no insurance on english license?

thestar

Friend stopped with no insurance here. He has an english license. What will likely happen?

WhoWhatWhere

thestar wrote: »

Friend stopped with no insurance here. He has an english license. What will likely happen?

Why is he driving a car with no insurance??

Skyfarm

aside from the book thrown at them ,they will be put off road for 2 years and the English authorities notified,as far as I'm aware there is an EU directive allowing his ban to be in other EU member countries.

your "friend" needs a good kick in its brain cell,what they did was madness on many many levels,aside from te loading insured drivers,there's human beings that suffer down to acts like this.

GM228

Skyfarm wrote: »

aside from the book thrown at them ,they will be put off road for 2 years and the English authorities notified,as far as I'm aware there is an EU directive allowing his ban to be in other EU member countries

It's not an automatic 2 year ban, a ban is at the discretion of the court and can be a minimum 2 years +.

Fine is usually in the €400-€800 range (but can be up to €5000), and generally the 5 penalty points are handed down instead of a ban, but obviously will depend on the circumstances.

There is no EU wide recognition of driving bans, just an Ireland-UK recognition, but currently that recognition is not in force due to lacking legal framework since late 2015, but it will be back in force under the Road Traffic Bill 2016.

Losty Dublin

thestar wrote: »

Friend stopped with no insurance here. He has an english license. What will likely happen?

Has he insurance taken out in another country that covers him to drive here?

thestar

Losty Dublin wrote:

Has he insurance taken out in another country that covers him to drive here?

Nope, he is just hoping the Garda doesn't bother looking to see did he produce his insurance. He is gone back to London already

GM228

thestar wrote: »

Nope, he is just hoping the Garda doesn't bother looking to see did he produce his insurance. He is gone back to London already

So he/she wasn't insured or just didn't have proof of insurance and the Gardaí gave them 10 days to produce?

Losty Dublin

thestar wrote: »

Nope, he is just hoping the Garda doesn't bother looking to see did he produce his insurance. He is gone back to London already

Chances here of a garda not checking this up are slim to nil. A summons may well be issued in his absence though how it will be served is another story. If s/he wants a clean conscience or record here then they can do worse than to consult a solicitor.

GM228

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Chances here of a garda not checking this up are slim to nil. A summons may well be issued in his absence though how it will be served is another story. If s/he wants a clean conscience or record here then they can do worse than to consult a solicitor.

This is something which Gardaí do follow up on and take very seriously.

The summons would be served via registered post assuming they have the address which I woukd imagine they would as a driving licence would be required to be produced when he/she was stopped.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

GM228

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Can they effect service outside the state?

Actually you have me thinking about that now?

I seem to recall something about it being covered under the Hague Convention subject to leave of the court?

Charles Babbage

Is he driving about uninsured in England, one imagines the Gardai might send his details to London?

coylemj

thestar wrote: »

Friend stopped with no insurance here. He has an english license. What will likely happen?

You say he's returned to the UK so I assume he lives there in which case the licence is a non-issue. Was he driving a borrowed Irish car? If so, the Garda may pursue the owner of the car for permitting it to be driven without insurance.

Pro Hoc Vice

GM228 wrote: »

Actually you have me thinking about that now?

I seem to recall something about it being covered under the Hague Convention subject to leave of the court?

This is a criminal matter not civil.

prinzeugen

I always thought that anyone caught committing a crime here is held until the first available court sitting if they are not residing here?

Ginger83

thestar wrote: »

Friend stopped with no insurance here. He has an english license. What will likely happen?

<<Mod deletion>> its idiots like him that has the insurance industry screwingC honest drivers.

Pls keep it civil
Mod

Pro Hoc Vice

prinzeugen wrote: »

I always thought that anyone caught committing a crime here is held until the first available court sitting if they are not residing here?

Not for an insurance stop, also AGS would have no evidence at the time that he was not insured.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

GM228

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

GM228 wrote: »

Actually you have me thinking about that now?

