Hideo Kojima; What Happened!?

Fox Hound

So I have Decided to create this Thread to see if anybody can come up with a conclusion of why the last Metal Gear game was left unfinished??

I have cleared the game and loved it...But I also hated it!......I loved the graphics, the game play, the intelligence of how the game felt, building an army, driving Vehicles. However what I hated was the fact that the game felt unfinished, Rushed and the none excitement story line. the first part of the game played very well, but I can help feel that we will never to see what happened to big boss.....we will never get to see big boss train solid snake....does any body else feel the same ? please discuss

johnny_ultimate

Konami happened.

johnny_ultimate

I should also point out that, in addition to the Konami shenanigans, Kojima has long been an incompetent storyteller, unable to do his often intriguing ideas justice without reams of exposition and obfuscation. Metal Gear was long ago consumed by its labyrinthine lore, and Kojima's insistence on going back to plug every possible gap despite that fact that made an already barely comprehensible chronology even more confounding. MGSV was a victim of this.

It's all a shame, because when he wants to he can do a good job. Shining Lights, Even in Death was a highlight of the franchise for its assured marriage of theme and mechanics, as well as being brave enough to actively punish the player for narrative reasons. Shame it was surrounded by so much padding.

Fox Hound

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Konami happened.

I understand they just wanted to get it out on the shelves and get the cash back as quick as possible....why where they being dicks!!! surely they are all gaming people in Konami and could see this game was going to be a master piece!!!! instead the shut up shop and release an unfinished game just so they can cash in??

gizmo

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Konami happened.

To be fair, it should be acknowledged that despite Konami's blatant ****ery on the project, the game was still in development for at least 4 years with development of the FOX engine beginning well before that.

Granted, I've not played any part of MGS V yet but if there are deficiencies when it comes to the story or characters, I can't help but feel Kojima should be held partially responsible as Game Director. By the guys own admission he often needs to be reigned in in order to actually complete projects so one wonders how much had that to play in light of the finished product and subsequent ugly divorce from Konami.

Fox Hound

gizmo wrote: »

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Konami happened.

To be fair, it should be acknowledged that despite Konami's blatant ****ery on the project, the game was still in development for at least 4 years with development of the FOX engine beginning well before that.

Granted, I've not played any part of MGS V yet but if there are deficiencies when it comes to the story or characters, I can't help but feel Kojima should be held partially responsible as Game Director. By the guys own admission he often needs to be reigned in in order to actually complete projects so one wonders how much had that to play in light of the finished product and subsequent ugly divorce from Konami.

The Story in this new game is very short......Big Boss barely speaks and it is up to miller and Ocelot to fill the silence....The only reason I thought bringing in Sutherland to be big boss was because snake would turn up to be trained at some point and that would have been a perfect chance to have David Hayter back in the mix!!!....but it never happened! I was gutted.. this game left so much more unanswered questions.....

K.O.Kiki

Gregorym2 wrote: »

I understand they just wanted to get it out on the shelves and get the cash back as quick as possible....why where they being dicks!!! surely they are all gaming people in Konami and could see this game was going to be a master piece!!!! instead the shut up shop and release an unfinished game just so they can cash in??

Konami ceased being "gaming people" a long time ago.

If you want more heartbreak, look up the trailer for Metal Gear Survive.

SeantheMan

Nobody knows except Hideo and Kojima.
I doubt we'll ever find out the real truth unless he releases some autobiography or something.

johnny_ultimate

gizmo wrote: »

To be fair, it should be acknowledged that despite Konami's blatant ****ery on the project, the game was still in development for at least 4 years with development of the FOX engine beginning well before that.

Granted, I've not played any part of MGS V yet but if there are deficiencies when it comes to the story or characters, I can't help but feel Kojima should be held partially responsible as Game Director. By the guys own admission he often needs to be reigned in in order to actually complete projects so one wonders how much had that to play in light of the finished product and subsequent ugly divorce from Konami.

Indeed, and have acknowledged his own failings in my slightly less glib follow up. As a storyteller he's his own worst enemy

Fox Hound

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Gregorym2 wrote: »

I understand they just wanted to get it out on the shelves and get the cash back as quick as possible....why where they being dicks!!! surely they are all gaming people in Konami and could see this game was going to be a master piece!!!! instead the shut up shop and release an unfinished game just so they can cash in??

Konami ceased being "gaming people" a long time ago.

