Hideo Kojima; What Happened!?

Fox Hound

So I have Decided to create this Thread to see if anybody can come up with a conclusion of why the last Metal Gear game was left unfinished??

I have cleared the game and loved it...But I also hated it!......I loved the graphics, the game play, the intelligence of how the game felt, building an army, driving Vehicles. However what I hated was the fact that the game felt unfinished, Rushed and the none excitement story line. the first part of the game played very well, but I can help feel that we will never to see what happened to big boss.....we will never get to see big boss train solid snake....does any body else feel the same ? please discuss

johnny_ultimate

Konami happened.

johnny_ultimate

I should also point out that, in addition to the Konami shenanigans, Kojima has long been an incompetent storyteller, unable to do his often intriguing ideas justice without reams of exposition and obfuscation. Metal Gear was long ago consumed by its labyrinthine lore, and Kojima's insistence on going back to plug every possible gap despite that fact that made an already barely comprehensible chronology even more confounding. MGSV was a victim of this.

It's all a shame, because when he wants to he can do a good job. Shining Lights, Even in Death was a highlight of the franchise for its assured marriage of theme and mechanics, as well as being brave enough to actively punish the player for narrative reasons. Shame it was surrounded by so much padding.

Fox Hound

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Konami happened.

I understand they just wanted to get it out on the shelves and get the cash back as quick as possible....why where they being dicks!!! surely they are all gaming people in Konami and could see this game was going to be a master piece!!!! instead the shut up shop and release an unfinished game just so they can cash in??

gizmo

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Konami happened.

To be fair, it should be acknowledged that despite Konami's blatant ****ery on the project, the game was still in development for at least 4 years with development of the FOX engine beginning well before that.

Granted, I've not played any part of MGS V yet but if there are deficiencies when it comes to the story or characters, I can't help but feel Kojima should be held partially responsible as Game Director. By the guys own admission he often needs to be reigned in in order to actually complete projects so one wonders how much had that to play in light of the finished product and subsequent ugly divorce from Konami.

Fox Hound

gizmo wrote: »

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Konami happened.

To be fair, it should be acknowledged that despite Konami's blatant ****ery on the project, the game was still in development for at least 4 years with development of the FOX engine beginning well before that.

Granted, I've not played any part of MGS V yet but if there are deficiencies when it comes to the story or characters, I can't help but feel Kojima should be held partially responsible as Game Director. By the guys own admission he often needs to be reigned in in order to actually complete projects so one wonders how much had that to play in light of the finished product and subsequent ugly divorce from Konami.

The Story in this new game is very short......Big Boss barely speaks and it is up to miller and Ocelot to fill the silence....The only reason I thought bringing in Sutherland to be big boss was because snake would turn up to be trained at some point and that would have been a perfect chance to have David Hayter back in the mix!!!....but it never happened! I was gutted.. this game left so much more unanswered questions.....

K.O.Kiki

Gregorym2 wrote: »

I understand they just wanted to get it out on the shelves and get the cash back as quick as possible....why where they being dicks!!! surely they are all gaming people in Konami and could see this game was going to be a master piece!!!! instead the shut up shop and release an unfinished game just so they can cash in??

Konami ceased being "gaming people" a long time ago.

If you want more heartbreak, look up the trailer for Metal Gear Survive.

SeantheMan

Nobody knows except Hideo and Kojima.
I doubt we'll ever find out the real truth unless he releases some autobiography or something.

johnny_ultimate

gizmo wrote: »

To be fair, it should be acknowledged that despite Konami's blatant ****ery on the project, the game was still in development for at least 4 years with development of the FOX engine beginning well before that.

Granted, I've not played any part of MGS V yet but if there are deficiencies when it comes to the story or characters, I can't help but feel Kojima should be held partially responsible as Game Director. By the guys own admission he often needs to be reigned in in order to actually complete projects so one wonders how much had that to play in light of the finished product and subsequent ugly divorce from Konami.

Indeed, and have acknowledged his own failings in my slightly less glib follow up. As a storyteller he's his own worst enemy

Fox Hound

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Gregorym2 wrote: »

I understand they just wanted to get it out on the shelves and get the cash back as quick as possible....why where they being dicks!!! surely they are all gaming people in Konami and could see this game was going to be a master piece!!!! instead the shut up shop and release an unfinished game just so they can cash in??

Konami ceased being "gaming people" a long time ago.

If you want more heartbreak, look up the trailer for Metal Gear Survive.

