Social Classes and Classism

HellSquirrel

Nowadays, we don't really think of the stratified class structure as being a thing in the western world. It's a concept from history that died out when kings and queens were being forcibly removed from their thrones. In a republic, it's even harder to figure out the class structure as we don't really have much of an aristocracy to draw on in terms of big houses and "old money".


But, that was the past. Many people would claim that there is no such class system in place nowadays, or in Ireland, but it's interesting to look at how people talk about it. The only class one is allowed to refer to is "middle class", but you can easily read between the lines extrapolate the lines of upper and lower classes around them. Well, "working class" and the pithy "non-working class" also comes in there, the latter especially recalling periods of wealthy industrialists talking about the "deserving poor", with an unspoken emphasis on that there were many "undeserving poor", who did not deserve to be helped because they were a sublevel of society and wouldn't be properly grateful for it anyway.

So then, thinking about how AH talks, scanning through threads and reading newspapers (and even thinking about how certain newspapers are only "allowed" reading for certain self-defined subsects of society - g'wan, use the Sun as back up for a point you want to make and see how that goes!), what do people think on modern day social classes and how they are defined? It's all going to be a bit hard to heavily define as we try to avoid doing so, but the lines are there, if fuzzy. How does it affect your views on other people? If there's a tax cut or a social privilege being extended to a group of people that could be defined as a class (say, a E5 rise in social benefits), what is your immediate reaction and then what's your secondary reaction if you consider the class aspects to your thoughts?

Yeah, it's all a bit of a thought experiment, but maybe it'll throw up some interesting discussion.

The "classes" as I tend to see them defined and spoken about are roughly as follows;
- The Uber-Rich; wealthy industrialists or, just occassionally, Old Money. Don't hear much about or from them, unless you're inclined to read the papers talking about how baby Prince George has taken his first steps, or royally vomited on a visiting dignitary.
- The Upper Middle Class; Sometimes rather self-deprecatingly self-defined. Family wealthy, own their own home (or several), can send their children to private schools, go on holidays to exotic and untouristy places. Allowed Newspapers: The Guardian, The Times.
- Middle Class/educated working class(?); What we generally define ourselves as. The largest proportion of the country, or so you'd assume by reading the internet, and/or the oppressed hard-working fools that keep the country/world running with a steadily shrinking mass of workers while being sucked dry by the upper classes and being leeched off by the lower classes. You could put that sentence into just about any period in history with some language polishing :P Allowed Media: Sky, RTE, the internet.
Working class/Lower middle class; The deserving poor, as they might have called it in the industrial revolution and further back. Almost a badge of honour on the internet and spoken about with a certain pride, mostly as it implies that wherever the speaker is or whatever they're talking about, they've succeeded despite the odds (of being lower-middle class). Salt of the earth. Etcetera. Allowed Media: RTE.
"Non-working class"/Lower Class/scobies/scum of society/well I assume there are some good ones - Hard to define absolutely, and people tend to carefully imply that it's to do with behaviour rather than birth or opportunities, to leave room for not tarring the Lower Middle Class with the same brush. Generally manage to do it anyway. The general views are that they get out of school with no achievements and start having babies to get onto the social system, etc, etc, I'm sure everyone's read the diatribes. Allowed Media: The Sun, Daily Whatever.
Homeless/drug addicts/rough sleepers - Move 'em to Leitrim!* Allowed Media: Presumably none :P

I'd be interested in hearing other peoples thoughts on how the class system is presented and talked about today, even while it generally cautiously avoids the word "class". Bear in mind that, like the above, you don't have to absolutely AGREE with the representation of societal stratification in terms of stereotypes, but do you see those stereotypes presented?

Secondary question; which classes do you most automatically assign stereotypes to? Whichever one you assign least to is probably the one you subconsciously place yourself in :P


*This makes sense if you've been reading the Gis A House thread.

IMPORTANT NOTE; This is talking in STEREOTYPES, which are foolishly reductive and rarely, if ever, give a full picture, BUT they are the picture as presented by media and national discourse, particularly on the internet which thrives on reductive discussion. Please take this into account. Yes, it's uncomfortable to see them written down and it SHOULD be uncomfortable to see them written down. That's the topic.

The_Valeyard

Homer: Because sometimes the only way you can feel good about yourself is by making someone else look bad. And I'm tired of making other people feel good about themselves.

Holograph

Personally I don't think about class/socio-economic bracket, just behaviour (although I have probably made assumptions about someone but in general I try to keep an open mind). Sometimes criticism of someone being a "scumbag" is mistaken as being a go at their address, clothes, accent, lack of education, which is bizarre when it's perfectly clear that their criminal conviction(s) is what's being criticised.

I think that's the case for most people. You do have the cohort who ignore if a person grew up with addict parents neglecting them, thus a barrier being put up to them finding employment (and those same critics simultaneously saying the children of addicts don't have a chance) but I think that's more out of being simplistic rather than snobbish. And there are some folk who really do take the piss in the self entitlement stakes - again, criticism of their attitude is not snobbery.

