Possible Gt Gt Grandfather on Griffiths Valuation

Natonstan

I'm trying to find out about my mothers side of my family, they are all Morans from Milltownpass in Westmeath, I obviously know my grandmother (still living), her parents (Anne Lynam and John Moran), and I know John's father was also John, now I can't go any further than this.
John Moran, my grandmothers father is on the 1911 Census as he was born 1904, obviously his own father is listed as head of the house and he would be born late 1800s, and I came across the only Moran in the Milltownpass/Pass of Kilbride listed on the Griffiths Valuation, so I'm sure this 'William Moran' must be his father, but I've got no idea what sort of records would have been kept back then, and where I would look to find out more information about this John Moran, can anyone offer any advice?
http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/westmeath/passofkilbride.htm

L1011

The great grandfather is born prior to civil registration, but within the era when baptismal records may exist. Their marriage would have to have been registered - it should be 1889 off the info there

Both of those should give the great great grandfathers name. Baptismal records are free to view but no free index (as yet);l marriages are indexed back to 1866 with images back to the early 1880s currently

L1011

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1888/10777/5930437.pdf has a possible marriage - I wouldn't be entirely confident; however he can't write and she could (that isn't her signature, but the lack of a "her mark" means she did sign the original) which matches the census and the ages are within an acceptable range. Can't read the residence well either.

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635268#page/13/mode/1up is the Rochfortbridge Parish baptism record for the era they'd both be born in. I'm not nice enough to read through it in full to check!

Natonstan

L1011 wrote: »

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1888/10777/5930437.pdf has a possible marriage - I wouldn't be entirely confident; however he can't write and she could (that isn't her signature, but the lack of a "her mark" means she did sign the original) which matches the census and the ages are within an acceptable range. Can't read the residence well either.

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635268#page/13/mode/1up is the Rochfortbridge Parish baptism record for the era they'd both be born in. I'm not nice enough to read through it in full to check!

You know what, that marriage is 1888, that's John and Catherine Whelehan by the looks of it, and that would be my GREAT grandparents (my grandmothers grandparents), it's the generation before I'm looking for, but I've never seen that record for my great grandparents before so I definitely appreciate that!

The person listed on that Griffiths list is a William Moran, who I presume would be that John Morans father, but I can't be 100%

Natonstan

Here's the family on the 1901 Census - http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Milltown/Milltown/1782292/

And here's the family in 1911 - http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Westmeath/Milltown/Milltown/884893/

It's the generation before 1901 that i've been stuck at, and that William Moran on that sole website is the only other Moran I can find before that point, but weirdly enough, if you do a search for Morans in Westmeath on the allabourIreland valuation index, 0 results come back

pinkypinky

I think you need to expand out your search in the more recent generation before you can properly connect to Griffiths - and if your ancestor was not the head of house, then he/she won't be on GV. Presumption isn't enough.

Do more research in the recently released GRO registers and combine with baptism records - comb through looking for everyone with the right surnames. It sounds like you're focused on the Moran line, but by researching the maternal lines, you might yield other Morans.

Natonstan

pinkypinky wrote: »

I think you need to expand out your search in the more recent generation before you can properly connect to Griffiths - and if your ancestor was not the head of house, then he/she won't be on GV. Presumption isn't enough.

Do more research in the recently released GRO registers and combine with baptism records - comb through looking for everyone with the right surnames. It sounds like you're focused on the Moran line, but by researching the maternal lines, you might yield other Morans.

Thanks for the advice Pinky, one thing I did come across is a dog license application for John Moran in the Rochfortbridge area, but I suppoes you may be right, I should look at maternal also, I think the reason I stuck with the Morans mainly was because I was 100% certain they'd been in that town, Milltownpass for generations, but with the wife Catherine Whelehan I'm not sure where she could have been born, I have some digging to do

L1011

Natonstan wrote: »

You know what, that marriage is 1888, that's John and Catherine Whelehan by the looks of it, and that would be my GREAT grandparents (my grandmothers grandparents), it's the generation before I'm looking for, but I've never seen that record for my great grandparents before so I definitely appreciate that!

