Is Repair Shop Liable For Damage They (Probably) Caused?

slickboy

Hi,

I dropped my iPhone 6 in water a few weeks back. The phone was submerged in water for approximately two minutes before I realised it but as soon as I did, I switched the phone-off, popped it into a bag of rice (standard practice) and rushed it straight over to the local repair shop (I don't have any gadget insurance or AppleCare so it was my only option really).

The repair shop had the phone for about a week but in the end up they came back to me and said that the speaker and microphone wouldn't work. When I pushed the store employee who worked on the phone for more details about what damage was caused and why the speaker and microphone wouldn't work, he was very nervous and sketchy when it came to specific details (I have a basic working knowledge of electronics and he was talking nonsense in my opinion). Because the company were not able to return my phone to me in working order, they did not charge anything for the work performed.

I sought a second opinion on the matter from another company and they informed me that the reason the microphone and speaker would not work was because the audio processor in the phone had been destroyed due to exposure to a direct source of heat (he dismantled the phone and showed me the damage himself). In his opinion, the repair shop opened the phone up and dried it from the inside using a hair dryer.

To replace the processor is approximately €500. Given that the phone cost €600, it obviously makes more sense to purchase a brand new phone instead of replacing the processor (plus labour costs).

Given that I - nor the person whom I sought a second opinion from - did not apply any heat to the device - the next logical conclusion is that the repair shop were responsible for this.

I am considering seeking legal action on the matter; however I know it is a situation of my word (and the other companies word) against the repair shops word.

Does the repair shop have a case to answer for here, i.e. replacing the broken device, or am I on a hiding to nothing?

Any help is much appreciated.

L1011

It would be very hard, even with the other opinion, to show that the processor was not damaged by water immersion or by starches from the rice - it may "standard practice" but it damages the phone, rather than helping.

drunkmonkey

2 minutes is enough to goose it..there is no iPhone part that costs 500.
Is the screen working perfect, you could sell it for parts.
Your at nothing claiming for a new phone as it wasn't working and and had been submerged in water, you could see would the repair shop do you some kind of deal, they may have a main board they could put in it out of another one they scrapped.

Are you sure it's not the pins in the headphone socket it happens when the phone gets into water. It can cause audio problems you need to do a bit of fiddling with a cotton bud to get it working, google it.

Xterminator

OP - you cant break the phone if its already broken.

your claim would be that they further damaged your already water damaged phone.

what value would you place on a water damaged phone, as opposed to your phone the way it is now? because at best you would only be claiming the difference between the two. Because that is what you have (potentially) lost. The residual value of the phone is is for parts, and what you would get for that has not changed much, if any.

I feel no-one in their right mind would expect the repair shop to bear the cost of repairing your phone to working order, because they did not receive it in working order.

Cuddlesworth

slickboy wrote: »

I sought a second opinion on the matter from another company and they informed me that the reason the microphone and speaker would not work was because the audio processor in the phone had been destroyed due to exposure to a direct source of heat (he dismantled the phone and showed me the damage himself). In his opinion, the repair shop opened the phone up and dried it from the inside using a hair dryer.

A hairdryer wouldn't do anything to a circuit board or to the chips so both "repair" guys are plonkers. Besides its uneconomical to try repair those phones since you can't get parts for them.

sbsquarepants

You dropped your sensitive electronic device in water, it was submerged for 2 full minutes, and your "basic working knowledge of electronics" tells you that the repair shop broke it, so you're considering legal action?

Eh, might be time for a refresher course:D

Cabaal

Any small claims court claim will fail here, you're assigning basically full value to an already seriously damaged item.

You also have no evidence that what you gave to the shop was undamaged (processor wise)

stronglikebull

slickboy wrote: »

I sought a second opinion on the matter from another company and they informed me that the reason the microphone and speaker would not work was because the audio processor in the phone had been destroyed due to exposure to a direct source of heat (he dismantled the phone and showed me the damage himself). In his opinion, the repair shop opened the phone up and dried it from the inside using a hair dryer.

When you look at the ICs on the phone's board, can you see physical damage to one of them? Does it look bubbled, or frazzled in some way? Something like this? Semiconductor ICs like this are almost always rated for 0-85C, or even -40 to 125C, so there's no way a few minutes under a hair dryer could cause damage to the plastic package. All ICs would be rated for 200-240C for soldering purposes too, so a hair dryer is not going to cause a problem like this.

Working in the semiconductor industry I can tell you that it often only takes as little as a few hundred mA to blow the top off of an IC, and since the LiPo batteries in mobile phones could potentially provide amps of current, this is most likely the cause of physical damage to the IC. Sensitive electronics don't like water and electrical current at the same time.