If you want more heartbreak, look up the trailer for Metal Gear Survive.

This makes me sad :-(......I think games now a days need people that will tell a story rather than rely on graphics and running around blowing up things!!
Games are going in the wrong direction if they listen to publishers like Konami.....for me Metal Gear was the last game that had a crazy long story, I could sit back and watch a cut scene and have a mug of tea at the same time!!

Penn

Gregorym2 wrote: »

The Story in this new game is very short......Big Boss barely speaks and it is up to miller and Ocelot to fill the silence....The only reason I thought bringing in Sutherland to be big boss was because snake would turn up to be trained at some point and that would have been a perfect chance to have David Hayter back in the mix!!!....but it never happened! I was gutted.. this game left so much more unanswered questions.....

More time wouldn't have helped the main story. It may have fleshed out more relating to the other characters, but overall, the story of Big Boss in the game is what the story was supposed to be.

It comes back to what Kojima did with having you play as Raiden in MGS2 to separate yourself from Snake and how you can't live up to the legend of Snake. Likewise, having you not play as Big Boss but instead as his "phantom" is about how we, all the people who have played the MGS games, have built up the legacy of Big Boss together. Big Boss isn't just Big Boss, it's the actions of the player who have helped create the notion of Big Boss.

The ending was always going to be the ending. We never would have gotten Solid Snake (think I read Kojima went with Sutherland because he'd been trying to get rid of Hayter for years, plus with facial capture & performance and how little BB speaks, he wanted a better actor with more nuance to play Big Boss).

I enjoyed the game a lot for what it was, and it does annoy me how stuff was clearly cut out of the game, yet the remnants of them are still there. But yeah, Kojima would have spent another two years on it if he could have, constantly adding small things regardless of how well they blend with the rest of the gameplay. Maybe Konami could have given him a bit more time to close off a few things on the story side of things, but in terms of gameplay, the game was fantastic and likely wouldn't have improved enough to warrant spending another 6 months on it.

EagererBeaver

Gregorym2 wrote: »

I understand they just wanted to get it out on the shelves and get the cash back as quick as possible....why where they being dicks!!! surely they are all gaming people in Konami and could see this game was going to be a master piece!!!! instead the shut up shop and release an unfinished game just so they can cash in??

This is naivety in the extreme. They are a business.

Sieghardt

Konami were in a hurry to get out of the business of developing games to put all their money into pachinko, a terrible business decision that has destroyed the company and left them with no hope for the future

gizmo

Sieghardt wrote: »

Konami were in a hurry to get out of the business of developing games to put all their money into pachinko, a terrible business decision that has destroyed the company and left them with no hope for the future

That analysis matches neither their actual plans nor financials though. The move to mobile has been extremely profitable for them and they've not ceased game production completely even outside of that, they're still producing the Pro Evo series as well as some other Japanese-centric IP.

Profits up at Konami as lifetime Metal Gear sales hit 49.2 million

Note, that headline is a bit misleading as, per the article, those profits were driven by mobile and other console sales in their digital entertainment wing.

Fox Hound

Penn wrote: »

Gregorym2 wrote: »

The Story in this new game is very short......Big Boss barely speaks and it is up to miller and Ocelot to fill the silence....The only reason I thought bringing in Sutherland to be big boss was because snake would turn up to be trained at some point and that would have been a perfect chance to have David Hayter back in the mix!!!....but it never happened! I was gutted.. this game left so much more unanswered questions.....

More time wouldn't have helped the main story. It may have fleshed out more relating to the other characters, but overall, the story of Big Boss in the game is what the story was supposed to be.

It comes back to what Kojima did with having you play as Raiden in MGS2 to separate yourself from Snake and how you can't live up to the legend of Snake. Likewise, having you not play as Big Boss but instead as his "phantom" is about how we, all the people who have played the MGS games, have built up the legacy of Big Boss together. Big Boss isn't just Big Boss, it's the actions of the player who have helped create the notion of Big Boss.

The ending was always going to be the ending. We never would have gotten Solid Snake (think I read Kojima went with Sutherland because he'd been trying to get rid of Hayter for years, plus with facial capture & performance and how little BB speaks, he wanted a better actor with more nuance to play Big Boss).

