Should hauliers be allowed to use green diesel?

Commotion Ocean

Farmers are allowed to use it in their tractors, granted, the tractor must not be capable of driving faster than 50km/h.

I think the restrictions should be lifted and all farm machinery, and hauliers should be able to use green diesel.

Haulage will become cheaper, therefore goods will be cheaper, shops will lower prices people will spend more money and more people will be employed.

Why is it only farmers who get the perk of cheap diesel when there are other sectors of the economy that are deserving of it too?

Ted111

I'd have no truck with that.

Nekarsulm

Green Diesel should be abolished altogether. And in a reciprocal move, Red diesel in NI should also be dispensed with. At a stroke, you remove the entire criminal process of "washing" diesel and the resulting loss es to the Revenue, and more importantly, the motorist unfortunate enough to have their cars injection system ruined .
Bring in a system whereby current legitimate users of both red and green get a rebate on the taxes paid on "White" diesel that they buy for off road vehicles.
In Border counties, it is safer to use Green than white, as you know its not laced with sulphuric acid. (as some "white" stuff peddled by allies of Slab Murphy is).
Regarding Road transport users, every single thing we buy is moved by truck. A reduction in diesel taxes across the board would be of immense help. It could easily happen, given a tiny bit of political will. After all, Road Fund tax was slashed on trucks last year, as thousands of trucks were being registered in the UK, and indeed, Romania, poland etc.

Jimmy Garlic

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Green Diesel should be abolished altogether. And in a reciprocal move, Red diesel in NI should also be dispensed with. At a stroke, you remove the entire criminal process of "washing" diesel and the resulting loss es to the Revenue, and more importantly, the motorist unfortunate enough to have their cars injection system ruined .
Bring in a system whereby current legitimate users of both red and green get a rebate on the taxes paid on White" diesel thite"hat they buy for off road vehicles.
In Border counties, it is safer to use Green than white, as you know its not laced with sulphuric acid. (as some "white" stuff peddled by allies of Slab Murphy is).

Silly idea. All you would be doing is making it easier for those already in the business of selling dodgy diesel. All that would happen is the washing process would be taken out of the loop. How would you police how much of the stuff people buy and claim rebates for? How would you stop every every farmer in the country and all their friends and relations filling up their cars jeeps and vans straight from the farm tank?

Ted111

There's a real fixation with raising tax off motor transport.
You have VRT which is a colossal tax.
VAT on the car. NCT which everyone knows is a scam revenue exercise.
Then the bulk of the cost of any fuel is again tax to the govt.
And not forgetting motor tax. And road tolls.

Nekarsulm

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Silly idea. All you would be doing is making it easier for those already in the business of selling dodgy diesel. All that would happen is the washing process would be taken out of the loop. How would you police how much of the stuff people buy and claim rebates for? How would you stop every every farmer in the country and all their friends and relations filling up their cars jeeps and vans straight from the farm tank?

So the washing process is gone. How is that bad for the motorist? It relies on access to a cheaper "coloured " product to process into a white "looking" liquid. How do criminals make money from dodgy diesel when there is no financial gain? You have removed the "Washed" stuff from the market at a stroke of a pen.
farmers and other off road users (forestry harvesters, agri contractors, fishing boats etc) buy by cheque or card. They have to have reciepts for their accounts. So it is a simple process to prove how much green you have been buying each month. Any anomaly outside the scope of business expansion would immediately be flagged by Revenue.

Del2005

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Silly idea. All you would be doing is making it easier for those already in the business of selling dodgy diesel. All that would happen is the washing process would be taken out of the loop. How would you police how much of the stuff people buy and claim rebates for? How would you stop every every farmer in the country and all their friends and relations filling up their cars jeeps and vans straight from the farm tank?

Any option that doesn't result in hundreds of gallons of toxic chemicals being dumped around the countryside is better than the current situation.

Make them supply odometer readings for the vehicles that they are claiming the rebate on. We've computing power that is unbelievable, so good that a shop knows that there's a pregnancy in the home before anyone else, so setting it up to track diesel usage isn't that hard.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-incredible-story-of-how-target-exposed-a-teeon-girls-pregnancy-2012-2?IR=T

Edit...
Just to ad. We import all our fuel, tracking where it goes isn't hard and would remove the washed diesel in no time.

K.Flyer

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Silly idea. All you would be doing is making it easier for those already in the business of selling dodgy diesel. All that would happen is the washing process would be taken out of the loop. How would you police how much of the stuff people buy and claim rebates for? How would you stop every every farmer in the country and all their friends and relations filling up their cars jeeps and vans straight from the farm tank?

