David Bowie (euthanasia) ?

CJmasgrande

I'm always suspicious (don't know exactly why) that David Bowie died by euthanasia.

Just wanted to let it out there and see does anyone else think same

CJmasgrande

CJmasgrande wrote: »

I'm always suspicious (don't know exactly why) that David Bowie died by euthanasia.

Just wanted to let it out there and see does anyone else think same

On what are you basing your suspicions?

Not that I care if he did or not, if he was terminally ill then as far as I'm concerned it's up to him if he wants to decide his terms of exit.

uch

I think he stopped breathing

Sir Osis of Liver.

Can't say I've heard of that one.

Was it before Let's Dance?

GLaDOS

You could argue it was suspicious he died right after his album came out

StupidLikeAFox

Them bloody Asians up to no good again

Winterlong

I think Elvis is still alive.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Palliative Care for terminal cancer patients speeds up the process of the final ravages of cancer. Heroin (Medically approved) has been used in such care in both the States and Britain. Kill the pain and send the sufferer on their way.

shar01

If it was euthanasia, then great for him. I would love for a sensible debate in this country about the right to die. Without the usual suspects jumping in with "hello euthanasia, goodbye granny".

I've seen people in nursing homes and you wouldn't put a dog through what they're going through.

My family know that if I end up unable to wipe me own ar$e, it's time for that one way trip to Switzerland.

everlast75

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Them bloody Asians up to no good again

Not the old ones though... just the youth in asia

seamus

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Palliative Care for terminal cancer patients speeds up the process of the final ravages of cancer. Heroin (Medically approved) has been used in such care in both the States and Britain. Kill the pain and send the sufferer on their way.

This is one of the big open secrets of the medical world.

We already euthanize terminally ill patients, we just do it slowly. Large doses of painkillers medication over a number of days/weeks to end their life rather than one huge life-ending dose.

When doctors talk of making a dying person comfortable, that's the coded speech for ending their life by over-prescribing painkillers.

Everyone knows it, yet some like to pretend that euthanasia is some big taboo subject.

myshirt

As Enda Kenny said, I'm more concerned about the youth in Ireland than the issue of Euthanasia.

Akrasia

seamus wrote: »

This is one of the big open secrets of the medical world.

We already euthanize terminally ill patients, we just do it slowly. Large doses of painkillers medication over a number of days/weeks to end their life rather than one huge life-ending dose.

When doctors talk of making a dying person comfortable, that's the coded speech for ending their life by over-prescribing painkillers.

Everyone knows it, yet some like to pretend that euthanasia is some big taboo subject.

But that's 'Double effect' not Euthanasia. God loves himself a loophole

foggy_lad

I thought he dies of a Tuesday?

seamus

seamus wrote: »

When doctors talk of making a dying person comfortable, that's the coded speech for ending their life by over-prescribing painkillers.

No it's not. Proper pain management can sometimes hasten the end of life, but the aim is to control pain, not kill someone.

A painkiller isn't overprescribed if it manages pain, regardless of double effect.

lawlolawl

I've got to say, Euthanasia is an odd name for an album, posthumous or otherwise.

shar01

shar01 wrote: »

"hello euthanasia, goodbye granny".

I say this to my granny all the time. Keeps her on her toes.

ahnowbrowncow

Candie wrote: »

I say this to my granny all the time. Keeps her on her toes.

What if she gets you first :eek:

ahnowbrowncow

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

What if she gets you first :eek:

Believe me, I'm way more scared of my Gran than she is of me.

PowerToWait

seamus wrote: »

This is one of the big open secrets of the medical world.

We already euthanize terminally ill patients, we just do it slowly.


Everyone knows it...

I have to say it's the first I've heard of it.

tipptom

seamus wrote: »

This is one of the big open secrets of the medical world.

We already euthanize terminally ill patients, we just do it slowly. Large doses of painkillers medication over a number of days/weeks to end their life rather than one huge life-ending dose.

When doctors talk of making a dying person comfortable, that's the coded speech for ending their life by over-prescribing painkillers.

Everyone knows it, yet some like to pretend that euthanasia is some big taboo subject.

Does large doses of painkillers really speed up death?


Would be interesting to know from medical experts in this field how fast this speeds up the process if true.


It would certainly bring something else to the debate if it could be proved to be a rapid process.

PucaMama

seamus wrote: »

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Palliative Care for terminal cancer patients speeds up the process of the final ravages of cancer. Heroin (Medically approved) has been used in such care in both the States and Britain. Kill the pain and send the sufferer on their way.

This is one of the big open secrets of the medical world.

We already euthanize terminally ill patients, we just do it slowly. Large doses of painkillers medication over a number of days/weeks to end their life rather than one huge life-ending dose.

When doctors talk of making a dying person comfortable, that's the coded speech for ending their life by over-prescribing painkillers.

Everyone knows it, yet some like to pretend that euthanasia is some big taboo subject.