I enjoyed the game a lot for what it was, and it does annoy me how stuff was clearly cut out of the game, yet the remnants of them are still there. But yeah, Kojima would have spent another two years on it if he could have, constantly adding small things regardless of how well they blend with the rest of the gameplay. Maybe Konami could have given him a bit more time to close off a few things on the story side of things, but in terms of gameplay, the game was fantastic and likely wouldn't have improved enough to warrant spending another 6 months on it.

You make a great point!!! the game play was perfect and i suppose in that sense the game was ready to be played!!! but what happens now?
will we get remakes of the first two metal gear games?

Penn

Gregorym2 wrote: »

You make a great point!!! the game play was perfect and i suppose in that sense the game was ready to be played!!! but what happens now?
will we get remakes of the first two metal gear games?

Doubtful I reckon. If Konami do keep making games using the Fox Engine and MGS Franchise, it'll be something they can have multiplayer and microtransactions in.

Retr0gamer

gizmo wrote: »

That analysis matches neither their actual plans nor financials though. The move to mobile has been extremely profitable for them and they've not ceased game production completely even outside of that, they're still producing the Pro Evo series as well as some other Japanese-centric IP.

Profits up at Konami as lifetime Metal Gear sales hit 49.2 million

Note, that headline is a bit misleading as, per the article, those profits were driven by mobile and other console sales in their digital entertainment wing.

Konami also aren't really about videogames either. A lot of those profits are from non-videogame related business such as the sport clubs that are Konami own. Videogames was such a small piece of Konami that they dumped it.

kunst nugget

I was playing MGS4 until I gave up in Act 4 at the Vamp boss fight. I'd say about a third of the game time was me actually playing the game and the rest was listening to absolute bollix being spouted by the characters. The couple of hours of gameplay that I managed to get was enjoyable enough but it wasn't worth the rest of it. I hate leaving a game that I've played that much unfinished but I don't know if I'll be able to face any more of those interminable cut-scenes. I had enjoyed 1-3 and I do have 5 waiting to play but 4 has put me off playing any of them ever again…

Fox Hound

kunst nugget wrote: »

I was playing MGS4 until I gave up in Act 4 at the Vamp boss fight. I'd say about a third of the game time was me actually playing the game and the rest was listening to absolute bollix being spouted by the characters. The couple of hours of gameplay that I managed to get was enjoyable enough but it wasn't worth the rest of it. I hate leaving a game that I've played that much unfinished but I don't know if I'll be able to face any more of those interminable cut-scenes. I had enjoyed 1-3 and I do have 5 waiting to play but 4 has put me off playing any of them ever again

Im pretty sure you will love MGV then....it is a completely different beast!!.....I think there is two types of metal gear fans...the ones that love the dragged out cut scenes (which would be me) and the people that cant stand it....but MG4 was an amazing game and I defo recommend for you to finish it!!...plus you can always skip them.

Beefy78

Yeah I'd be with you Greg. Metal Gear Solid V is all gameplay. So I struggle to get on with it. For me the Metal Gear Solid has always been about the preposterous, overlong cut-scenes and babbling dialogue.

B.A._Baracus

I too would agree with you Gregorym2.
MGSV has the best graphics and has the best gameplay. But there is next to no story and Metal Gear games always have a big story with plot-twists. Don't know how Kojima made that decision. The marketing for the game was all about revenge and this is how Big Boss turns evil... but of course

It never shows you big boss turning evil and then at the very end it's revealed it wasn't Big Boss at all.

I doubt we'll ever be officially told what happened between Kojima and Konami but others (such as series composer Rika Muranaka) have said Kojima was spending too much money developing the game and took too long. He was being a perfectionist. But Konami is all about the business and they wanted to release the game.
So it's a clear case of Konami telling Kojima the game is coming out XXX (September 2015 as we know now) and telling him to polish up the current build.

Sieghardt

gizmo wrote: »

That analysis matches neither their actual plans nor financials though. The move to mobile has been extremely profitable for them and they've not ceased game production completely even outside of that, they're still producing the Pro Evo series as well as some other Japanese-centric IP.

Profits up at Konami as lifetime Metal Gear sales hit 49.2 million

Note, that headline is a bit misleading as, per the article, those profits were driven by mobile and other console sales in their digital entertainment wing.

They are making big profits because they had a big selling release but no longer have the cost of ongoing development. New games of that calibre arent going to appear out of thin air

gizmo

Sieghardt wrote: »

They are making big profits because they had a big selling release but no longer have the cost of ongoing development. New games of that calibre arent going to appear out of thin air

Are you referring to MGS V here? The reason I added that caveat at the bottom was because the headline was misleading in the sense it insinuated MGS was responsible for those profits. On the contrary...