I seem to recall something about it being covered under the Hague Convention subject to leave of the court?

This is a criminal matter not civil.

I'm aware it's criminal, the Hague Convention just came to mind, hence the question mark, but yes you are correct the HC deals with civil and commercial issues only and not criminal.

But there is international law which allows for it as I was reading something about the very subject recently (I just can't remember the specifics), IIRC there is a requirement however that immunity would apply to any issues which arise and are not part of the summons.

GM228

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Is permitting an offence in Ireland?

Yes, under S56 (3) of the Road Traffic Act 1961 the owner is also quilty of the offence.

Pro Hoc Vice

GM228 wrote: »

I'm aware it's criminal, the Hague Convention just came to mind, hence the question mark, but yes you are correct the HC deals with civil and commercial issues only and not criminal.

But there is international law which allows for it as I was reading something about the very subject recently (I just can't remember the specifics), IIRC there is a requirement however that immunity would apply to any issues which arise and are not part of the summons.

A criminal summons can not be effected outside the state. It would require either the use of the European Arrest Warrant or extradition neither of which would apply for a no insurance matter.

LordSutch

thestar wrote: »

no insurance on english license?

On a legal technicality (for clarity in this thread) I guess English licence = UK driving licence.

I don't think there is a specific 'English' driving licence as such ...

GM228

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

A criminal summons can not be effected outside the state. It would require either the use of the European Arrest Warrant or extradition neither of which would apply for a no insurance matter.

I read an article about this which disagreed, it suggested they could be - a guick search seems to suggest it was covered under The European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters 1959 and The Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters between the Member States of the European Union 2000 and the Criminal Justice (Mutual Assistance) Act 2008.

Also S80 and S81 of the 2008 Act allows for effecting of summons outside the state via post for some criminal matters.

The Northern Ireland case of PPS vs Gallagher [2012] NINAg2
https://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Judicial%20Decisions/PublishedByYear/Documents/2012/[2012]%20NIMag%202/j_j_2012NIMag2Final.htm

confims that summons can be served under international law (subject to the immunity I mentioned) outside of jurisdictions from the UKs point of view and briefly mentions the provisions in Ireland.

The Irish legislative provision for service of an Irish process abroad, as set out below, contrasts with the UK Act of 2003 in two principal respects. First, it enunciates unequivocally, in Section 81(1), that service in a designated State may be by post. Second, it incorporates into Irish domestic law, by virtue of Section 80(7) et sequi a provision for immunity from prosecution.

Pro Hoc Vice

GM228 wrote: »

I read an article about this which disagreed, it suggested they could be - a guick search seems to suggest it was covered under The European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters 1959 and The Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters between the Member States of the European Union 2000 and the Criminal Justice (Mutual Assistance) Act 2008.

Also S80 and S81 of the 2008 Act allows for effecting of summons outside the state via post for some criminal matters.

The Northern Ireland case of [url=https://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Judicial Decisions/PublishedByYear/Documents/2012/[2012] NIMag 2/j_j_2012NIMag2Final.htm[PPS vs Gallagher [2012] NIMAg2[/url] confims that summons can be served under international law (subject to the immunity I mentioned) outside of jurisdictions from the UKs point of view and briefly mentions the provisions in Ireland.

The most important bit in the Act is "no measure of restraint or punishment may be enforced directly by the court in the territory of the other state,"

A summons that can not lead to arrest for non appearance is useless and a waste of time and effort.

The heading to the 1959 convention

"Under this Convention, Parties agree to afford each other the widest measure of mutual assistance with a view to gathering evidence, hearing witnesses, experts and prosecuted persons, etc.

The Convention sets out rules for the enforcement of letters rogatory by the authorities of a Party ("requested Party") which aim to procure evidence (audition of witnesses, experts and prosecuted persons, service of writs and records of judicial verdicts) or to communicate the evidence (records or documents) in criminal proceedings undertaken by the judicial authorities of another Party ("requesting Party")."