I think you're going to have to take this one on the chin, and stump up for a new phone.

Dodge

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You dropped your sensitive electronic device in water, it was submerged for 2 full minutes, and your "basic working knowledge of electronics" tells you that the repair shop broke it, so you're considering legal action?

Eh, might be time for a refresher course:D

not to mention

slickboy wrote: »

The phone was submerged in water for approximately two minutes before I realised

he's no idea how long it was underwater for as he can't possible know the starting point before he "realised" it was submerged.

Unlucky slickboy

slickboy

drunkmonkey wrote: »

2 minutes is enough to goose it..there is no iPhone part that costs 500.
Is the screen working perfect, you could sell it for parts.
Your at nothing claiming for a new phone as it wasn't working and and had been submerged in water, you could see would the repair shop do you some kind of deal, they may have a main board they could put in it out of another one they scrapped.

Are you sure it's not the pins in the headphone socket it happens when the phone gets into water. It can cause audio problems you need to do a bit of fiddling with a cotton bud to get it working, google it.

Thanks for your reply drunkmonkey.

Have you any idea how much a replacement logic board would be? The damaged component (audio codec) is built into the logic board so I've been told the whole board needs to be replaced.

Other than the in-ear speaker and microphone, the phone works perfect - its basically a glorified iPod Touch at the minute.

slickboy

Xterminator wrote: »

OP - you cant break the phone if its already broken.

your claim would be that they further damaged your already water damaged phone.

what value would you place on a water damaged phone, as opposed to your phone the way it is now? because at best you would only be claiming the difference between the two. Because that is what you have (potentially) lost. The residual value of the phone is is for parts, and what you would get for that has not changed much, if any.

I feel no-one in their right mind would expect the repair shop to bear the cost of repairing your phone to working order, because they did not receive it in working order.

Hi Xterminator.

The phone wasn't actually broken when I left it into the repair shop. It was still working - I only realised the phone was in water when I heard it ringing (and as soon as I did, I switched the phone off to avoid any damage). I left the phone into the repair ship to have it dried out and to avoid any corrosion.

When I got the phone back, it was still in working condition with the exception that the in-ear speaker and microphone wouldn't work (other than that - everything else worked fine). As it turns out, the audio codec component within the phone had been melted to the point that you can scrape the melted plastic off with a fingernail (hence why the speaker and microphone aren't working).

My second opinion guy (who happens to be an authorised repair person for a number of gadget insurance companies) is of the opinion that the component in question could only have been damaged by the repair shop as the iPhone 6 is designed to prevent water reaching the component which was damaged. In his opinion, the damage could only have occurred after the phone had been dismantled and a significant amount of heat applied to it.

slickboy

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

A hairdryer wouldn't do anything to a circuit board or to the chips so both "repair" guys are plonkers. Besides its uneconomical to try repair those phones since you can't get parts for them.

Cuddlesworth - I'd imagine the repair person was only using a hairdryer as an example. It could just as easily have been left on a radiator or some other source of heat.

As regards your comment about replacement parts, there is no shortage of companies offering spare/replacement iPhone parts for sale. They may not be authorised Apple components, but what they are doing is no different that any scarpyard dealer or exhaust manufacturer in the car industry.

slickboy

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You dropped your sensitive electronic device in water, it was submerged for 2 full minutes, and your "basic working knowledge of electronics" tells you that the repair shop broke it, so you're considering legal action?

Eh, might be time for a refresher course:D

sbsquarepants - Not my conclusion; the conclusion of a trained professional in the area (who also happens to be an authorised repair person for a number of gadget insurance companies).

slickboy

stronglikebull

Working in the semiconductor industry I can tell you that it often only takes as little as a few hundred mA to blow the top off of an IC, and since the LiPo batteries in mobile phones could potentially provide amps of current, this is most likely the cause of physical damage to the IC. Sensitive electronics don't like water and electrical current at the same time.

I think you're going to have to take this one on the chin, and stump up for a new phone.

Its actually the audio code component that's damaged stronglikebull, not the processor (poor choice of words on my part in the original post).

The audio codec does show signs of physical damage (its basically a ball of melted plastic by the look of things).

In your opinion, is it possible that this component could be damaged by the heat emitted from something like a hairdryer or radiator?