Profits for the segment amounted to 8.66 billion yen ($84.6 million), and were largely driven by the stable performances of mobile and console titles including Star Wars: Force Collection, PES Club Manager, Jikkyou Pawafuru Puroyakyu, and PES Euro 2016.

The lions share of MGS V sales would have been included in previous financials, not the Q1 2017 ones that are being reported here. Dualshockers also have an interesting break down of the report as well as some slides from, I assume, the relevant call. Most notable are their thought son VR as well as the titles which will factor into their Q2 financials.

Fox Hound

Beefy78 wrote: »

Yeah I'd be with you Greg. Metal Gear Solid V is all gameplay. So I struggle to get on with it. For me the Metal Gear Solid has always been about the preposterous, overlong cut-scenes and babbling dialogue.

I really do enjoy the cuts scenes...and my brain was in over drive when i heard about this game.....I was full sure this game was gonna have 3 parts...first part would be big boss trying to do the right thing, then end up in a coma 9 years past, he wakes up and slowly starts his decent into evil....then the 3 rd part would be maybe another couple of years pass so we get to see teenage solid snake!!!....and then the game would end with boos sending him on his first mission......thats what I thought we would get

Fox Hound

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I too would agree with you Gregorym2.
MGSV has the best graphics and has the best gameplay. But there is next to no story and Metal Gear games always have a big story with plot-twists. Don't know how Kojima made that decision. The marketing for the game was all about revenge and this is how Big Boss turns evil... but of course

It never shows you big boss turning evil and then at the very end it's revealed it wasn't Big Boss at all.

I doubt we'll ever be officially told what happened between Kojima and Konami but others (such as series composer Rika Muranaka) have said Kojima was spending too much money developing the game and took too long. He was being a perfectionist. But Konami is all about the business and they wanted to release the game.
So it's a clear case of Konami telling Kojima the game is coming out XXX (September 2015 as we know now) and telling him to polish up the current build.

It was devastating...its like Konami left out the story on purpose....maybe this gives him time to come back in five years for a big money reunion and a story that he has secretly been working on from now on till then!!!

Sieghardt

gizmo wrote: »

Are you referring to MGS V here? The reason I added that caveat at the bottom was because the headline was misleading in the sense it insinuated MGS was responsible for those profits. On the contrary...

I'm referring to the fact they no longer have to pay the hundreds of staff that were working on it. That's a short term gain because you dont have the expenses so they're getting higher profit from lower revenue.

We already went through this exact same pattern with Sega and SNK over the last few years

K.O.Kiki

Gregorym2 wrote: »

It was devastating...its like Konami left out the story on purpose....maybe this gives him time to come back in five years for a big money reunion and a story that he has secretly been working on from now on till then!!!

I wish I could be as optimistic as you.

Retr0gamer

Gregorym2 wrote: »

Im pretty sure you will love MGV then....it is a completely different beast!!.....I think there is two types of metal gear fans...the ones that love the dragged out cut scenes (which would be me) and the people that cant stand it....but MG4 was an amazing game and I defo recommend for you to finish it!!...plus you can always skip them.

I suggest not returning to MGS4. The cutscenes get longer and the actual gameplay after the 3 chapter gets even worse. It's all capped off with what has to be the worst boss fight in all of Konami's history and an embarrassingly cringe ending.

K.O.Kiki

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I suggest not returning to MGS4. The cutscenes get longer and the actual gameplay after the 3 chapter gets even worse. It's all capped off with what has to be the worst boss fight in all of Konami's history and an embarrassingly cringe ending.

You would deny this man Chapter 4?? :eek:

gizmo

Sieghardt wrote: »

I'm referring to the fact they no longer have to pay the hundreds of staff that were working on it. That's a short term gain because you dont have the expenses so they're getting higher profit from lower revenue.

We already went through this exact same pattern with Sega and SNK over the last few years

Oh for sure, but we're talking marginally lower revenue based on the financials reported. Their mobile and other console endeavors have shown, for better or for worse, they can still make a profit without the costly aspect of other AAA development. What I'm getting at is, while I don't particularly like the direction they've gone in, the idea that they've destroyed the company and left themselves with no hope for the future is more than a little off base.