To put it simply a summons for no insurance will not be served outside the jurisdiction.

Pro Hoc Vice

GM228 wrote: »

Yes, under S56 (3) of the Road Traffic Act 1961 the owner is also quilty of the offence.

You mean 56(4) as section 56 was amended.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/44/section/34/enacted/en/html

GM228

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

The most important bit in the Act is "no measure of restraint or punishment may be enforced directly by the court in the territory of the other state,"

A summons that can not lead to arrest for non appearance is useless and a waste of time and effort.

But it can lead to an arrest when your in the jurisdiction it was issued in, the restriction is in relation to the jurisdiction the person is in, not the jurisdiction the summons was issued.

So for example if a bench warrant was issued to a UK resident for failure to show it could be executed if they return to Ireland. There's just no recourse whilst they stay outside the state, unless of course someone is convicted for a serious offence here in their absence and they receive a driving ban, that ban would then automatically apply to their UK licence in the UK under the Ireland-UK driving ban recognition agreement which to the best of my knowledge still carries legal status in the UK (but not currently here - it will again here in due course)

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

The heading to the 1959 convention

"Under this Convention, Parties agree to afford each other the widest measure of mutual assistance with a view to gathering evidence, hearing witnesses, experts and prosecuted persons, etc.

The Convention sets out rules for the enforcement of letters rogatory by the authorities of a Party ("requested Party") which aim to procure evidence (audition of witnesses, experts and prosecuted persons, service of writs and records of judicial verdicts) or to communicate the evidence (records or documents) in criminal proceedings undertaken by the judicial authorities of another Party ("requesting Party")."

To put it simply a summons for no insurance will not be served outside the jurisdiction.

I'm not sure why you refer to the heading and conclude no summons will be served? I haven't had a chance to read properly the convention but is there a provision preventing it's use for minor convictions?

GM228

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

You mean 56(4) as section 56 was amended.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/44/section/34/enacted/en/html

No, S56 (3) (as amended) is correct. Scetion 34 of the 2004 Act was never commenced.

56 (4) is in relation to the person whom the certificate is demanded from, 56 (3) is in relation to the owner as per my post.

Pro Hoc Vice

GM228 wrote: »

But it can lead to an arrest when your in the jurisdiction it was issued in, the restriction is in relation to the jurisdiction the person is in, not the jurisdiction the summons was issued.

So for example if a bench warrant was issued to a UK resident for failure to show it could be executed if they return to Ireland. There's just no recourse whilst they stay outside the state, unless of course someone is convicted for a serious offence here in their absence and they receive a driving ban, that ban would then automatically apply to their UK licence in the UK under the Ireland-UK driving ban recognition agreement which to the best of my knowledge still carries legal status in the UK (but not currently here - it will again here in due course)





I'm not sure why you refer to the heading and conclude no summons will be served? I haven't had a chance to read properly the convention but is there a provision preventing it's use for minor convictions?

Because the other state can not take any action the summons is no good I do not even think a bench warrant can be issued as the person is not in the state.

Pro Hoc Vice

GM228 wrote: »

No, S56 (3) (as amended) is correct. Scetion 34 of the 2004 Act was never commenced.

56 (4) is in relation to the person whom the certificate is demanded from, 56 (3) is in relation to the owner as per my post.

(3) An approved policy of insurance referred to in subsection (1)(b) of this section extends to damages or costs on account of injury to persons or property incurred by the negligent use of a mechanically propelled vehicle by the user in any of the designated territories to the extent required by the law relating to compulsory insurance against civil liability in respect of the use of mechanically propelled vehicles of the territory where the damages or costs may be incurred, or to the extent required by this Part, whichever is the greater.

(4) Where a person contravenes subsection (1) of this section, he or she and, if he or she is not the owner of the vehicle, such owner are each guilty of an offence and are liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €3,000 or, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months, or to both.