I dont think that it would happen on any grand scale that the loss would outstrip the gains on eliminating of the washed diesel racket.
Presuming farmers offset their farm diesel as an expense and probably have an average monthly usage, then any sudden and unexplained increase would raise a red flag with revenue.

Nekarsulm

I had the injector pump on my jeep seize and need replacing, and the same week the car also ground to a halt. Washed shyte diesel being peddled by ex terrorists.
Over a thousand euro. If I had a new car or jeep, it could have run into multiples of that.
Govnt. afraid of "Upsetting the Peace process" and Customs and Excise just afraid.

Jimmy Garlic

K.Flyer wrote: »

I dont think that it would happen on any grand scale that the loss would outstrip the gains on eliminating of the washed diesel racket.
Presuming farmers offset their farm diesel as an expense and probably have an average monthly usage, then any sudden and unexplained increase would raise a red flag with revenue.

There is no average monthly usage of diesel in farming. It is a seasonal, weather dependent occupation. One month you could use a load of diesel and the next month you might use a fraction of that. It would be absolutely impossible to keep tabs on as there is no way of knowing what is normal usage and what isn't.

gctest50

Just do it yearly then

blindside88

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

There is no average monthly usage of diesel in farming. It is a seasonal, weather dependent occupation. One month you could use a load of diesel and the next month you might use a fraction of that. It would be absolutely impossible to keep tabs on as there is no way of knowing what is normal usage and what isn't.

Use a yearly measure then and have farmers claim it back as a tax rebate at the end of the year. Allow the rebate as a direct correlation to farm turnover, that'd give a fairly accurate figure. It wouldn't be ideal but it'd be better than the current system. A similar type system could then be rolled out to hauliers

Nekarsulm

So my monthly receipts for green diesel are a work of fiction? If similar systems can work for VAT registered people, why not everyone?

Skylinehead

Del2005 wrote: »

Make them supply odometer readings for the vehicles that they are claiming the rebate on. We've computing power that is unbelievable, so good that a shop knows that there's a pregnancy in the home before anyone else, so setting it up to track diesel usage isn't that hard.

Yeah you'll struggle to get an odometer reading for a Massey 65

end of the road

dfeo wrote: »

Farmers are allowed to use it in their tractors, granted, the tractor must not be capable of driving faster than 50km/h.

I think the restrictions should be lifted and all farm machinery, and hauliers should be able to use green diesel.

Haulage will become cheaper, therefore goods will be cheaper, shops will lower prices people will spend more money and more people will be employed.

Why is it only farmers who get the perk of cheap diesel when there are other sectors of the economy that are deserving of it too?

you think? i say not a chance would prices come down, at least not in the case of shops.
the hauliers get enough as it is

Del2005

Skylinehead wrote: »

Yeah you'll struggle to get an odometer reading for a Massey 65

They'll either have to retro fit an hour meter or pay full price for diesel. A few antique tractors shouldn't stop us killing the revenue stream for scumbags who don't care about this country.

wonski

dfeo wrote: »

Farmers are allowed to use it in their tractors, granted, the tractor must not be capable of driving faster than 50km/h.

I think the restrictions should be lifted and all farm machinery, and hauliers should be able to use green diesel.

Haulage will become cheaper, therefore goods will be cheaper, shops will lower prices people will spend more money and more people will be employed.

Why is it only farmers who get the perk of cheap diesel when there are other sectors of the economy that are deserving of it too?

Motor tax for trucks has been reduced significantly last year, I didn't notice any savings from that. Neither from lower fuel prices.

Farmers are being given privileges to protect Irish market. I like to see a lot of Irish vegetables and meat in stores here, as soon as their profitability drops farmers from Spain, Holland and other countries will serve Ireland to make supermarket's margins more acceptable

Del2005

end of the road wrote: »

you think? i say not a chance would prices come down, at least not in the case of shops.
the hauliers get enough as it is

There's a slim chance that they might actually pay the drivers at least minimum wage if they got a discount on fuel, as at the moment the drivers are the ones suffering.

Glass fused light

Del2005 wrote: »

They'll either have to retro fit an hour meter or pay full price for diesel. A few antique tractors shouldn't stop us killing the revenue stream for scumbags who don't care about this country.

What's with the mileage/km
Do it the same way as vat by retained receipt, log on to revenue fill in gross or net amount, click to confirm amount is correct and bank account has not changed and wait for the refund or it's offset against other tax due.
Once the revenue have a few months on everyone, the statistical checks would begin to flag outliers.
Then it's random audit same as any other tax.