The person listed on that Griffiths list is a William Moran, who I presume would be that John Morans father, but I can't be 100%

Your grandmothers grandparents are your great-great-grandparents. It looks like Moran and either Cormack or McCormack to me?

Natonstan

L1011 wrote: »

Natonstan wrote: »

You know what, that marriage is 1888, that's John and Catherine Whelehan by the looks of it, and that would be my GREAT grandparents (my grandmothers grandparents), it's the generation before I'm looking for, but I've never seen that record for my great grandparents before so I definitely appreciate that!

The person listed on that Griffiths list is a William Moran, who I presume would be that John Morans father, but I can't be 100%

Your grandmothers grandparents are your great-great-grandparents. It looks like Moran and either Cormack or McCormack to me?

I have my great grandfathers Birth certificate here, and the mother is Catherine Whelehan, looking at that marriage record you linked it definitely doesn't look like Whelehan

Natonstan

Here's the birth cert for my great grandfather John Joseph Moran: http://imgur.com/a/nvAwk

L1011

That's ùnlikely to be their marriage record then. The only Catherine Whelehan marriages that are likely predate the current image range online unfortuantely.

Natonstan

L1011 wrote: »

That's nlikely to be their marriage record then. The only Catherine Whelehan marriages that are likely predate the current image range online unfortuantely.

Thank you very much for the help anyway L10, I'm trying to find some information about my great grandparents now also, that would be John Moran who's birth cert I just posted above, and his wife Anne Lynam, these are the resources I have:
Roots Ireland' terrible marriage details: http://imgur.com/a/vnEkT
My grandmothers birth cert with their names listed: http://imgur.com/a/WUkpo
My grandmother can 100% confirm they were married in Rochfortbridge so that part is at least correct, I can't for the life of me find a mention of Anne Lyname anywhere, that document says she was baptized in Meath, and she had a sister Delia, some of their other kids (My grandmas siblings) were Daphne, Geraldine, Elizabeth, Mary, Christopher, John, Anthony, Anne, all born in Mullingar

pinkypinky

Just to add: there's lots of kids with Moran/Lynam combo on the FMP index in 1930/40s so we're working on the right surname.

I can't find a marriage anywhere for someone called Anne Lynam (obvious variants searched).

Natonstan

pinkypinky wrote: »

Just to add: there's lots of kids with Moran/Lynam combo on the FMP index in 1930/40s so we're working on the right surname.

I can't find a marriage anywhere for someone called Anne Lynam (obvious variants searched).

It's funny Pinky, if you remember I was having trouble a few months back getting a hold of my fathers birth cert in Mayo, and it turned out he was stuck in a book in a tiny parish, his details hadn't been published online, I seem to have the most awkward family when it comes to research.

pinkypinky

Just to point out that your grandmother can only report that she was told her parents married in that parish - she wasn't present herself. Remember that people are sometimes wrong, without malice, and in genealogy, we have to rely on what the records tell us.

I think it would be worth contacting the church directly if no one else turns up a marriage certificate. We could be looking at a situation where they never actually got married too.

Natonstan

pinkypinky wrote: »

Just to point out that your grandmother can only report that she was told her parents married in that parish - she wasn't present herself. Remember that people are sometimes wrong, without malice, and in genealogy, we have to rely on what the records tell us.

I think it would be worth contacting the church directly if no one else turns up a marriage certificate. We could be looking at a situation where they never actually got married too.

Definitely, she's not got the greatest memory so I wouldn't take her word for it, the eldest daughter, XXXXX is actually still alive, in her late 80s now so I'll try my best to get in contact with her, and i'll also send an email to the church in Rochfortbridge to see if they can find any trace.

Natonstan

pinkypinky wrote: »

Just to point out that your grandmother can only report that she was told her parents married in that parish - she wasn't present herself. Remember that people are sometimes wrong, without malice, and in genealogy, we have to rely on what the records tell us.

I think it would be worth contacting the church directly if no one else turns up a marriage certificate. We could be looking at a situation where they never actually got married too.