Penn

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

You would deny this man Chapter 4?? :eek:

Plus there are those who feel the final boss fight is one of the best boss fights for those who have played each of the previous games and loved the story. The final boss fight is pure fan service through and through and is absolutely nothing special in terms of gameplay. But a lot of people think it's really great.

Fox Hound

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Gregorym2 wrote: »

It was devastating...its like Konami left out the story on purpose....maybe this gives him time to come back in five years for a big money reunion and a story that he has secretly been working on from now on till then!!!

I wish I could be as optimistic as you.

If the money was right he would do it!!,,,,G'n R got back together and slash said that would never happen!

Retr0gamer

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

You would deny this man Chapter 4?? :eek:

Chapter 4 was blantant fan pandering and handled really poorly IMO, and the boss fight was another mechanics disaster. I found it one of the least fun with the enemies replaced with robots that just were not fun to play against.

Penn wrote: »

But a lot of people think it's really great.

A lot of people like One Direction :cool:

Penn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

A lot of people like One Direction :cool:

A lot of people like AC/DC too.

Wait a minute... do you think it's possible people have different opinions about things? I mean... no... could they...?

Fox Hound

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Chapter 4 was blantant fan pandering and handled really poorly IMO, and the boss fight was another mechanics disaster. I found it one of the least fun with the enemies replaced with robots that just were not fun to play against.



A lot of people like One Direction :cool:

You actually make a good point about the robots, they where very frustrating, But the wolf battle was very good, and pretty nerve wreaking at times......There is always one boss in every metal gear game that I tottaly dread to play against...Metal Gear 1 it was Mantis, Metal Gear 2 it was Vamp, Metal Gear 3 it was the fear, Meat Gear 4 it was the Crying wolf!!!..... However even tho it was cool going back to shadow moses, it defo could have been bigger and longer with more things to do!

Retr0gamer

For me the last boss fight and the whole of chapter 4 was just fan service without any actual substance. There was no real purpose to those other than to appeal to fanboys in the laziest way possible.

The Crying Wolf boss fight was the best in the entire game but I still thought it was very poor in comparison to what the series and Konami in general usually offer. Adding in constantly respawning enemies is just poor design to make up for the total lack of challenge and interest the boss fight would otherwise have presented.

Retr0gamer

Penn wrote: »

A lot of people like AC/DC too.

Wait a minute... do you think it's possible people have different opinions about things? I mean... no... could they...?

I was trying to be humourous but you pretty much summed up why I hated it in your post. It was fan service without substance. It dumps you into a lazy QTE boss fight that is severely lacking in any gameplay.

Compare that to MGS1 with the final boss fight rush having Snake utilise most of the gadgets and tricks he learned through the entire game.

Then there's the Boss in MGS3, a brilliant marriage of gameplay and story. Everything Snake has learned about CQC and stealth has to be utilised to bring her down signifying Snake finally surpassing her abilities in everything she has thought him to that point.

Even MGS2 which committed the cardinal sin of changing the gameplay right at the end still somehow managed to work with a great fight that played like something out of a classic Konami game. So much fun.

MGS4: two old men slapping each other in slow motion while the music from different games plays.

Fox Hound

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Penn wrote: »

A lot of people like AC/DC too.

Wait a minute... do you think it's possible people have different opinions about things? I mean... no... could they...?

I was trying to be humourous but you pretty much summed up why I hated it in your post. It was fan service without substance. It dumps you into a lazy QTE boss fight that is severely lacking in any gameplay.

Compare that to MGS1 with the final boss fight rush having Snake utilise most of the gadgets and tricks he learned through the entire game.

Then there's the Boss in MGS3, a brilliant marriage of gameplay and story. Everything Snake has learned about CQC and stealth has to be utilised to bring her down signifying Snake finally surpassing her abilities in everything she has thought him to that point.

Even MGS2 which committed the cardinal sin of changing the gameplay right at the end still somehow managed to work with a great fight that played like something out of a classic Konami game. So much fun.

MGS4: two old men slapping each other in slow motion while the music from different games plays.

damn I love these games so much, but my god your arguments are killing me here hahaah....I have nothing!!

Penn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I was trying to be humourous but you pretty much summed up why I hated it in your post. It was fan service without substance. It dumps you into a lazy QTE boss fight that is severely lacking in any gameplay.

Compare that to MGS1 with the final boss fight rush having Snake utilise most of the gadgets and tricks he learned through the entire game.