This makes me sad :-(......I think games now a days need people that will tell a story rather than rely on graphics and running around blowing up things!!
Games are going in the wrong direction if they listen to publishers like Konami.....for me Metal Gear was the last game that had a crazy long story, I could sit back and watch a cut scene and have a mug of tea at the same time!!

Penn

Gregorym2 wrote: »

The Story in this new game is very short......Big Boss barely speaks and it is up to miller and Ocelot to fill the silence....The only reason I thought bringing in Sutherland to be big boss was because snake would turn up to be trained at some point and that would have been a perfect chance to have David Hayter back in the mix!!!....but it never happened! I was gutted.. this game left so much more unanswered questions.....

More time wouldn't have helped the main story. It may have fleshed out more relating to the other characters, but overall, the story of Big Boss in the game is what the story was supposed to be.

It comes back to what Kojima did with having you play as Raiden in MGS2 to separate yourself from Snake and how you can't live up to the legend of Snake. Likewise, having you not play as Big Boss but instead as his "phantom" is about how we, all the people who have played the MGS games, have built up the legacy of Big Boss together. Big Boss isn't just Big Boss, it's the actions of the player who have helped create the notion of Big Boss.

The ending was always going to be the ending. We never would have gotten Solid Snake (think I read Kojima went with Sutherland because he'd been trying to get rid of Hayter for years, plus with facial capture & performance and how little BB speaks, he wanted a better actor with more nuance to play Big Boss).

I enjoyed the game a lot for what it was, and it does annoy me how stuff was clearly cut out of the game, yet the remnants of them are still there. But yeah, Kojima would have spent another two years on it if he could have, constantly adding small things regardless of how well they blend with the rest of the gameplay. Maybe Konami could have given him a bit more time to close off a few things on the story side of things, but in terms of gameplay, the game was fantastic and likely wouldn't have improved enough to warrant spending another 6 months on it.

EagererBeaver

Gregorym2 wrote: »

I understand they just wanted to get it out on the shelves and get the cash back as quick as possible....why where they being dicks!!! surely they are all gaming people in Konami and could see this game was going to be a master piece!!!! instead the shut up shop and release an unfinished game just so they can cash in??

This is naivety in the extreme. They are a business.

Sieghardt

Konami were in a hurry to get out of the business of developing games to put all their money into pachinko, a terrible business decision that has destroyed the company and left them with no hope for the future

gizmo

Sieghardt wrote: »

Konami were in a hurry to get out of the business of developing games to put all their money into pachinko, a terrible business decision that has destroyed the company and left them with no hope for the future

That analysis matches neither their actual plans nor financials though. The move to mobile has been extremely profitable for them and they've not ceased game production completely even outside of that, they're still producing the Pro Evo series as well as some other Japanese-centric IP.

Profits up at Konami as lifetime Metal Gear sales hit 49.2 million

Note, that headline is a bit misleading as, per the article, those profits were driven by mobile and other console sales in their digital entertainment wing.

Fox Hound

Penn wrote: »

Gregorym2 wrote: »

The Story in this new game is very short......Big Boss barely speaks and it is up to miller and Ocelot to fill the silence....The only reason I thought bringing in Sutherland to be big boss was because snake would turn up to be trained at some point and that would have been a perfect chance to have David Hayter back in the mix!!!....but it never happened! I was gutted.. this game left so much more unanswered questions.....

More time wouldn't have helped the main story. It may have fleshed out more relating to the other characters, but overall, the story of Big Boss in the game is what the story was supposed to be.

It comes back to what Kojima did with having you play as Raiden in MGS2 to separate yourself from Snake and how you can't live up to the legend of Snake. Likewise, having you not play as Big Boss but instead as his "phantom" is about how we, all the people who have played the MGS games, have built up the legacy of Big Boss together. Big Boss isn't just Big Boss, it's the actions of the player who have helped create the notion of Big Boss.

The ending was always going to be the ending. We never would have gotten Solid Snake (think I read Kojima went with Sutherland because he'd been trying to get rid of Hayter for years, plus with facial capture & performance and how little BB speaks, he wanted a better actor with more nuance to play Big Boss).

I enjoyed the game a lot for what it was, and it does annoy me how stuff was clearly cut out of the game, yet the remnants of them are still there. But yeah, Kojima would have spent another two years on it if he could have, constantly adding small things regardless of how well they blend with the rest of the gameplay. Maybe Konami could have given him a bit more time to close off a few things on the story side of things, but in terms of gameplay, the game was fantastic and likely wouldn't have improved enough to warrant spending another 6 months on it.

