Zoos - Ethical or not?

JupiterKid

I'm lounging around in my living room with the patio door open and I can clearly hear the seals from Dublin Zoo.:)

This has got me thinking - what's your opinion on zoos? 15 or so years ago, I was dead against zoos as I saw them as prisons for animals and research does indicate that big animals kept in small enclosures suffer a lot of stress and mental health problems.

On the other hand, many modern zoos now perform important conservation and breeding programmes, particularly for vulnerable/endangered species.

I was in Dublin zoo a few years back (hadn't been there in years) and the extra space the big animals have in the new African Plains section is great - far better compared to what they had before. Yet I also couldn't help feeling that the elephant enclosure, although much bigger now, is still too small for them.

Your thoughts on zoos?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Are you not freezing with the door open

Barry Badrinath

What are the seals sayin'?

3rdDegree

Feel similar to you OP. I have mixed feelings. Zoos do a lot of good now and the enclosures are bigger, but I still think for some animals the living space is too small. But for others, particularly potential prey, I'd wonder is a zoo a much less stressful place than the wild?

Ted111

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

What are the seals sayin'?

"Either close that door, or turn the fuking tv down"!

Stigura

Must be crazy, listening to seals ..... Sh1t! Look what I just done there! I really didn't mean that either!

Zoo's? Yeah. I remember when ye'd see a lion in what amounted to this room I'm sitting in. Only, that was It, for him. No walks up the track. No going into town. Just that small space. What he could see from there was all he'd ever see again. Pretty f**kin brutal. Concrete and bars.

Then, the whole safari park idea kicked off. I guess that maybe sort of showed the zoos up for what they were. Animal Concentration Camps. So, the zoos ~ and their patrons ~ started to cop on. Now, zoos are generally much better. At least those in north western Europe seem to be?

The whole ethos, about breeding for conservation, is good too. Not strictly a zoo, granted. But, look at the work done with Spoon Billed Sandpipers at the Wildfowl Trust. Fantastic!

So, yeah. Their earlier report read " Could do Much better ". They pulled their socks up. Hopefully, the good will now improve and the bad get shut the f**k down.

JupiterKid

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

What are the seals sayin'?

Arf, arf, arf!!!:pac::D

Yes it's a tad chilly. Heading out shortly anyway.

Atlantic Dawn

They are basically retirement homes for animals, most are sourced from other zoos and would not have been proper wild animals from the outset so the captive nature and daily food handed to them would be all the animals know as the norm. I suppose the awareness of the animals helps fund protection programmes.

Barry Badrinath

JupiterKid wrote: »

Arf, arf, arf!!!:pac::D

Yes it's a tad chilly. Heading out shortly anyway.

Where ya goin'?

corner of hells

JupiterKid wrote: »

I'm lounging around in my living room with the patio door open and I can clearly hear the seals from Dublin Zoo.:)

This has got me thinking - what's your opinion on zoos? 15 or so years ago, I was dead against zoos as I saw them as prisons for animals and research does indicate that big animals kept in small enclosures suffer a lot of stress and mental health problems.

On the other hand, many modern zoos now perform important conservation and breeding programmes, particularly for vulnerable/endangered species.

I was in Dublin zoo a few years back (hadn't been there in years) and the extra space the big animals have in the new African Plains section is great - far better compared to what they had before. Yet I also couldn't help feeling that the elephant enclosure, although much bigger now, is still too small for them.

Your thoughts on zoos?

Are you the president ?

corner of hells

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Where ya goin'?

Probably to the zoo.

Barry Badrinath

corner of hells wrote: »

Probably to the zoo.

As long as he's not going clubbing.

Gedditt?

Clubbing.

Stheno

corner of hells wrote: »

Are you the president ?

Don't be silly, everyone knows Michael d is tucked in by Sabina at 7:30 every evening with his cocoa

fergiesfolly

Prefer to see them in places like Fota or other parkland than a zoo. In Dublin a few years ago and there was a gorilla in there that looked so depressed, I would've left had it not been for the kids with us. I couldn't wait to get to the exit. Still saddens me to think of him stuck in there.