If revenue want to get fancy have fill in box for the supplier and track it through a garage too.

topmanamillion

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Green Diesel should be abolished altogether. And in a reciprocal move, Red diesel in NI should also be dispensed with. At a stroke, you remove the entire criminal process of "washing" diesel and the resulting loss es to the Revenue, and more importantly, the motorist unfortunate enough to have their cars injection system ruined .
Bring in a system whereby current legitimate users of both red and green get a rebate on the taxes paid on "White" diesel that they buy for off road vehicles.
In Border counties, it is safer to use Green than white, as you know its not laced with sulphuric acid. (as some "white" stuff peddled by allies of Slab Murphy is).
Regarding Road transport users, every single thing we buy is moved by truck. A reduction in diesel taxes across the board would be of immense help. It could easily happen, given a tiny bit of political will. After all, Road Fund tax was slashed on trucks last year, as thousands of trucks were being registered in the UK, and indeed, Romania, poland etc.

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Silly idea. All you would be doing is making it easier for those already in the business of selling dodgy diesel. All that would happen is the washing process would be taken out of the loop. How would you police how much of the stuff people buy and claim rebates for? How would you stop every every farmer in the country and all their friends and relations filling up their cars jeeps and vans straight from the farm tank?

I disagree I think it's a great idea.
You wouldn't need to police anything. Simply devise a system where farmers can avail of rebates based on farm size/livestock numbers. Information that's already held by the Department of agriculture.
Yearly odometer readings could be given to avail of extra rebate for farmers who drive their tractors large distances between different holdings.

Obviously they would have to provide insurance/tax certs to prove their tractors are in use.
But where there is a will there is a way.

As the OP pointed out, it would kill diesel laundering in one swoop.

end of the road

Del2005 wrote: »

There's a slim chance that they might actually pay the drivers at least minimum wage if they got a discount on fuel, as at the moment the drivers are the ones suffering.

the minimum wage is the minimum legal wage that one is allowed to pay and anything under that is illegal i thought. if that is the case and a haulier isn't paying drivers the minimum wage then their licence should be stripped and said haulier banned from holding a licence and operating indefinitely.
if not then even if we allowed the hauliers to use green diesel then i'm afraid the wage situation won't be changing.

BorneTobyWilde

Haulage firms get vat returned on all their diesel used. The billions of litres the private individuals use generate millions in vat as that vat is never claimed on. Most people don't even keep diesel receipts.

topmanamillion

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Haulage firms get vat returned on all their diesel used. The billions of litres the private individuals use generate millions in vat as that vat is never claimed on. Most people don't even keep diesel receipts.

Private individuals aren't entitled to auto fuel rebate.

Jimmy Garlic

topmanamillion wrote: »

I disagree I think it's a great idea.
You wouldn't need to police anything. Simply devise a system where farmers can avail of rebates based on farm size/livestock numbers. Information that's already held by the Department of agriculture.
Yearly odometer readings could be given to avail of extra rebate for farmers who drive their tractors large distances between different holdings.

Obviously they would have to provide insurance/tax certs to prove their tractors are in use.
But where there is a will there is a way.

As the OP pointed out, it would kill diesel laundering in one swoop.

The second part of my post pointed out that a lot of farmers would be filling up their road vehicles with rebated diesel. I'd do it myself because there is absolutely no way I could be caught doing it. Some farmers might even turn it into an earner by selling to others for less than the forecourt price, but more than the rebated price. It would be impossible to stop that from happening too.

As a part time farmer myself I know that my own diesel usage varies greatly not only from month to month, but from year to year. This year I have been cutting back hedges so I have used a lot more diesel this year than I did last year. I can't see how it would work at all even if revenue wanted to take on the colossal workload that would come with overseeing such a complicated system that could be so easily fiddled with.

Nekarsulm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I had the injector pump on my jeep seize and need replacing, and the same week the car also ground to a halt. Washed shyte diesel being peddled by ex terrorists.
Over a thousand euro. If I had a new car or jeep, it could have run into multiples of that.
Govnt. afraid of "Upsetting the Peace process" and Customs and Excise just afraid.

Agreed. Nobody in a position to do anything is actually prepared to roll up their sleeves and solve problems.

For interest, what kind of garage did you get your bad fuel in?

