1 room extension "minor work"?

concernedagain

Hello all,

I'm not a frequent boards user so if I've got the etiquette wrong I apologize (and I take direction well)

I've recently had a 1 room extension built and an upstairs toilet and shower fitted.

The one room is a large kitchen with 12 new double sockets.
The shower room has a fan, a couple of lights and an air heater.

It looks like the electrician has added all the kitchen sockets to the existing ring for bedrooms. This already contains 3 double sockets.

This particular ring is not elcb protected as it's the original house wiring. Other rings are elcb protected.

The fan and new toilet lights are connected to the existing lighting ring.

So there are no changes to the 'fuse' board.

From my reading, because there are no changes to the board, it *could* come under 'minor works' and hence only require a minor work reci cert?

Can anyone give me the benefit of their experience? Could a 1 large room kitchen extension, and an upstairs toilet be considered a minor work from a reci point of view?

Does it sound reasonable to add all new sockets onto an existing ring?

Thanks.

brightspark

Adding a socket to a radial circuit could be considered minor works, a ring circuit wouldn't be, wet areas aren't really considered part of minor works either.

More importantly there is no way additional sockets should have been installed without RCD protection.

Was he a RECI electrician?

dolittle

lighting circuit in new toilet/shower area, should this not be rcd/rcbo backed up?

concernedagain

Thanks for the reply brightspark.

I don't know if he is or is not. I would have assumed yes. I've asked the building contractor for a reci cert. I made it clear from day 1 the work would have to be certified. The contractor has asked his electrician and I'm now told I'll get a 'minor cert'.

I'll have to get the electricians name tomorrow and check.

Is this a case of stretching the rules to the limit or it's just wrong?

concernedagain

Hi Dolittle, I believe it should, from my reading. But I'm no expert....

Risteard81

brightspark wrote: »

Adding a socket to a radial circuit could be considered minor works, a ring circuit wouldn't be, wet areas aren't really considered part of minor works either.

More importantly there is no way additional sockets should have been installed without RCD protection.

Was he a RECI electrician?

Why do you believe that adding outlets to a ring final circuit is any less minor works than adding outlets to a radial final circuit? Likewise wet areas if the work does not extend to the provision of a new circuit?
Certainly there may be increased risks and a greater level of competence may be required, but I can't see anything in a definition which would preclude them from being minor works.

Stoner

Regardless of what constitutes minor works the areas that require radial sockets and more than one , I understand if it was done already and it was an existing installation , and I don't know the circumstances.

But

How did the existing kitchen sockets end up as part of a ring circuit for bedrooms?

We know how it's done and how to do it if you started with two radials. But IMO it's minor work to do it in some cases, but that's not the issue imo.

concernedagain

...I can attempt to clarify if I get simple questions ....

Before any work was done there was the kitchen sockets and the bedroom sockets were on the same ring. It was a small house so a total of about 6 double sockets.

Now the new kitchen sockets are added for a total of about 18 double sockets.

Stoner

concernedagain wrote:

Before any work was done there was the kitchen sockets and the bedroom sockets were on the same ring. It was a small house so a total of about 6 double sockets.

These days kitchen sockets are usually radial ccts. There'd be at least two. The bedrooms would be on a different cct. The regs talk about rooms regardless of the size.
Regardless of the size of a kitchen they usually have a high load requirements compared to say bedrooms from years ago.

Dishwasher, dryer, washing machine, fridge, micro, kettle, toaster freezer etc

A kitchen would normally be 2*20amp ccts on an RCD

Low level kitchen sockets for under counter appliances should have an isolator fitted to allow the item eg dishwasher to be isolated for repair.

But of he was adding into an existing installation then I'd agree that adding sockets to an existing ring can be minor work. But you've new rooms added that would need to comply with current standards.

eurokev

You say you got a new shower fitted? Is this correct? Therefore not minor work

concernedagain

Yes, a shower was fitted....

brightspark

Risteard81 wrote: »

Why do you believe that adding outlets to a ring final circuit is any less minor works than adding outlets to a radial final circuit? Likewise wet areas if the work does not extend to the provision of a new circuit?
Certainly there may be increased risks and a greater level of competence may be required, but I can't see anything in a definition which would preclude them from being minor works.