JupiterKid

corner of hells wrote: »

Are you the president ?

Ha! That would be fun. Nope, I live along the Northern edge of the Phoenix Park.

Grayson

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

What are the seals sayin'?

Baaabyyy To me you are a roller dictionary I can't deny.

(That's what I thought he was saying for years)

Pickpocket

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

They are basically retirement homes for animals, most are sourced from other zoos and would not have been proper wild animals from the outset so the captive nature and daily food handed to them would be all the animals know as the norm.

But does that make it ethical? Genetically engineered, front-heavy chickens with impaired, often crippled, legs only know that as the norm, but it's still reprehensible husbandry.

suicide_circus

I understand why they're necessary, I just can't enjoy watching a caged animal, especially animals like bears who are meant to range 100s of km slowly going insane behind a glass enclosure. I wouldn't even own a bird as a pet - a bird not able to fly - seems unimaginably sad to me.

gramar

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

What are the seals sayin'?

...we're never gonna survive unless we get a little crazy...

Grayson

JupiterKid wrote: »

Ha! That would be fun. Nope, I live along the Northern edge of the Phoenix Park.

I lived on the north circular as a kid. During the winter my mum would bring us for walks around the outside and we could see the animal enclosures through the fence.

Pickpocket

gramar wrote: »

...we're never gonna survive unless we get a little crazy...

Ah yes, the post of the day and it's not even 8pm. Well played.

SEPT 23 1989

For those of us who haven't the pockets to pontificate about seeing animals in the wild the zoo has always been a good thing for my children

Mountainsandh

Same as you OP, mixed feelings.

More like 70/30 against them.
I like that they sometimes contribute meaningfully to research and preservation. I dislike everything else about them, and wouldn't be keen on taking my kids to zoos wherever I visit.

I'd rather show them the natural museum.

With TV, the internet, and easy travel, there's no need to see live animals in cages really.

Widdershins

I'm not sure which bit is the African plains but when i was at Dublin zoo earlier this year, the lion was pacing over and back like it was going mad. It hadn't the room to break into a run. Nor did it have anywhere to lie down properly out of sight of zoo visitors. I was disgusted. The monkey shed is pathetic, tiny, dingy and dark.

Widdershins

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Prefer to see them in places like Fota or other parkland than a zoo. In Dublin a few years ago and there was a gorilla in there that looked so depressed, I would've left had it not been for the kids with us. I couldn't wait to get to the exit. Still saddens me to think of him stuck in there.

Oh jesus, I remember him as well

learn_more

I certainly object to reptiles being held in small glass windows boxes with orange lights being shone down on them. I saw this in London Zoo I just found it totally vile. Farm type animals seem to look happy enough. Birds have some space but that's not quite same as being able to fly wherever you want. But overall I would scrap em. I'm happy enough to watch wildlife on my big HD TV.

paleoperson

They are making money out of the animals so they should always be on the defensive as to how they're helping them, a bit like a decent democracy. The days when they could just put some animals in cages for people to gawk at are hopefully a thing of the past. I can see a place for them if they strictly conform to standards and are actively helping to conserve and re-establish the animals.

It still feels wrong and kind of is wrong, but we're living in a "wrong" world.

andekwarhola

JupiterKid wrote: »

and I can clearly hear the seals from Dublin Zoo.:)

Are you just lion around?

entropi

I'm not overly fond of zoos, but the knowledge that many of the species will still be around, and be out of the reach of scumbag poachers, helps.

andekwarhola

If I had the choice, I'd rather see animals in a more humane habitat but for a lot of kids, especially low income families, it's the closest they'll get to seeing real wild fauna.

metaoblivia

I do love seeing animals I wouldn't normally get to see, but I worry about the habitats they're kept in. Many zoos have gotten a lot better with the more open range habitats (weirdly, Disney's Animal Kingdom safari is one of the best examples I've seen of this), but that's expensive to put in place. Zoos do make their money off of the animals, but they're not exactly rolling in dough, so it can take years to put in better habitats.