How? You fight Rex, then you fist fight Liquid with no gadgets/tricks (as you do for the first part of the fight against Ocelot in MGS4), then it's on the rails just shooting for about 3 minutes, again no gadgets and I don't even remember if you can change weapons.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Then there's the Boss in MGS3, a brilliant marriage of gameplay and story. Everything Snake has learned about CQC and stealth has to be utilised to bring her down signifying Snake finally surpassing her abilities in everything she has thought him to that point.

Completely agree. It was the perfect boss fight for that game.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Even MGS2 which committed the cardinal sin of changing the gameplay right at the end still somehow managed to work with a great fight that played like something out of a classic Konami game. So much fun.

Again, I agree. The controls sucked for it, but it was a pretty good end fight for the game.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

MGS4: two old men slapping each other in slow motion while the music from different games plays.

But this is the point, it's not about gameplay. Gameplay is all but abandoned at this point, and I don't disagree that that may not be to some people's taste. It's about the end. It's about the culmination to the story as a whole; the end of Snake V Liquid, the end of Snake's journey. It is unashamedly fan service from the music to the health meters to Ocelot's fighting style changing.

And I enjoyed the cinematic nature of it. The build up to the fight and the aftermath.

Was it the best possible ending/boss fight? Probably not. But I and others enjoyed the hell out of it for what it was, not what it wasn't.

Fox Hound

Penn wrote: »

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I was trying to be humourous but you pretty much summed up why I hated it in your post. It was fan service without substance. It dumps you into a lazy QTE boss fight that is severely lacking in any gameplay.

Compare that to MGS1 with the final boss fight rush having Snake utilise most of the gadgets and tricks he learned through the entire game.

How? You fight Rex, then you fist fight Liquid with no gadgets/tricks (as you do for the first part of the fight against Ocelot in MGS4), then it's on the rails just shooting for about 3 minutes, again no gadgets and I don't even remember if you can change weapons.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Then there's the Boss in MGS3, a brilliant marriage of gameplay and story. Everything Snake has learned about CQC and stealth has to be utilised to bring her down signifying Snake finally surpassing her abilities in everything she has thought him to that point.

Completely agree. It was the perfect boss fight for that game.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Even MGS2 which committed the cardinal sin of changing the gameplay right at the end still somehow managed to work with a great fight that played like something out of a classic Konami game. So much fun.

Again, I agree. The controls sucked for it, but it was a pretty good end fight for the game.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

MGS4: two old men slapping each other in slow motion while the music from different games plays.

But this is the point, it's not about gameplay. Gameplay is all but abandoned at this point, and I don't disagree that that may not be to some people's taste. It's about the end. It's about the culmination to the story as a whole; the end of Snake V Liquid, the end of Snake's journey. It is unashamedly fan service from the music to the health meters to Ocelot's fighting style changing.

And I enjoyed the cinematic nature of it. The build up to the fight and the aftermath.

Was it the best possible ending/boss fight? Probably not. But I and others enjoyed the hell out of it for what it was, not what it wasn't.

god Im so happy I started this thread!!! will any of you guys be playing Kojima's new stuff?

Retr0gamer

Penn wrote: »

How? You fight Rex, then you fist fight Liquid with no gadgets/tricks (as you do for the first part of the fight against Ocelot in MGS4), then it's on the rails just shooting for about 3 minutes, again no gadgets and I don't even remember if you can change weapons.

Well you could use a lot of your gadgets in fun ways for the rex fight, while the liquid fight was a janky one on one fight but at least it was fun and had some mechanical depth.

Penn wrote: »

But this is the point, it's not about gameplay. Gameplay is all but abandoned at this point, and I don't disagree that that may not be to some people's taste. It's about the end. It's about the culmination to the story as a whole; the end of Snake V Liquid, the end of Snake's journey. It is unashamedly fan service from the music to the health meters to Ocelot's fighting style changing.

I expected more from a metal gear or Konami game. Metal Gear wasn't about the story, that was always pants but quite fun when Kojima didn't get over indulgent. The really fun gadgets and mechanics you could fool around with where what made the games and to finish off with a barely playable fight was so so disappointing after a very disappointing game overall. I just felt MGS4 missed the point so much. I was so glad to see Peace Walker and MGSV (for all its faults) really double down on the gameplay again.

Gregorym2 wrote: »

god Im so happy I started this thread!!! will any of you guys be playing Kojima's new stuff?

