Language of our ancestors

carolinej

hi all,
The past few weeks I've been looking up lots of records on Irishgenealogy. Something I was thinking about the other day was what did people speak on a daily basis - Irish or was it English.

Did it depend on the area you lived eg mainly Gaelic speaking on the Aran Islands whereas the cities it was English or you class.

When people went into register BMD especially in 1860's did they converse in English for official business even though they probably spoke Irish at home?

pinkypinky

The census of 1901 gives a good indicator of how many were bilingual and how many were speaking only Irish.

44383 speak only Irish.
589402 speak both.

The former figure, in my experience, is mostly spoken by older people in Gaeltacht areas.

I think by the time civil registration came in, we're effectively an English speaking country with a decent subset who speak Irish as well.

National School started in the 1830s - it's not 100% clear from brief internet searches, but I don't think they were learning Irish at school, which means that any generation after that stage would probably only be able to speak Irish but not read it.

dubhthach

English probably passed the 50% mark in the period 1790 to 1810. What's important to remember that even though the percentage of Irish speakers fell up to 1841 that as population underwent rapid growth that there were technically more Irish speakers in 1841 than there was in say 1780 (they just made up smaller percentage of whole population).

Linguistically in late 18th century Ireland would have looked like this:



As regard 1860 ish period, there is a famous enough map from 1870 showing extent of Irish language at the time, this is up on wikipedia



With regards to using English with officials, in early 19th century there's quite bit of accounts of fact that official translators were used, in post famine period this declined with the rise of bilingualism leading to removal of services in Irish. There was a book published in 2014 that goes into detail with regards to domain specific usage of Irish during the 19th century:

An Irish-Speaking Island: State, Religion, Community, and the Linguistic Landscape in Ireland, 1770-1870 (University of Wisconsin Press, 2014)

Review here:
http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/review-an-irish-speaking-island-by-nicholas-m-wolf-1.2255923

Article by the author here:
http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/when-irish-was-still-the-greatest-little-language-in-the-world-1.2082623

"University of Wisconsin Press" blurb here:
https://uwpress.wisc.edu/books/5334.htm

mickmackey1

Was it compulsory to use English when filling in the Register? Apparently not for the census, eg Patrick Pearse -

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Whitechurch/Haroldsgrange_/57855/

pinkypinky

No, the census could be completed in either language.

Lots of Gaeltacht areas are entirely in Irish.

carolinej

Interesting posts. From looking at the maps my ancesters would most likely have spoken Irish. I vaguely remember reading somewhere years ago that speaking Irish was seen as backward and wasn't encouraged. To speak English was progressive. It's a pity it died out.

I was looking at church records for a church in Ballygarret, Gorey in the 1840's and the priest filled in the register in English in a list. Quite easy to follow today. thanks Father :-)

dubhthach

It should be noted that the language area in 1901/1911 would have been larger than the Gaeltacht boundaries as defined by legislation in 1956. (these boundaries were controversial at time due to inclusion of areas that had undergone language shift or were in advance stage by the mid 1950's). The 1926 Gaeltacht report map gives a better idea of what situation was like in early 20th century. (specifically the regions marked "yellow")

carolinej

Most of my ancesters were from Co Waterford/South Kilkenny so interesting map from 1926. I looked at the census of 1901 and my great great grandparents said they could speak Irish & English and their eldest son aged 40 said the same. The rest of the family it was left blank. Maybe the enumerator forgot to fill it in or because the whole family were bilingual he didnt' bother..

dubhthach

carolinej wrote: »

Most of my ancesters were from Co Waterford/South Kilkenny so interesting map from 1926. I looked at the census of 1901 and my great great grandparents said they could speak Irish & English and their eldest son aged 40 said the same. The rest of the family it was left blank. Maybe the enumerator forgot to fill it in or because the whole family were bilingual he didnt' bother..

Well I believe the last speaker of Leinster Irish in Kilkenny died during the 1947. If you look at following map (I know another one) you can see that certain level of bilingualism persisted in Kilkenny right up after famine. Garrett Fitzgearld (the late Taoiseach) based this map off the 1911 census and those aged over 60 -- so as to get an idea of what situation was like in period 1841-1851.



The Déise Gaeltacht extended over the border into South Tippeary, the last native speakers in Tipp also died during mid 20th century (1930-1950), their dialect of Munster Irish been basically equivalent to wider Déise sub-dialect (as spoken today in An Rinn)

With regards to census results it's quite possible that they didn't transmit language to other members of family. In 1901/1911 census my Great-Great-Grandfather who was born in late 1820's is down as been able to speak Irish and English. His son born in the 1860's (my great-grandfather) is down solely as an English speaker. Basically language transmission was broken at that point in the genealogy.

pedroeibar1

carolinej wrote: »

Interesting posts. From looking at the maps my ancesters would most likely have spoken Irish. I vaguely remember reading somewhere years ago that speaking Irish was seen as backward and wasn't encouraged. To speak English was progressive. It's a pity it died out.