Because radial circuits are specifically mentioned in the legislation note it states radial, not just circuit

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/si/264/made/en/print

(g) Minor electrical works including the replacement of an electrical accessory such as a light switch, the replacement or relocation of a light fitting where the existing circuit is retained, the provision of an additional socket to an existing radial circuit, or electrical works which do not require the issuance of a completion certificate under section 9D of the Act.

I'm not sure how you can put even a single socket in that did not comply with the regulations (no RCD?).

As regards wet areas I'm probably wrong and don't have my regs with me but shouldn't they also be protected by an RCD?

Steve

brightspark wrote: »

I'm not sure how you can put even a single socket in that did not comply with the regulations (no RCD?). ?

Personally I'd be more worried about this tbh.

Regardless of what cert they want to cover the works, this is unsafe.

Risteard81

brightspark wrote: »

(1) Because radial circuits are specifically mentioned in the legislation note it states radial, not just circuit

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/si/264/made/en/print


(2) I'm not sure how you can put even a single socket in that did not comply with the regulations (no RCD?).

(3) As regards wet areas I'm probably wrong and don't have my regs with me but shouldn't they also be protected by an RCD?

Sorry - struggling to get the quotes working properly so have numbered your points and my responses:
(1) And immediately after that it states "or electrical works which do not require the issuance of a completion certificate under section 9D of the Act." Which a modification to an existing ring final circuit does not require.


(2) Of course you can't, but then I don't believe I ever suggested that you could?


(3) Again that doesn't mean it's not minor works if existing circuits are retained.

brightspark

@Risteard81, sorry for the confusion regarding point 2, I didn't mean to imply that you had.

My point was that installing additional sockets without RCD protection is against regulations regardless of the installers requirement to certify the installation.

Points 1&3 we will have to agree to differ on until some court case settles what is and isn't meant by the legislation

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

(1) And immediately after that it states "or electrical works which do not require the issuance of a completion certificate under section 9D of the Act." Which a modification to an existing ring final circuit does not require.

I think you are correct. However I am not 100% convinced, if you look at the reply I got from CER when I was looking for clarification on minor works the word "radial" is used by CER quite a bit:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91119951&postcount=290

(3) Again that doesn't mean it's not minor works if existing circuits are retained.

It should be fixed properly which means installing an RCD, testing properly, certifying etc... which means that it is not minor works in my opinion. Anything else is a gunter and should not be considered (I know you were not suggesting this).

Risteard81

2011 wrote: »

(3) Again that doesn't mean it's not minor works if existing circuits are retained.

It should be fixed properly which means installing an RCD, testing properly, certifying etc... which means that it is not minor works in my opinion. Anything else is a gunter and should not be considered (I know you were not suggesting this).

To be clear my reply was based on the premise that the circuit is already adequately protected (including dedicated RCD etc.) and was simply being altered. If not then adding RCD protection (presuming that this is being done in the distribution board and not externally, e.g. via an RCD FCU) would make it Restricted Electrical Works.

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

To be clear my reply was based on the premise that the circuit is already adequately protected (including dedicated RCD etc.) and was simply being altered.

.......Agreed, that is why I said:

Anything else is a gunter and should not be considered (I know you were not suggesting this).

Stoner

Risteard81 wrote:

To be clear my reply was based on the premise that the circuit is already adequately protected (including dedicated RCD etc.) and was simply being altered. If not then adding RCD protection (presuming that this is being done in the distribution board and not externally, e.g. via an RCD FCU) would make it Restricted Electrical Works.

Yeah let's be honest before we start all having a silly conversation.

This particular job dose not sound like minor works, the whole house had what 6 sockets in it , now it has 18? and a big extension with rooms added and no new switchgear?

Wrt to OP it's gone beyond minor imo. And the op has no RCD .
But that's all I have here an opinion I don't know the full circumstances