Also, many zoos have research and medical facilities to help local wildlife and some of the money they make goes to that as well. So I think most zoos intend to do the best they can by their animals, but funding and space is a constant issue. And without the animals to draw visitors, there's no money...

zoe 3619

Have never been to Dublin zoo,but have visited the Cotswold Wildlife Park in the uk a few times.Great space for all the animals,and doing a huge amount for conservation and raising awareness.
Some species are only kept going by raising animals in captivity,and hoping for their native conditions to improve enough to re-release them.
Have also visited a monkey forest in the u.k a few times.80 or so acres enclosed,and keeping macaques living freely with the hopes of re releasing them when there's less unrest in the area they originate from.
Have seen some bad zoos around europe,with unhappy looking animals in unsuitable conditions,but some zoos are great,and many species would be extinct without them and they're protection and breeding programmes.

Grandeeod

If the animals are born in zoo's, bred in zoo's and live in zoo's, is that not some kind of evolution from the days of victorian zoo's where wild animals were captured, plonked in cages and put on view to an innocently ignorant population??

AvBBrother

Not ethical.

Tilikum

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Prefer to see them in places like Fota or other parkland than a zoo. In Dublin a few years ago and there was a gorilla in there that looked so depressed, I would've left had it not been for the kids with us. I couldn't wait to get to the exit. Still saddens me to think of him stuck in there.

Yeah, unlike the cheetahs in fota. Trapped in tiny patches of land for gob****es to look at.

All zoos, circus' & sea parks should be outlawed.

mohawk

Widdershins wrote: »

Oh jesus, I remember him as well

Harry was his name. He died a few months ago. The new ape enclosures are so much better then they used to be. The animals can hide away alot more now. I always hated the old gorilla, chimpanzee, and orangutang enclosures as the animals looked depressed.

Dublin Zoo is improving a lot of its enclosures. I imagine money dictates how fast they can do this. Historically zoos were in no way ethical. Nowadays zoo animals tend to be born and bred in zoos. They would struggle in the wild.
Sadly for some animals it looks like they will become extinct in the wild. So I guess nowadays there is a place for wildlife parks and zoos.

ThinkProgress

Watching the wolves and tigers at Dublin zoo always would make me sad... Such majestic creatures, penned in like that.

A wolf in a zoo enclosure is cruelty... Not a shadow of doubt about that. They are an animal designed to roam for hundreds of miles...

They live much longer lives in captivity, but they are incredibly frustrated - even carving out huge tunnel networks underground... Some people believe they are trying to find an escape route out of their enclosure!

My dogs live a life that is closer to their natural lifestyle. I would not subject domesticated dogs to 24hrs penned in like those wolves... Very sad.

Richard Hillman

Only for ones protecting endangered animals. There is absolutely no reason why a lion or an elephant should be in a zoo. They should be phased out.

I also do not buy into this whole theory or if they released them into the wild, they would die. That's the circle of life, it's a leap of fortune.

Pickpocket

ThinkProgress wrote: »

My dogs live a life that is closer to their natural lifestyle.

What exactly is the 'natural lifestyle' of a dog given that the species has been domesticated for the best part of 20,000 years?

Stigura

mohawk wrote: »

Harry was his name. He died a few months ago. .......... I always hated the old gorilla, chimpanzee, and orangutang enclosures as the animals looked depressed.

This, and the gorilla getting out at London, the other day ..... I read he'd been on a diet? Good god, do they Never learn?!

Remember " Guy "? Probably the best known inmate of London Zoo, Ever.

When the poor sod finally found his own way out, they offered him to the Natural History Museum. Museum basically said; ' WTF would we want That for?! We're a Natural History place. There's nothing Natural in That great bucket of lard!

He's not, in any way, representative of a Mountain Gorilla. It's a bloated carcass! Get rid of it!'