My second opinion guy (who happens to be an authorised repair person for a number of gadget insurance companies) is of the opinion that the component in question could only have been damaged by the repair shop as the iPhone 6 is designed to prevent water reaching the component which was damaged. In his opinion, the damage could only have occurred after the phone had been dismantled and a significant amount of heat applied to it.

nhunter100

slickboy wrote:

sbsquarepants - Not my conclusion; the conclusion of a trained professional in the area (who also happens to be an authorised repair person for a number of gadget insurance companies).

OP your options are thus, small claims or chalk it up to experience. Court route would be interested to hear how you get on 99% sure you'll lose always that 1% though. Experience, you broke your phone repair shop couldn't fix it lesson be more careful in future. Take care.

slickboy

Dodge wrote: »

not to mention



he's no idea how long it was underwater for as he can't possible know the starting point before he "realised" it was submerged.

Unlucky slickboy

I threw my phone into the pocket of my gym bag (where there was a leaking water bottle), walked the 100 yards from the gym to my flat, and as soon as I get in the front door the phone rings - trust me, it was two minutes. Phone was turned off immediately and left to repair shop.

slickboy

nhunter100 wrote: »

OP your options are thus, small claims or chalk it up to experience. Court route would be interested to hear how you get on 99% sure you'll lose always that 1% though. Experience, you broke your phone repair shop couldn't fix it lesson be more careful in future. Take care.

I've learnt my lesson nhunter100! I only wish I had known about the second company before I left it with the cowboys from the first company. I'm going to speak with a solicitor on the matter anyway and see what they think.

nhunter100

slickboy wrote:

I dropped my iPhone 6 in water a few weeks back. The phone was submerged in water for approximately two minutes before I realised it but as soon as I did, I switched the phone-off, popped it into a bag of rice (standard practice) and rushed it straight over to the local repair shop (I don't have any gadget insurance or AppleCare so it was my only option really).

So dropping your phone in water has no changed to a leaky water bottle in a gym bag. I hope your feelings weren't hurt when the first repair shout laughed you out door. Changing story and expect to be believed hmm.... doesn't work that way I'm afraid.

sbsquarepants

slickboy wrote: »

sbsquarepants - Not my conclusion; the conclusion of a trained professional in the area (who also happens to be an authorised repair person for a number of gadget insurance companies).

I think you're on a hiding to nothing slickboy. You let the thing fall in water, it's broken - there's no way any court in the world is looking any further than that.
Phones broke, you broke it, buy a new one and be more careful.
Maybe get one of those ones you can drop in the sink when that hot chick from the car rings you:D

slickboy

nhunter100 wrote: »

So dropping your phone in water has no changed to a leaky water bottle in a gym bag. I hope your feelings weren't hurt when the first repair shout laughed you out door. Changing story and expect to be believed hmm.... doesn't work that way I'm afraid.

nhunter100 - the full contents of a 1.5 litre bottle of water spilled into the gym bag pocket - the phone was totally submerged in water.

I was trying to keep the original post as short as possible without boring people with the minor details - hence why I said the phone was 'dropped' in water.

L1011

slickboy wrote: »

Phone was turned off immediately and left to repair shop.

You missed the "dunked in a pile of rice which would leak starches in to the phone, via crevices including the headphone jack" in the middle there.

You gave the repair shop a broken phone, you were given back a broken phone. You've no way of proving where and when any damage happened.

You are wasting your time and money talking to a solicitor. Put their fee towards a new phone. Sony have waterproof ones!

nhunter100

No, not buying it and I doubt a judge or solicitor would either. You broke your own phone suck it up move on . Maybe insure the next one.

Dodge

nhunter100 wrote: »

No, not buying it and I doubt a judge or solicitor would either. You broke your own phone suck it up move on . Maybe insure the next one.

This is the bottom line slickboy. You can try as many acrobatic story flips as you want but there is no way the repair company is liable for not fixing your broken phone. It's just not believable in any way that you gave them a working phone (why look for it to be repaired?).

Time you moved on from this. Don't be clumsy with bottles of water. Don't be throwing expensive phones in bags. Load of lessons to be learned

Cuddlesworth

slickboy wrote: »

Cuddlesworth - I'd imagine the repair person was only using a hairdryer as an example. It could just as easily have been left on a radiator or some other source of heat.

If the radiator had magma going through it, then yeah it might have done something to the board. I don't think you understand the level of heat required to damage a chip.

Water damage leaves minerals and other materials(starch in your case) on the traces. They both corrode the external connections and bridge current in areas where it should not be bridged. This has the effect of blowing specific components, as they get far more power then they are meant to. And in a number of cases, this is done long after the initial soaking of the device because the water itself isn't very conductive.