I was looking at church records for a church in Ballygarret, Gorey in the 1840's and the priest filled in the register in English in a list. Quite easy to follow today. thanks Father :-)

I would be more pessimistic than Dubhthach.

Statistically it is unlikely that few young people in Wexford during the mid-1800’s used Irish as a first language. In Tipperary (more rural) by that date Irish-speaking was largely confined to small pockets in the wilder parts of the Galtee mountains. As for Church records, it would have been far more likely (anywhere) that the priest used Latin, next English and very unlikely to use Irish outside of the fringe Gaelteacht areas.

As for Irish in daily use, education was through English, but regular schooling was a non- event for almost all children, everywhere. When it 'happened' it was paid for by subject, inevitably just the “3 R’s” . Levels of illiteracy were very high – an ability to speak English was the key to a job, hence the emphasis by Daniel O’Connell and others on learning it. When pupils mastered the 3Rs they just MIGHT be allowed take on another subject, usually accounting ('casting accounts') and paid extra for that subject.

A formal education was unknown for the vast mass of society - it carried a double burden for a family – loss of income (cash or benefit) from the child’s work and outgoing payment to the teacher. That is why until the end of the nineteenth century there was very poor attendance (a figure of about 100 days a year on average is stuck in my mind) since there was no law mandating student presence. This brought about the Irish Education Act of 1892 making education free and cumpulsory for students between the ages of six and fourteen.

Outside of Connemara, West Kerry, etc. I would seriously question and have doubt over Census form claims of people being bilingual Irish/English. In self-assessment people are much more likely to exaggerate language skills and literacy. By the era of 1901 and 1911 Census returns, there was considerable growth in ‘Nationalism’ and in the ‘Celtic Revival’ so many would claim to speak Irish even if their level was very basic. (Na “Lá breá!” mar a deirtear!) Anybody who has interviewed a job candidate and tested their claimed bilingual claims in French/Spanish/whatever will bear that out!!)

Like in Dubhthach's family , in the 1800's the speaking of Irish in my paternal line (Tipperary) AFAIK was confined to just one native speaker (bilingual), my 3rd great grandmother, born about 1800. It took until those born 189o's, and secondary education by the Christian Brothers for the Irish language to come back into the family.

Cormac Ó Gráda did a paper on the use of Irish and literacy in the pre-Famine era and used Garrett Fitz’s work. It should turn up on a google search...

Waitsian

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Cormac Ó Gráda did a paper on the use of Irish and literacy in the pre-Famine era and used Garrett Fitz’s work. It should turn up on a google search...

http://irserver.ucd.ie/bitstream/handle/10197/2647/wp10_22.pdf?sequence=1

Earnest

carolinej wrote: »

hi all,
The past few weeks I've been looking up lots of records on Irishgenealogy. Something I was thinking about the other day was what did people speak on a daily basis - Irish or was it English.

Did it depend on the area you lived eg mainly Gaelic speaking on the Aran Islands whereas the cities it was English or you class.

When people went into register BMD especially in 1860's did they converse in English for official business even though they probably spoke Irish at home?

It seems very likely to me that they would have used English for official business, and if they didn't have English then the official, if bilingual, would have translated into English. In the 1960s I had reason to look at the electoral register for a Gaeltacht area in Co. Galway, and the names were all in English. And that was the best we could do with official encouragement!

dubhthach

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I would be more pessimistic than Dubhthach.

Statistically it is unlikely that few young people in Wexford during the mid-1800’s used Irish as a first language. In Tipperary (more rural) by that date Irish-speaking was largely confined to small pockets in the wilder parts of the Galtee mountains. As for Church records, it would have been far more likely (anywhere) that the priest used Latin, next English and very unlikely to use Irish outside of the fringe Gaelteacht areas.

As for Irish in daily use, education was through English, but regular schooling was a non- event for almost all children, everywhere. When it 'happened' it was paid for by subject, inevitably just the “3 R’s” . Levels of illiteracy were very high – an ability to speak English was the key to a job, hence the emphasis by Daniel O’Connell and others on learning it. When pupils mastered the 3Rs they just MIGHT be allowed take on another subject, usually accounting ('casting accounts') and paid extra for that subject.

A formal education was unknown for the vast mass of society - it carried a double burden for a family – loss of income (cash or benefit) from the child’s work and outgoing payment to the teacher. That is why until the end of the nineteenth century there was very poor attendance (a figure of about 100 days a year on average is stuck in my mind) since there was no law mandating student presence. This brought about the Irish Education Act of 1892 making education free and cumpulsory for students between the ages of six and fourteen.