Definitely, although I fear he has been given too much free reign. He needs someone there to tell him no, when he is given free reign you end up with MGS2 and MGS4, his two weakest games. The two best Metal Gears for me where the ones he had the least control over, MGS3 and Ghost Babel. He's an ideas man and really has a knack for backing his games with really fun mechanics, even if they are inconsequential to the game and can be ignored, it's just fun to try something and smile when it works.

I also really love the games Kojima produced outside of Metal Gear. ZoE2 is an absolute classic and I adore Boktai even if it's impossible to play in the irish weather!

Penn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I expected more from a metal gear or Konami game. Metal Gear wasn't about the story, that was always pants but quite fun when Kojima didn't get over indulgent. The really fun gadgets and mechanics you could fool around with where what made the games and to finish off with a barely playable fight was so so disappointing after a very disappointing game overall. I just felt MGS4 missed the point so much. I was so glad to see Peace Walker and MGSV (for all its faults) really double down on the gameplay again.

And I think this is where the disconnect happens, because for me, MGS was every bit as much about the story as the gameplay. I absolutely loved the whole MGS story and got incredibly invested in it, for all its flaws and batsh*t-craziness, and MGS3 is my favourite game of all time not just because of the fantastic gameplay, but also the story.

From the very first trailer for MGS4, it was all about how it was the end of the story. It was the final mission. The culmination of everything. And that's part of why I liked the final fight against Liquid Ocelot, because it really was a representation of that; having the stages of the fight cycle through the previous games. It really did feel like "This is the end for these characters". Throwing the final punches is literally throwing the final punches.

Again, I don't necessarily disagree with your standpoint, because I get that in terms of gameplay and previous MGS boss fights, it doesn't even nearly compare. But MGS4 for better or worse was more about the story, bringing everything together and ending it.

Retr0gamer

Well I didn't even like the story anyway of mgs4. It was too busy tying up every loose end it kind of forgot its own story. And even tying everything up was handled poorly with the Deus ex machina of nanomachines did it. To top it off

big boss back from the dead

was complete bull****. Number one cardinal sin of a sequel right there just for fanservices sake.

I'll have to stop just thinking about how badly that game disappointed me makes me furious not as furious as what happened to Konami though.

Fox Hound

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well I didn't even like the story anyway of mgs4. It was too busy tying up every loose end it kind of forgot its own story. And even tying everything up was handled poorly with the Deus ex machina of nanomachines did it. To top it off

big boss back from the dead

was complete bull****. Number one cardinal sin of a sequel right there just for fanservices sake.

I'll have to stop just thinking about how badly that game disappointed me makes me furious not as furious as what happened to Konami though.

But for all its faults there was still a very good game produced, much better than most of the crap released in this year!!....the stealth aspect in this game was so good...The Octo camo suits was a really cool idea, cqc was improved and the mission when you are roaming the streets of Paris was something I really enjoyed and found totally old school metal gear...I don't understand as you are a fan of previous games that you didn't enjoy this one?....also big boss was the real star of this series not solid snake!

Retr0gamer

Gregorym2 wrote: »

But for all its faults there was still a very good game produced, much better than most of the crap released in this year!!....the stealth aspect in this game was so good...The Octo camo suits was a really cool idea, cqc was improved and the mission when you are roaming the streets of Paris was something I really enjoyed and found totally old school metal gear...I don't understand as you are a fan of previous games that you didn't enjoy this one?....also big boss was the real star of this series not solid snake!

I actually felt it was a significant step backwards from MGS3 and even the older games.

The good points:

The octo camo was a more elegant solution to camo than the menu in MGS 3.

First person combat was improved. However it was still really ropey and also something that you'd usually want to avoid in these games.

I thought chapter 3 was ok, something different at least but it ends with a bad rail section and a really poor boss fight.

What I didn't like:

Levels were tiny and less interesting than other games. They whole faction thing was only in the first chapter and really made no difference to the game. I also missed how you could affect enemy supplies in MGS3, it made it worth your while to go on sabotage missions.

There was a severe lack of gadgets in the game and the amount of interesting things you could do to torture the guards in the game suffered. It really reduced the gameplay options open to the player.

The game had a vast array of weaponry yet none had a specific purpose unlike older games. Nearly every weapon was just a stat variance on others and none were fun to use and experiment with like in older games with less weapons. The tiers of weapons all had their purpose in those games.