Plus there isn't any specific part of the iPhone that is designed to not get water onto it, outside the entire internals. So thats lie number 2 from second repair guy.

All authorised repair shops do is open the phone, examine the damage to see if its water and then replace the board or the part that connects to the board. They don't repair anything on the board itself. Being authorised means you have the ability to order and pay for the outrageous prices apple charge for boards.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

slickboy wrote: »

Cuddlesworth - I'd imagine the repair person was only using a hairdryer as an example. It could just as easily have been left on a radiator or some other source of heat.

I think this sums your case up. You have absolutely no idea what caused the damage. Your 'expert' obviously has no idea either.

That would be some radiator to cause damage lime that.

Suck it up and put it down to experience. In the end damaged the phone, you attempted a homemade remedy, then left a broken phone in for a repair.

drunkmonkey

You may be able to get the logic board repaired.
Ring around and see have any of the shops the expertise. They may also be able to replace it.
There's a massive difference in the expertise of the people working in repair shops. You just need to find a good one.

5rtytry56

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There's a massive difference in the expertise of the people working in repair shops. You just need to find a good one.

You need to get lucky.

gctest50

slickboy wrote: »

............

To replace the processor is approximately €500. Given that the phone cost €600, it obviously makes more sense to purchase a brand new phone instead of replacing the processor (plus labour costs).

.....................

Do they kiss you n all for that much ? :P

Iphone 6 is about €210 to make apparently

ssmith6287

gctest50 wrote: »

Do they kiss you n all for that much ? :P

Iphone 6 is about €210 to make apparently

Yeah when your bulk buying parts.

L1011

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Yeah when your bulk buying parts.

Which Apple, as wholesaler of authorised spares, has. They still ensure they make a nice profit on those too.

ssmith6287

Yes but there's a big difference between Apple, an Authorised Repair Centre and a standard repair shop. A repair centre will have qualified staff, they will be listed on the website, they WON'T get parts at the price Apple can get them at. Further more there the fact that this is damage and not a warranty repair means the repairest will not be able to send a faulty and get a replacement, they will also need to purchase the part, charge for labour and make a profit which when your talking about a logic board will be the guts of €500

whippet

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Yes but there's a big difference between Apple, an Authorised Repair Centre and a standard repair shop. A repair centre will have qualified staff, they will be listed on the website, they WON'T get parts at the price Apple can get them at. Further more there the fact that this is damage and not a warranty repair means the repairest will not be able to send a faulty and get a replacement, they will also need to purchase the part, charge for labour and make a profit which when your talking about a logic board will be the guts of €500

just to let it be known .. there is no authorised apple repair centre for iOS devices (iPad or iPhone).

Apple don't repair these devices .. if they are returned with a warranty issue; apple issue a replacement (refurb or new .. but you'd hardly tell the difference) .. you can use the Authorised service centres to do this return for you; but apple do all the back end swaps etc.

If the device is physically damaged / out of warranty Apple can offer a 'repair' which is in effect selling you one of the refurb / warranty swap units. You pay a set fee (€200 - €500 depending on the device) and they will take the damaged one back and issue a replacement. Again .. this can be facilitated at any of their Authorised service agents.

Anyone in ireland offering to repair any Apple iOS device is not doing so as an authorised apple agent and source their parts from wherever they can .. giving a massive variation in quality and cost of such repairs.

With regards to the other apple machines .. authorised service centres do repair them and buy the parts directly from Apple

gctest50

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Yes but there's a big difference between Apple, an Authorised Repair Centre and a standard repair shop. A repair centre will have qualified staff, they will be listed on the website, they WON'T get parts at the price Apple can get them at. Further more there the fact that this is damage and not a warranty repair means the repairest will not be able to send a faulty and get a replacement, they will also need to purchase the part, charge for labour and make a profit which when your talking about a logic board will be the guts of €500

can't be much more than this :

bigpaudge

Best insurance policy I ever got after buying an iPhone

unkel

L1011 wrote: »

Put their fee towards a new phone. Sony have waterproof ones!

The current iPhone is waterproof too. Time for an upgrade for the OP

kirving

slickboy wrote: »

They may not be authorised Apple components, but what they are doing is no different that any scarpyard dealer or exhaust manufacturer in the car industry.

I work in electronic manufacturing and can tell you the levels of rigorous testing every single component on the board undergoes is insane in order to be certified for my particular industry.

The guys in your local repair shop order the cheapest knock off they can from China, and are almost certainly not certified by the manufacturer to work on the device under warranty, and particularly not Apple.