switches and stick them at the existing switch locations , pair them to that new smart switch ?

That's how most of these work that I've seen. They are just usually pricy.

eddiem74

Stoner wrote: »

With your system surely you could have wireless switches anywhere you want. Mine is like that, once I have a device hooked up to 220V I can pair switches to it. 6 max including the app so as many phones and tablets etc that I want plus 5 other things, have you a remote control for it ?

I'd imagine you could buy two wireless switches and stick them at the existing switch locations , pair them to that new smart switch ?

That's how most of these work that I've seen. They are just usually pricy.

Yes I could use a battery operated z-wave switch or the door/window sensor in conjunction with an existing switch I believe. I can then associate either option with the existing dimmer2 module so it knows its state and can alter it by button press.

Fibaro modules retrofit to existing switches and uses a z-wave network but the nice thing is if it has issues or fails you can still use your existing switch as normal. This was why I started the thread as I was hoping to maintain existing switches as fallbacks as much as possible for the ultimate solution but in reality will have to make some sacrifices but the wireless option can fill the gaps where really needed.

Fibaro provides an app to control everything and also a controller so you can setup rules and scenes, etc.

https://youtu.be/K35uFXoa5c0