And now, a generation later ....? Having to put their new one on a bloody diet :rolleyes:

Now, That's gotta be wrong.

darlett

A decent question but I think Zoos are a source of wonderment and inspiration especially for children and that the potential good of this outweighs the hopefully lessening bad of the captivity of relatively few specimens of each species contained in zoos. Who knows how much more is raised for animals in the wild by having animals in the captivity so by restricting the latter you might further limit the former. It's great that maybe most of us adults feel we're happy to never see animals in the flesh again and to get our fix watching Wildlife on One etc, for they are indeed beautifully made shows, but then most of us have already been to the zoo.

As a meat eater I'm aware that my choice to be a meat eater makes a lot more animals suffer than Harry the Gorilla. Do the lives of pigs, cows, sheep, chickens matter not a jot because they don't get names? Everytime we butter our bread do we spare a thought for Caroline the Cow who twice a day has to make the long walk to the milking parlour to have a machine suck her teats dry? Ya know if we're so concerned with unnatural existences.

As a nation of pet owners is it ok to keep rabbits in a cage or a dog yapping on a chain or in the confines of maybe a 10m x 10m back yard with maybe a 20 minute walk if the weather is nice? Clearly not.

And as mentioned by previous posters I think putting a bird in the cage is a cruel blastard act. At least more people can 'enjoy' that if its in a zoo which will at least have a relatively massive cage. But then maybe Peter the Pensioner has no other form of companionship from one end of the day til the next.

Zoos are very much the thin edge of the widest wedge.

R.D. aka MR.D

I think that if a zoo is doing good work towards conservation and education then it's not so bad. But those zoos are few and far between.

I went to Dublin zoo as a child and I don't remember learning anything about the welfare of the animals. Maybe that is my parents fault but I'd imagine a lot of parents are the same. They take the children to the zoo and do nothing to help them understand the importance/significance of conservation. It's just a spectacle, people gawking at animals. Which people can do on the internet if they really want these days.

A lot of people try to justify supporting these places by saying the animals were born in captivity but do they really think that their natural instincts don't exist because of that? It took 1000s of years to domesticate dogs so how can the offspring of a wild animal still not be a wild animal and have all the natural instincts that come with that?

Some people don't care for animals and that's fair enough but I have more respect for people who admit that than try to justify the zoo's existence as a place for children to learn about animals. Or people who say it's to keep endangered species. But what about all the animals that they have in there that aren't endangered, what's their purpose? At the end of the day, it comes down to entertainment.

In the future, I hope we'll progress to see the error of our ways. Just like animals in a circus or whales at seaworld. Slowly, attitudes will change for the better.

Widdershins

mohawk wrote: »

Harry was his name. He died a few months ago. The new ape enclosures are so much better then they used to be. The animals can hide away alot more now. I always hated the old gorilla, chimpanzee, and orangutang enclosures as the animals looked depressed.

Dublin Zoo is improving a lot of its enclosures. I imagine money dictates how fast they can do this. Historically zoos were in no way ethical. Nowadays zoo animals tend to be born and bred in zoos. They would struggle in the wild.
Sadly for some animals it looks like they will become extinct in the wild. So I guess nowadays there is a place for wildlife parks and zoos.

if they didn't have three or four new, fancy play areas I would believe they were doing their best with what money they have.All of those play areas should be given over to the animals who need extra space. They should come first.

Widdershins

entropi wrote: »

I'm not overly fond of zoos, but the knowledge that many of the species will still be around, and be out of the reach of scumbag poachers, helps.

They could be protected in Africa. Plenty of anti poaching rangers out there who need the support which might cost a lot less than keeping one or two of a species in captivity far from its natural environment..

conorhal

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Prefer to see them in places like Fota or other parkland than a zoo. In Dublin a few years ago and there was a gorilla in there that looked so depressed, I would've left had it not been for the kids with us. I couldn't wait to get to the exit. Still saddens me to think of him stuck in there.

And yet no protesters gather to free me from my depressed state in a tiny cubicle at work!