That's a disgusting accusation to make, and you are saying it not only about the doctors prescribing them, but the nurses administering the pain relief.
Have you ever cared for someone's dying family member? I'm guessing not.

gctest50

PucaMama wrote: »

That's a disgusting accusation to make, and you are saying it not only about the doctors prescribing them, but the nurses administering the pain relief.
Have you ever cared for someone's dying family member? I'm guessing not.

The only thing wrong with it is when someone is dying, the doctor / nurse can't hose in something that would end the patients life in minutes instead of days / weeks even if the patient themselves request it ( before they become unwell )

maybe €30 for 15grams of pentobarbital before anyone starts on about cost

Pickpocket

GLaDOS wrote: »

You could argue it was suspicious he died right after his album came out

You hear stories all the time of terminally ill people finally dying after being reunited with a loved one, or after their child's wedding or some other event they'd been holding on for. Maybe it's the same with Bowie. Or perhaps something more measurable, such as stopping his medication when work on the album was complete.

I must admit that this whole conversation is slightly distasteful, but he was a very enigmatic figure and for better or worse this type of stuff will forever surround him. The man was a mystery hiding in plain sight.

tipptom

I thought you were talking about David Gest!

Pickpocket

PucaMama wrote: »

That's a disgusting accusation to make, and you are saying it not only about the doctors prescribing them, but the nurses administering the pain relief.
Have you ever cared for someone's dying family member? I'm guessing not.

It's called double-effect. It happens. Pick up any book on medial ethics and bring yourself up to speed.

Pickpocket

Pickpocket wrote: »

It's called double-effect. It happens. Pick up any book on medial ethics and bring yourself up to speed.

The intention is to relieve pain, even if the secondary effect is to hasten the end. The intention is not to kill someone.

PucaMama

Pickpocket wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

That's a disgusting accusation to make, and you are saying it not only about the doctors prescribing them, but the nurses administering the pain relief.
Have you ever cared for someone's dying family member? I'm guessing not.

It's called double-effect. It happens. Pick up any book on medial ethics and bring yourself up to speed.

There isn't no intention or will to kill during palliative care it's to make the patient comfortable

Dolbert

PucaMama wrote: »

That's a disgusting accusation to make, and you are saying it not only about the doctors prescribing them, but the nurses administering the pain relief.
Have you ever cared for someone's dying family member? I'm guessing not.

I have, and it's exactly what happens. Nobody is saying that doctors go around overdosing people on their deathbeds, rather that as pain from cancer increases, so do the meds which often have the effect of shortening the patients final days. Anyone who's sat with a loved one, who's drifting in and out of consciousness and moaning in pain, does not object to anything that can make the inevitable more comfortable.

Dolbert

Dolbert wrote: »

I have, and it's exactly what happens. Nobody is saying that doctors go around overdosing people on their deathbeds, rather that as pain from cancer increases, so do the meds which often have the effect of shortening the patients final days. Anyone who's sat with a loved one, who's drifting in and out of consciousness and moaning in pain, does not object to anything that can make the inevitable more comfortable.

I think she was more riled by the accusation of doctors setting out to kill their patients under the guise of pain relief.

The hastening of the end is sometimes a consequence of adequate pain relief at the end of life. And a completely different thing to setting out to end someones life.

PucaMama

Dolbert wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

That's a disgusting accusation to make, and you are saying it not only about the doctors prescribing them, but the nurses administering the pain relief.
Have you ever cared for someone's dying family member? I'm guessing not.

I have, and it's exactly what happens. Nobody is saying that doctors go around overdosing people on their deathbeds, rather that as pain from cancer increases, so do the meds which often have the effect of shortening the patients final days. Anyone who's sat with a loved one, who's drifting in and out of consciousness and moaning in pain, does not object to anything that can make the inevitable more comfortable.

I feel it is being implied that the doctors are doing it on purpose.

But I agree with euthanasia where people are dieing in pain. And can think for themselves.

gctest50

Candie wrote: »

The intention is to relieve pain, even if the secondary effect is to hasten the end. The intention is not to kill someone.

That needs to change - when someone is diagnosed with a terminal illness, they should be able to select what they want when the time gets near (without travelling to Switzerland ) :

A) Swift exit after you've said your goodbyes etc

Drag on for days/weeks of misery

If they are not given both options - it all looks like the doctors/nurses and management are just trying to squeeze the very last euro out of the terminally ill and/or their families

Conor Bourke

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Palliative Care for terminal cancer patients speeds up the process of the final ravages of cancer. Heroin (Medically approved) has been used in such care in both the States and Britain. Kill the pain and send the sufferer on their way.

The aim of palliative care is NOT to speed up death.

Morphine and other similar opiates are used to manage distressing symptoms such as pain or breathlessness but it is NEVER administered with the aim of ending the persons life.

Conor Bourke

seamus wrote: »

This is one of the big open secrets of the medical world.

We already euthanize terminally ill patients, we just do it slowly. Large doses of painkillers medication over a number of days/weeks to end their life rather than one huge life-ending dose.