Nekarsulm

Local filling station in small Cavan town. As usual, after the fact, other people can tell you "I never buy diesel there, x,y,z had to get new injectors/pump etc"
As there is seemingly only a couple of cent profit in selling a litre of fuel, there is the temptation to take a tankerful of illegal stuff.
A lot of people complained "up the line" and mysteriously, the firm closed down suddenly.
Around here, the general consensus is that only TOP oil is safe to use.

_Brian

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Local filling station in small Cavan town. As usual, after the fact, other people can tell you "I never buy diesel there, x,y,z had to get new injectors/pump etc"
As there is seemingly only a couple of cent profit in selling a litre of fuel, there is the temptation to take a tankerful of illegal stuff.
A lot of people complained "up the line" and mysteriously, the firm closed down suddenly.
Around here, the general consensus is that only TOP oil is safe to use.

Applegreen diesel is good. Jeep runs better on it.

nice_guy80

so the whole system is in place just so farmers have cheaper diesel?

oppenheimer1

I thought fuel laundering had been largely eliminated with the introduction of the new diesel marker dye?

demanufactured

_Brian wrote: »

Applegreen diesel is good. Jeep runs better on it.

All name brand diesel is good....all comes from the same place.

No name filling stations are the ones to avoid.

freedominacup

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

The second part of my post pointed out that a lot of farmers would be filling up their road vehicles with rebated diesel. I'd do it myself because there is absolutely no way I could be caught doing it. Some farmers might even turn it into an earner by selling to others for less than the forecourt price, but more than the rebated price. It would be impossible to stop that from happening too.

As a part time farmer myself I know that my own diesel usage varies greatly not only from month to month, but from year to year. This year I have been cutting back hedges so I have used a lot more diesel this year than I did last year. I can't see how it would work at all even if revenue wanted to take on the colossal workload that would come with overseeing such a complicated system that could be so easily fiddled with.

Revenue never gave anything away easily. You would start on the basis of last year's green diesel dockets. Anything above that usage you would need to show cause for the increase. Add 50 milking cows or 75 acres of grain for e.g. easy to show reason for increase. Planning permission for new buildings and you did a lot of your own hauling, no problem this year, next year you'll be back on 2015 allowance. The current system is very straightforward for farmers administratively but a nightmare for others to police. Personally anything that puts a crimp in the activities of former provos is ok by me.

Winterlong

demanufactured wrote: »

All name brand diesel is good....all comes from the same place.

No name filling stations are the ones to avoid.

Would agree with that. The brand name filling stations tend to look after their gear better than the no name ones.
Dont want to be adding to the sludge in my tank.

goose2005

Ted111 wrote: »

There's a real fixation with raising tax off motor transport.
You have VRT which is a colossal tax.
VAT on the car. NCT which everyone knows is a scam revenue exercise.
Then the bulk of the cost of any fuel is again tax to the govt.
And not forgetting motor tax. And road tolls.

yes, it's almost as if building and maintaning road infrastructure costs an enormous amount and driving does huge environmental damage

Jimmy Garlic

freedominacup wrote: »

Revenue never gave anything away easily. You would start on the basis of last year's green diesel dockets. Anything above that usage you would need to show cause for the increase. Add 50 milking cows or 75 acres of grain for e.g. easy to show reason for increase. Planning permission for new buildings and you did a lot of your own hauling, no problem this year, next year you'll be back on 2015 allowance. The current system is very straightforward for farmers administratively but a nightmare for others to police. Personally anything that puts a crimp in the activities of former provos is ok by me.

As if we don't have enough paperwork. Still nobody has yet explained how farmers would be prevented from using rebated white diesel in road vehicles, or even selling it on for profit. If revenue wanted to hit the green diesel washing industry they would hit the stations that sell the stuff and put them out of business, they are not that hard to find. That would solve the problem without imposing some convoluted rebate system that would be incredibly easy to fiddle.

Ted111

goose2005 wrote: »

yes, it's almost as if building and maintaning road infrastructure costs an enormous amount and driving does huge environmental damage

ah...it's all spent on the environment. We'll all be saved. Praise mother earth.

Nekarsulm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Green Diesel should be abolished altogether. And in a reciprocal move, Red diesel in NI should also be dispensed with. At a stroke, you remove the entire criminal process of "washing" diesel and the resulting loss es to the Revenue, and more importantly, the motorist unfortunate enough to have their cars injection system ruined .
Bring in a system whereby current legitimate users of both red and green get a rebate on the taxes paid on "White" diesel that they buy for off road vehicles.
In Border counties, it is safer to use Green than white, as you know its not laced with sulphuric acid. (as some "white" stuff peddled by allies of Slab Murphy is).
Regarding Road transport users, every single thing we buy is moved by truck. A reduction in diesel taxes across the board would be of immense help. It could easily happen, given a tiny bit of political will. After all, Road Fund tax was slashed on trucks last year, as thousands of trucks were being registered in the UK, and indeed, Romania, poland etc.