You make a great point!!! the game play was perfect and i suppose in that sense the game was ready to be played!!! but what happens now?
will we get remakes of the first two metal gear games?

Penn

Gregorym2 wrote: »

You make a great point!!! the game play was perfect and i suppose in that sense the game was ready to be played!!! but what happens now?
will we get remakes of the first two metal gear games?

Doubtful I reckon. If Konami do keep making games using the Fox Engine and MGS Franchise, it'll be something they can have multiplayer and microtransactions in.

Retr0gamer

gizmo wrote: »

That analysis matches neither their actual plans nor financials though. The move to mobile has been extremely profitable for them and they've not ceased game production completely even outside of that, they're still producing the Pro Evo series as well as some other Japanese-centric IP.

Profits up at Konami as lifetime Metal Gear sales hit 49.2 million

Note, that headline is a bit misleading as, per the article, those profits were driven by mobile and other console sales in their digital entertainment wing.

Konami also aren't really about videogames either. A lot of those profits are from non-videogame related business such as the sport clubs that are Konami own. Videogames was such a small piece of Konami that they dumped it.

kunst nugget

I was playing MGS4 until I gave up in Act 4 at the Vamp boss fight. I'd say about a third of the game time was me actually playing the game and the rest was listening to absolute bollix being spouted by the characters. The couple of hours of gameplay that I managed to get was enjoyable enough but it wasn't worth the rest of it. I hate leaving a game that I've played that much unfinished but I don't know if I'll be able to face any more of those interminable cut-scenes. I had enjoyed 1-3 and I do have 5 waiting to play but 4 has put me off playing any of them ever again…

Fox Hound

kunst nugget wrote: »

I was playing MGS4 until I gave up in Act 4 at the Vamp boss fight. I'd say about a third of the game time was me actually playing the game and the rest was listening to absolute bollix being spouted by the characters. The couple of hours of gameplay that I managed to get was enjoyable enough but it wasn't worth the rest of it. I hate leaving a game that I've played that much unfinished but I don't know if I'll be able to face any more of those interminable cut-scenes. I had enjoyed 1-3 and I do have 5 waiting to play but 4 has put me off playing any of them ever again

Im pretty sure you will love MGV then....it is a completely different beast!!.....I think there is two types of metal gear fans...the ones that love the dragged out cut scenes (which would be me) and the people that cant stand it....but MG4 was an amazing game and I defo recommend for you to finish it!!...plus you can always skip them.

Beefy78

Yeah I'd be with you Greg. Metal Gear Solid V is all gameplay. So I struggle to get on with it. For me the Metal Gear Solid has always been about the preposterous, overlong cut-scenes and babbling dialogue.

B.A._Baracus

I too would agree with you Gregorym2.
MGSV has the best graphics and has the best gameplay. But there is next to no story and Metal Gear games always have a big story with plot-twists. Don't know how Kojima made that decision. The marketing for the game was all about revenge and this is how Big Boss turns evil... but of course

It never shows you big boss turning evil and then at the very end it's revealed it wasn't Big Boss at all.

I doubt we'll ever be officially told what happened between Kojima and Konami but others (such as series composer Rika Muranaka) have said Kojima was spending too much money developing the game and took too long. He was being a perfectionist. But Konami is all about the business and they wanted to release the game.
So it's a clear case of Konami telling Kojima the game is coming out XXX (September 2015 as we know now) and telling him to polish up the current build.

Sieghardt

gizmo wrote: »

That analysis matches neither their actual plans nor financials though. The move to mobile has been extremely profitable for them and they've not ceased game production completely even outside of that, they're still producing the Pro Evo series as well as some other Japanese-centric IP.

Profits up at Konami as lifetime Metal Gear sales hit 49.2 million

Note, that headline is a bit misleading as, per the article, those profits were driven by mobile and other console sales in their digital entertainment wing.

They are making big profits because they had a big selling release but no longer have the cost of ongoing development. New games of that calibre arent going to appear out of thin air

gizmo

Sieghardt wrote: »

They are making big profits because they had a big selling release but no longer have the cost of ongoing development. New games of that calibre arent going to appear out of thin air

Are you referring to MGS V here? The reason I added that caveat at the bottom was because the headline was misleading in the sense it insinuated MGS was responsible for those profits. On the contrary...