I really dislike too this bandwagon of having a go at middle-class people - often it's from middle-class people themselves! I'm not saying life is hard for middle-class people - no, we are lucky to have got a good start in life, but we are not just our socio-economic background and we have to work hard too!

HellSquirrel

Course the so-called middle-classes have to work hard. Very rarely does anyone get an absolutely free ride through life. I'm talking mostly about and in stereotypes though, as that simplistic approach is generally what's seen in national discourse.

Pickpocket

You really ought to be ashamed of such reductive views of unemployment, the homeless and drug users.

You started out by essentially saying that class doesn't exist in this country, but I've a fair idea what kind of environment your grew up in.

HellSquirrel

Oh Christ, I'm going to have to edit my opening post to make this clearer.


Edit: Just to be clear:

IMPORTANT NOTE; This is talking in STEREOTYPES, which are foolishly reductive and rarely, if ever, give a full picture, BUT they are the picture as presented by media and national discourse, particularly on the internet which thrives on reductive discussion. Please take this into account. Yes, it's uncomfortable to see them written down and it SHOULD be uncomfortable to see them written down. That's the topic.

Holograph

Pickpocket wrote: »

You really ought to be ashamed of such reductive views of unemployment, the homeless and drug users.

You started out by essentially saying that class doesn't exist in this country, but I've a fair idea what kind of environment your grew up in.

Ah here. Normally I would not endorse stalking but if you check out this member's other posts you'll see their thinking could not be further from that which you're assuming!

Pickpocket

Holograph wrote: »

Ah here. Normally I would not endorse stalking but if you check out this member's other posts you'll see their thinking could not be further from that which you're assuming!

So should I first review the OPs post history before taking issue with his use of the word 'scum' or his suggestion that drug users don't/can't read?

Pickpocket

I misread the post, particularly your introduction to the various categories. I apologise.

HellSquirrel

Edited own argument :P : No worries, Pickpocket. I push against these easily-presented reductive stereotypes too, because I believe them harmful to a society. But at times I let my objective want-to-create-discussion/provoke questions and debate side ahead of the side that asks "yeah, but how will people read this?"

Your Face

Ah First year.

HellSquirrel

Your Face wrote: »

Ah First year.

Ah, adult conversation. :pac: Nope, I'm not in college, no, when I did, I wasn't studying politics, psychology or any of the other ster- ...hey, look, a stereotype!

Pickpocket

HellSquirrel wrote: »

Edited own argument :P : No worries, Pickpocket. I push against these easily-presented reductive stereotypes too, because I believe them harmful to a society. But at times I let my objective want-to-create-discussion/provoke questions and debate side ahead of the side that asks "yeah, but how will people read this?"

It's like a red flag to a bull with me. My whole life being called scum because of where I'm from. Nothing will ever change that. Not my work ethic, not my third-level education, not the good work I do within the community. I sound a certain way and I'm from a certain part of town and that has prevented me from securing simple loans, renting property, etc. On and on and on and it never ends. Chip on my shoudler? Absolutely. Anyway, that's all the time I have. I've got drugs to take, babies to make and my soaps to catch up on. I do love me auld telly.

Your Face

HellSquirrel wrote: »

Ah, adult conversation. :pac: Nope, I'm not in college, no, when I did, I wasn't studying politics, psychology or any of the other ...hey, look, a stereotype!

An adult conversation with smiley faces.
Haha.

HellSquirrel

Pickpocket wrote: »

It's like a red flag to a bull with me. My whole life being called scum because of where I'm from. Nothing will ever change that. Not my work ethic, not my third-level education, not the good work I do within the community. I sound a certain way and I'm from a certain part of town and that has prevented me from securing simple loans, renting property, etc. On and on and on and it never ends. Chip on my shoudler? Absolutely. Anyway, that's all the time I have. I've got drugs to take, babies to make and my soaps to catch up on. I do love me auld telly.

On a more personal level, I apologise if my comment above hit you. Please do be assured that I used the words I did to see if people would think about where they've seen and heard them, if they are glibly inserted into how people talk - and more importantly, affect how they think. There's nothing like constant repetition and reinforcement to gradually get an idea in under peoples skin, especially if there's -also- a strange taboo around debating the reasonableness of the whole thing.

Societies have an ancient urge to break themselves down into smaller and more manageable groupings of "people like me" and "other lots" who are, ofc, inferior in some way. You see it likewise in nationalism, religion, even PC vs Mac! But even if its inherent to us as people, it would seem sensible to be able to talk about it and acknowledge its existence to prevent that instinct from unfairly impacting everyone else.

And much like left-wing vs right-wing, there's been an upsurge in all this over the last few years, at least so it seems with the recession. People seem more inclined to hunker down and protect what's theirs or what they feel should be theirs.

Grayson

Pickpocket wrote: »

It's like a red flag to a bull with me. My whole life being called scum because of where I'm from..

Nothing to do with being a pickpocket?

darkpagandeath

I know Roight ?