Outside of Connemara, West Kerry, etc. I would seriously question and have doubt over Census form claims of people being bilingual Irish/English. In self-assessment people are much more likely to exaggerate language skills and literacy. By the era of 1901 and 1911 Census returns, there was considerable growth in ‘Nationalism’ and in the ‘Celtic Revival’ so many would claim to speak Irish even if their level was very basic. (Na “Lá breá!” mar a deirtear!) Anybody who has interviewed a job candidate and tested their claimed bilingual claims in French/Spanish/whatever will bear that out!!)

Like in Dubhthach's family , in the 1800's the speaking of Irish in my paternal line (Tipperary) AFAIK was confined to just one native speaker (bilingual), my 3rd great grandmother, born about 1800. It took until those born 189o's, and secondary education by the Christian Brothers for the Irish language to come back into the family.

Cormac Ó Gráda did a paper on the use of Irish and literacy in the pre-Famine era and used Garrett Fitz’s work. It should turn up on a google search...

I'm in agreement with regards Tipperary, and this can be seen in late 19th century where baronies with residual Irish speaking are generally bordering on remaining Déise Gaeltacht



The various studies etc in the early-mid 20th century showed Irish restricted to older generation, who were generally more fluent in English than Irish at that stage.

Interesting piece here:
http://www.drb.ie/essays/news-from-the-glen

It is interesting that a century before independence that the authorities spent nearly £56 in Tipperary in 1818 on translators for the election that was held that year (Wolf 2014)

Returns nevertheless reveal considerable expenses for interpreting, and in seemingly unlikely places. An interpreter was employed in the Queen's County election in 1818, as has already been noted, and several in the county election for Tipperary at a cost of £55 14s. 9d. This sum was identical to the expenses paid for the fourteen interpreters employed in Limerick for seven day's worth of translation in 1818.

One thing I would say is Fitzgerald's map generally matches quite well the 1851 census data based on barony usage, that and he restricted his analysis to over 60's who ye imagine might be least inclined to be part of language revival movement. As the 1851 records were destroyed during the Civil War unfortunately we'll never be able to map them on a more fine scale level (Electoral district). This is unfortunate as on barony level certain pockets of Irish speaking that survived into mid 20th century don't show up (Sperrin Mountains in Tyrone/Derry -- Glens of Antrim)



As for Wexford, well we know from various written records that Irish survived into at least the early 19th century in Wexford, accounts from 1798 etc, there's also fact that relevant legal authorities had to hire Irish translators for use by Grand Juries in the county (see Wolf 2014)

---
Page 156 (talking about cost of grand jury translators in 1807)

Among those making presentments for costs were predominantly English-speaking counties like Fermanagh, Westmeath, Wexford and Wicklow, whose courts nonetheless found it necessary to supply an individual to translate despite lower percentages of resident Irish speakers. (47)

Note 47

47. (Ireland) Accounts, Presented to the House of Commons, of the Presentments Passed by the Grand Juries of Ireland, at the Spring and Summer Assizes, in the Year 1807, pp. 3-447, H.C. 1808 (205), xiii. Counties reporting employment of interpreters in 1807 were Cavan, Clare, Cork, Donegal, Fermanagh, Kilkenny, Mayo, Meath, Roscommon, Tipperary, Tyrone, Waterford, Westmeath, Wexford, and Wicklow.

---

so at least 10 years after 1798 there was still somewhat of residual level of Irish spoken in parts of Wexford. I imagine though that language transmission probably broke down fully in the proceeding period and that by mid century that last Irish speakers died out in Wexford.

In same book of course we see following about translators in Waterford/Kilkenny in the 1830's

In 1830 the Clare grand jury registered £4 12s. 3d. in expenses for an unnamed interpreter employed at the spring assizes and again for the summer assizes, while the Waterford grand jury labeled the £5 in interpreting expenses at each of its assizes “imperative” under the terms of 4 Geo.IV c.43. (52) In the town of Kilkenny, an outlay of £4 12s. 4d. was record for the 1832 spring assizes…

What we seem to see time and time again is in the post Act of Union/pre-Famine stage that the state (UK of Great Britain and Ireland) used/provide translators/services in Irish even in areas that were heavily Anglicized (Fermanagh/Wexford/Wicklow)

In the post-Famine period due to both massive decline in population in Irish speaking areas and increased bilingualism we see rollback of such services, with gradual disappearance by the late 19th century onwards. Not really surprising as most linguists will tell you that increased bilingualism is first step to monolingualism when there is clear differentiation in societal position of one language versus another (a trend we see today in modern Gaeltacht given prestige of English in the state)

Waitsian

I want to thank the OP for raising this question because I've always wondered about the language my ancestors spoke, in Armagh/Louth, Cavan/Monaghan and North Kerry/ South Clare. This whole thread is fascinating and certainly adds greatly to my knowledge of my family's past.