I hope they change it, it will mean cheaper:D diesel for the cars as all the diesel use in the house will be going down as "agri use" and be claimed back

blindside88 wrote: »

Use a yearly measure then and have farmers claim it back as a tax rebate at the end of the year. Allow the rebate as a direct correlation to farm turnover, that'd give a fairly accurate figure. It wouldn't be ideal but it'd be better than the current system. A similar type system could then be rolled out to hauliers

None of this will work, turnover and fuel usage are unrelated in farming. If it happened it would have to be easy to do and none of this keeping track of things closely.

Sure they don't track the usage of farmers or other businesses registered for vat very closely in their usage now. Any farmer and most small business that I know claim the vat back on the diesel used in all the family vehicles as well as the company ones even if they never do a single business mile. Its simply not tracked so why would it be any different if the excise was being reclaimed.

Glass fused light wrote: »

What's with the mileage/km
Do it the same way as vat by retained receipt, log on to revenue fill in gross or net amount, click to confirm amount is correct and bank account has not changed and wait for the refund or it's offset against other tax due.
Once the revenue have a few months on everyone, the statistical checks would begin to flag outliers.
Then it's random audit same as any other tax.


If revenue want to get fancy have fill in box for the supplier and track it through a garage too.

See above, from what I can see there is little or no tracking of the vat reclaimed on diesel.

simonw

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

As if we don't have enough paperwork. Still nobody has yet explained how farmers would be prevented from using rebated white diesel in road vehicles, or even selling it on for profit. If revenue wanted to hit the green diesel washing industry they would hit the stations that sell the stuff and put them out of business, they are not that hard to find. That would solve the problem without imposing some convoluted rebate system that would be incredibly easy to fiddle.

Have an annual allowance for rebate based on X litres per acre

simonw

simonw wrote: »

Have an annual allowance for rebate based on X litres per acre

But acres or stock or anything like that does not necessarily relate to diesel usage.

Cossax

Can we just have everyone use unsubsidised diesel or petrol and not have to worry about allowances per acre or any of that?
Why should some be entitled to subsidised fuel and others not?

AvBBrother

No, hauliers should not be allowed to use green diesel.

Jimmy Garlic

Cossax wrote: »

Can we just have everyone use unsubsidised diesel or petrol and not have to worry about allowances per acre or any of that?
Why should some be entitled to subsidised fuel and others not?

It isn't subsidised. It has a lesser rate of tax. Would you fancy a huge hike in your shopping bill?

gctest50

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

It isn't subsidised. It has a lesser rate of tax. Would you fancy a huge hike in your shopping bill?

How much agri-diesel would you use roughly on a farm ?

2 -- 2.5 litres/tonne for a harvester sorta thing ?

Charles Babbage

Fuel washing is greatly reduced since they introduced the new marker. But. as proposed, the cure is to have only one type of diesel, farmers could then be given a rebate related to the size of their farm through a mechanism similar to other agri grants. I think the problem is the use of diesel for heating etc.

Galwayguy35

Winterlong wrote: »

Would agree with that. The brand name filling stations tend to look after their gear better than the no name ones.
Dont want to be adding to the sludge in my tank.

+1

Started going to a no name brand filling station myself a few years ago because it was 10 c cheaper than the others, saving 10 c worked out very expensive for me because it was washed diesel.

Lesson learned.

Walter2016

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Fuel washing is greatly reduced since they introduced the new marker..

According to customs on both sides of the border, its gone completely though they keep a close eye in case they find a way of getting the new marker out.

Most issues are now just drivers using marked diesel and again their report says this has reduced considerably due to the heavy on the spot penalties.

For hauliers, they get the vat back, so current price of diesel is about 90c. Of course they'd like reduced duty - but at the end of the day the cost comes from some other tax

Alf Stewart.

There already is a rebate scheme on diesel on offer for the haulage industry.

Jimmy Garlic

gctest50 wrote: »

How much agri-diesel would you use roughly on a farm ?

2 -- 2.5 litres/tonne for a harvester sorta thing ?

Depends on what you are doing. Even the weather will affect diesel usage figures. You will use more diesel harvesting a hilly field than you will a flat one. No two farms are the same in terms of diesel usage, different lays of land, different styles of work.