It is not section 56 (3) as amended as (3) is now (4).

GM228

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

(3) An approved policy of insurance referred to in subsection (1)(b) of this section extends to damages or costs on account of injury to persons or property incurred by the negligent use of a mechanically propelled vehicle by the user in any of the designated territories to the extent required by the law relating to compulsory insurance against civil liability in respect of the use of mechanically propelled vehicles of the territory where the damages or costs may be incurred, or to the extent required by this Part, whichever is the greater.

(4) Where a person contravenes subsection (1) of this section, he or she and, if he or she is not the owner of the vehicle, such owner are each guilty of an offence and are liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €3,000 or, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months, or to both.

It is not section 56 (3) as amended as (3) is now (4).

I think you missed the part that the amendment never commenced, it's still 56 (3).

Infact 56 (3) was amended in 2007 to adjust the €3000 fine to €5000.

Pro Hoc Vice

GM228 wrote: »

I think you missed the part that the amendment never commenced, it's still 56 (3).

Infact 56 (3) was amended in 2007 to adjust the €3000 fine to €5000.

I stand corrected.

But in relation to summons

A summons may be served in any part of the State and upon service being effected in a manner prescribed by these Rules, the person against whom the complaint is made or the offence is alleged shall be as effectively bound by the proceedings as if he or she resided within the area of jurisdiction of the Judge issuing it or (if issued out of an appropriate office) within the limits of the court area or areas to which the appropriate Clerk whose name is specified on the summons has been assigned.

http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/0c609d7abff72c1c80256d2b0045bb64/d331d5a55f7ce5a080256d2b0046a05e?OpenDocument

GM228

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I stand corrected.

But in relation to summons

A summons may be served in any part of the State and upon service being effected in a manner prescribed by these Rules, the person against whom the complaint is made or the offence is alleged shall be as effectively bound by the proceedings as if he or she resided within the area of jurisdiction of the Judge issuing it or (if issued out of an appropriate office) within the limits of the court area or areas to which the appropriate Clerk whose name is specified on the summons has been assigned.

http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/0c609d7abff72c1c80256d2b0045bb64/d331d5a55f7ce5a080256d2b0046a05e?OpenDocument

But a summons can be served outside the state via a substitute service and also deemed good when served outside the prescribed manner as per the Courts Act 1968/1991, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't your link in relation to summons issued under the Petty Sessions Act which isn't appropriate for a motoring offence.

http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/pagescurrent/B03C9BEB70A87D6880256D2B0046A056?opendocument&l=en

Pro Hoc Vice

GM228 wrote: »

But a summons can be served outside the state via a substitute service and also deemed good when served outside the prescribed manner as per the Courts Act 1968/1991, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't your link is in relation to summons issued under the Petty Sessions Act which isn't appropriate for a motoring offence.

Petty sessions Act can and is used for motoring offences.

exaisle

thestar wrote: »

Friend stopped with no insurance here. He has an english license. What will likely happen?

A "friend" huh?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=99986446

Curious that you've been abroad recently too...

GM228

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Petty sessions Act can and is used for motoring offences.

Gardaí don't use the Petty Sessions Act for motoring offences any more, summons are issued under the Courts (No.3) Act 1986.

NUTLEY BOY

Just for clarity OP - is your friend sure that he has no valid insurance or is he assuming insurance is invalid because of UK licence only ?

cavan4sam

If it was a case of a uk driver getting panalty points via speed van and the registered owner nominated them at their uk address but they are non compliant or ignore the notice whats the scenario then ? Does it go back to the registered owner then ?

Sorry for going off topic but it was a discussion i had at the weekend

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

cavan4sam

Fred Swanson wrote:

Nope. Nothing happens so long as the person does not deny it.

Would half the country not nominate someone if that was the case ?
I was very sceptical of the person who reckoned it was the case ?