When doctors talk of making a dying person comfortable, that's the coded speech for ending their life by over-prescribing painkillers.

Everyone knows it, yet some like to pretend that euthanasia is some big taboo subject.

You are completely and entirely wrong, or else you've met some very poorly skilled palliative care practitioners.

Pickpocket

Candie wrote: »

The intention is to relieve pain, even if the secondary effect is to hasten the end.

Well that's exactly what double-effect is and that's why I referred to that specific 'doctrine'

Doctor's treat the pain knowing full well that it will result in death. That happens. That's all I was saying. My apologies if I appeared to suggest that doctor's intentionally kill patients. That wasn't my intention.

Conor Bourke

Pickpocket wrote: »

It's called double-effect. It happens. Pick up any book on medial ethics and bring yourself up to speed.

Opiates are used safely and effectively at plenty large doses (along with plenty of other non-opioid analgesics) under the supervision of skilled palliative care professionals who titrate the doses accordingly for many many people in the months and sometimes years before their death, and this allows people to live their lives as normally as possible.

The common misconception that "it's the morphine that kills ya" simply isn't true.

gctest50

Candie wrote: »

I think she was more riled by the accusation of doctors setting out to kill their patients under the guise of pain relief.

The hastening of the end is sometimes a consequence of adequate pain relief at the end of life. And a completely different thing to setting out to end someones life.

Candie wrote: »

............. setting out to kill their patients ......

Setting out ? Between doctors and nurses it's a slaughterfest :

Medical error—the third leading cause of death in the US

http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139

Whispered

Terry Pratchett did a documentary called "Choosing to Die". Well worth a watch. It was available on youtube but I looked there and could only find clips. One of the most emotional things I've ever seen and really cemented my view on euthanasia.

Conor Bourke

Pickpocket wrote: »

Well that's exactly what double-effect is and that's why I referred to that specific 'doctrine'

Doctor's treat the pain knowing full well that it will result in death. That happens. That's all I was saying. My apologies if I appeared to suggest that doctor's intentionally kill patients. That wasn't my intention.

Double effect only refers to the point when a person is actively dying but still experiencing unpleasant symptoms and so requires a dose of medication to ease the symptom.

People with incurable illnesses live for months and years on remarkably high doses of morphine (or Oxycodone, hydromorphone and other similar opioids analgesics) under the careful supervision on palliative care teams

gctest50

gctest50 wrote: »

Setting out ? Between doctors and nurses it's a slaughterfest :

Nothing to do with the accusation that doctors and nurses euthanize people.

hannible the cannible

Candie wrote: »

Dolbert wrote: »

I have, and it's exactly what happens. Nobody is saying that doctors go around overdosing people on their deathbeds, rather that as pain from cancer increases, so do the meds which often have the effect of shortening the patients final days. Anyone who's sat with a loved one, who's drifting in and out of consciousness and moaning in pain, does not object to anything that can make the inevitable more comfortable.

I think she was more riled by the accusation of doctors setting out to kill their patients under the guise of pain relief.

The hastening of the end is sometimes a consequence of adequate pain relief at the end of life. And a completely different thing to setting out to end someones life.

You're both saying the same thing essentially , fair enough they don't intentionally kill the patient but over prescription of pain medication will inevitably lead to death and a doctor is aware of this , it's a means to an end and it works

Pickpocket

I'm out of my depth. Time to worm my way back over to the Playstation thread.

Conor Bourke

hannible the cannible wrote: »

You're both saying the same thing essentially , fair enough they don't intentionally kill the patient but over prescription of pain medication will inevitably lead to death and a doctor is aware of this , it's a means to an end and it works

That doesn't happen though. That kind of attitude is completely at odds with the very definition of palliative care and there are few, if any doctors out there who would dare to risk their registration by prescribing opiates in such a slap-dash manner.

If anything, many people suffering from terminal illness live with sub-optimal pain management due to the reluctance of doctors to prescribe large doses of opioids.

Conor Bourke

Research has shown that people who receive early palliative care often live for longer.

Among patients with metastatic non–small-cell lung cancer, early palliative care led to significant improvements in both quality of life and mood. As compared with patients receiving standard care, patients receiving early palliative care had less aggressive care at the end of life but longer survival.

Temel et al, New England Journal of Medicine 2010.

seenitall

There is definitely a rumour now that he went, ahem, at the time of his own choosing. Here isn't the first I have read it. Whether it's true, or not, who knows.

There is another rumour connected to his death as well, but I won't be passing it on. It is not pleasant and I think it's disrespectful to be spreading these kind of things about, unless substantiated (i.e. not rumours).

paralysed

This is a photo of him 2 days before his death (so I'm told), and he looked fine. I wasn't aware this info was made public.

http://floodmagazine.com/30357/fantastic-voyage-the-supernova-departure-of-david-bowie/

The man continues to astound me. His later material was far better. Fantastic songs I've heard post death:

Boss of Me,
Days,
Isn't It Evening,
God Bless the Girl,
Strangers When We Meet