Pinky, just an update, I talked to some of the older relatives and they said the surname Kavanagh rings a bell when it comes to Anne Lynams mother, I tried to do some research with this new information and I've come across this birth record, at the bottom of this page:
http://imgur.com/a/uNFK2

The birth year adds up, 1913 and it confirms the fact she was born in Meath, close to the Westmeath border, obviously I'm still not 100% until I can get the marriage record, but I'm fairly confident about that

pinkypinky

Sister called Bridget (Delia) born to those same parents, so you could well be on to something here.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1915/01386/1570148.pdf

Multiple other children born 1900/1910s to these parents.

This looks to be them on the 1911 census.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Meath/Ballyboggan/Killiskillen/715658/

Natonstan

pinkypinky wrote: »

Sister called Bridget (Delia) born to those same parents, so you could well be on to something here.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1915/01386/1570148.pdf

Multiple other children born 1900/1910s to these parents.

This looks to be them on the 1911 census.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Meath/Ballyboggan/Killiskillen/715658/

There's a Frank on there too, I specifically remember my grandma telling me she was sure there was a brother named Frank, It's interesting to note the name is LYNAN not LYNAM like I originally thought, thanks for the help Pinky, I've got plenty to go on now

pinkypinky

I'd say both Lynan and Lynam are used interchangeably - all the kids are registered with the M version.

Natonstan

I managed to talk to my grandmothers oldest sister yesterday and I found out that the William Moran on the Griffiths valuation may very well not be a relative... it turns out my great,great,great grandfather was in the US, and he ended up returning to Ireland when his son, my great,great grandfather got sick (Hard to believe someone returned to Ireland in those times), another interesting piece of information I got, was that my grandmothers father was actually planning to emigrate to the US also, he actually got as far as Dublin, saw the boat, then changed his mind and decided he wanted to marry my great grandmother (She was 16 at the time), it's amazing how small actions like that are so significant in terms of our own lives

pinkypinky

Much more common that you'd think that people returned to Ireland, and an important lesson learned not to make assumptions!

Waitsian

pinkypinky wrote:

Much more common that you'd think that people returned to Ireland, and an important lesson learned not to make assumptions!

Probably the biggest mistake first timers make. I had to learn the hard way after many fruitless searches. Golden rule no 1 - assume nothing as fact!

carolinej

pinkypinky wrote: »

Much more common that you'd think that people returned to Ireland, and an important lesson learned not to make assumptions!

sorry to hijack thread, but my great grandfather emigrated to the US in c1915 but came back to Ireland and got married in 1919 & the rest is history.
I tracked down the ships manifest & his destination was Harrison NJ to a sister I didn't know had emigrated. Somehow through online research I came across her great grandaugher, who told me she remembered her grandmother telling her an uncle had come to America, worked in a saw mill, hated it and went home!!! The internet is an amazing tool :-)

Natonstan

carolinej wrote: »

pinkypinky wrote: »

Much more common that you'd think that people returned to Ireland, and an important lesson learned not to make assumptions!

sorry to hijack thread, but my great grandfather emigrated to the US in c1915 but came back to Ireland and got married in 1919 & the rest is history.
I tracked down the ships manifest & his destination was Harrison NJ to a sister I didn't know had emigrated. Somehow through online research I came across her great grandaugher, who told me she remembered her grandmother telling her an uncle had come to America, worked in a saw mill, hated it and went home!!! The internet is an amazing tool :-)

Sounds like we have a similar story then! That's really interesting to hear this was fairly common. I'm trying to get the baptism for my ancestor that left for America and returned right now so hopefully when I get his fathers name I may be able to find the ship manifest also. The internet truly is amazing!

spurious

One of my lot went over with her older sister in the 1880s, nabbed herself a gentleman with a few bob (whose family were building a lot of the northern Bronx/Pelham areas of NY), who then financed at least two trips home, followed by the passage for three brothers (who all got jobs in the building followed by fire brigade and police once the towns were up and running), an aunt, and finally dear old Mammy once she was widowed and the baby sister.

My own brother who went over in the 1980s also got in touch with the same family and got some assistance in his first couple of months.