Profits for the segment amounted to 8.66 billion yen ($84.6 million), and were largely driven by the stable performances of mobile and console titles including Star Wars: Force Collection, PES Club Manager, Jikkyou Pawafuru Puroyakyu, and PES Euro 2016.

The lions share of MGS V sales would have been included in previous financials, not the Q1 2017 ones that are being reported here. Dualshockers also have an interesting break down of the report as well as some slides from, I assume, the relevant call. Most notable are their thought son VR as well as the titles which will factor into their Q2 financials.

Fox Hound

Beefy78 wrote: »

Yeah I'd be with you Greg. Metal Gear Solid V is all gameplay. So I struggle to get on with it. For me the Metal Gear Solid has always been about the preposterous, overlong cut-scenes and babbling dialogue.

I really do enjoy the cuts scenes...and my brain was in over drive when i heard about this game.....I was full sure this game was gonna have 3 parts...first part would be big boss trying to do the right thing, then end up in a coma 9 years past, he wakes up and slowly starts his decent into evil....then the 3 rd part would be maybe another couple of years pass so we get to see teenage solid snake!!!....and then the game would end with boos sending him on his first mission......thats what I thought we would get

Fox Hound

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I too would agree with you Gregorym2.
MGSV has the best graphics and has the best gameplay. But there is next to no story and Metal Gear games always have a big story with plot-twists. Don't know how Kojima made that decision. The marketing for the game was all about revenge and this is how Big Boss turns evil... but of course

It never shows you big boss turning evil and then at the very end it's revealed it wasn't Big Boss at all.

I doubt we'll ever be officially told what happened between Kojima and Konami but others (such as series composer Rika Muranaka) have said Kojima was spending too much money developing the game and took too long. He was being a perfectionist. But Konami is all about the business and they wanted to release the game.
So it's a clear case of Konami telling Kojima the game is coming out XXX (September 2015 as we know now) and telling him to polish up the current build.

It was devastating...its like Konami left out the story on purpose....maybe this gives him time to come back in five years for a big money reunion and a story that he has secretly been working on from now on till then!!!

Sieghardt

gizmo wrote: »

Are you referring to MGS V here? The reason I added that caveat at the bottom was because the headline was misleading in the sense it insinuated MGS was responsible for those profits. On the contrary...

I'm referring to the fact they no longer have to pay the hundreds of staff that were working on it. That's a short term gain because you dont have the expenses so they're getting higher profit from lower revenue.

We already went through this exact same pattern with Sega and SNK over the last few years

K.O.Kiki

Gregorym2 wrote: »

It was devastating...its like Konami left out the story on purpose....maybe this gives him time to come back in five years for a big money reunion and a story that he has secretly been working on from now on till then!!!

I wish I could be as optimistic as you.

Retr0gamer

Gregorym2 wrote: »

Im pretty sure you will love MGV then....it is a completely different beast!!.....I think there is two types of metal gear fans...the ones that love the dragged out cut scenes (which would be me) and the people that cant stand it....but MG4 was an amazing game and I defo recommend for you to finish it!!...plus you can always skip them.

I suggest not returning to MGS4. The cutscenes get longer and the actual gameplay after the 3 chapter gets even worse. It's all capped off with what has to be the worst boss fight in all of Konami's history and an embarrassingly cringe ending.

K.O.Kiki

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I suggest not returning to MGS4. The cutscenes get longer and the actual gameplay after the 3 chapter gets even worse. It's all capped off with what has to be the worst boss fight in all of Konami's history and an embarrassingly cringe ending.

You would deny this man Chapter 4?? :eek:

gizmo

Sieghardt wrote: »

I'm referring to the fact they no longer have to pay the hundreds of staff that were working on it. That's a short term gain because you dont have the expenses so they're getting higher profit from lower revenue.

We already went through this exact same pattern with Sega and SNK over the last few years

Oh for sure, but we're talking marginally lower revenue based on the financials reported. Their mobile and other console endeavors have shown, for better or for worse, they can still make a profit without the costly aspect of other AAA development. What I'm getting at is, while I don't particularly like the direction they've gone in, the idea that they've destroyed the company and left themselves with no hope for the future is more than a little off base.

Penn

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

You would deny this man Chapter 4?? :eek:

Plus there are those who feel the final boss fight is one of the best boss fights for those who have played each of the previous games and loved the story. The final boss fight is pure fan service through and through and is absolutely nothing special in terms of gameplay. But a lot of people think it's really great.