Ditching the normal guards for robots of the robo frog women things later in the game. They just weren't as much fun to mess around with.

Not one good boss battle in the entire game considering that MGS always had excellent and interesting boss fights with multiple ways to bring down enemies. Konami is also legendary for good boss fights. The gimmicks don't really work and the best way to kill them is just fill them with lead.

I also didn't appreciate the return to the endless interruptions and cutscenes from MGS2. The story was dire and having it told to you in cutscenes that lasted 30-45 minutes was insanity. You keep getting interrupted by cutscenes and codexes as you are trying to play the game.

One of the things I appreciated in MGS3 was that after the initial torrent of cutscenes the game was happy enough to let you just play the game and enjoy the gameplay systems. Sure it had its overindulgence of cutscenes at times but it was well paced so it never became annoying. It was a brave enough game to stand on its gameplay systems alone.

Fox Hound

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Gregorym2 wrote: »

But for all its faults there was still a very good game produced, much better than most of the crap released in this year!!....the stealth aspect in this game was so good...The Octo camo suits was a really cool idea, cqc was improved and the mission when you are roaming the streets of Paris was something I really enjoyed and found totally old school metal gear...I don't understand as you are a fan of previous games that you didn't enjoy this one?....also big boss was the real star of this series not solid snake!

I actually felt it was a significant step backwards from MGS3 and even the older games.

The good points:

The octo camo was a more elegant solution to camo than the menu in MGS 3.

First person combat was improved. However it was still really ropey and also something that you'd usually want to avoid in these games.

I thought chapter 3 was ok, something different at least but it ends with a bad rail section and a really poor boss fight.

What I didn't like:

Levels were tiny and less interesting than other games. They whole faction thing was only in the first chapter and really made no difference to the game. I also missed how you could affect enemy supplies in MGS3, it made it worth your while to go on sabotage missions.

There was a severe lack of gadgets in the game and the amount of interesting things you could do to torture the guards in the game suffered. It really reduced the gameplay options open to the player.

The game had a vast array of weaponry yet none had a specific purpose unlike older games. Nearly every weapon was just a stat variance on others and none were fun to use and experiment with like in older games with less weapons. The tiers of weapons all had their purpose in those games.

Ditching the normal guards for robots of the robo frog women things later in the game. They just weren't as much fun to mess around with.

Not one good boss battle in the entire game considering that MGS always had excellent and interesting boss fights with multiple ways to bring down enemies. Konami is also legendary for good boss fights. The gimmicks don't really work and the best way to kill them is just fill them with lead.

I also didn't appreciate the return to the endless interruptions and cutscenes from MGS2. The story was dire and having it told to you in cutscenes that lasted 30-45 minutes was insanity. You keep getting interrupted by cutscenes and codexes as you are trying to play the game.

One of the things I appreciated in MGS3 was that after the initial torrent of cutscenes the game was happy enough to let you just play the game and enjoy the gameplay systems. Sure it had its overindulgence of cutscenes at times but it was well paced so it never became annoying. It was a brave enough game to stand on its gameplay systems alone.

Metal Gear 3 was an amazing game....And I believe after the fall out from MGS2 and the whole raiden thing that MGS3 probably saved the series....it was really well thought out game....I wasn't a huge fan of eating wildlife and healing myself but it was still a great game.....MGS4 was always going to suffer because it was going back to solid snake as the main lead for the game....something I believe Kojima struggled with as he tried to replace Snake in MGS2 and then had big boss as a lead in 3...Bringing snake back in for mgs4 as the lead was always going to be hard one to pull off, I think it was really good game and I still go back and play it every now and again!!

Fox Hound

Also why wasn't gray fox mentioned in the phantom pain?

Retr0gamer

Gregorym2 wrote: »

Also why wasn't gray fox mentioned in the phantom pain?

Kojima likes to tie up every loose end but also isn't beyond retconning his own work. It looked more and more like he was pretending the MG games on MSX never happened especially concerning Big Boss

who definitely died at the end of the first game... and the second!

Atoms for Peace

Kojima was responsible for the backtracking in MGS for the sniper rifle which has to be one of the most annoying bits ever put to code in a game.

Fox Hound

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Kojima was responsible for the backtracking in MGS for the sniper rifle which has to be one of the most annoying bits ever put to code in a game.

PS1 Games are all guilty of this, Resident Evil, GTA, and lots more all had you going back to previous areas to get something in order to move forward.....