Twitch.tv quality from Gaming PC

TheDoc

Hi all,

So I'm a big Twitch.tv user, constantly have some stream open on my gaming PC. However I've noticed massive quality differences between two PC's in the house.

My Gaming PC is high enough spec, located upstairs, and operates via powerplugs. It gets roughly 50mbps down and 24 mbps up. Twitch streams look "meh" but never sharp or crisp quality. Never 60FPS as advertised and never HD

I've a HTPC downstairs, plugged into the router via ethernet. That is a lower spec machine, but gets 240mbps down and 24mbps up. The streams look gorgeous, 60fps, fully HD, amazing.

So the obvious issue is the powerplugs. I've been humming and haughing for months now about running a cable upstairs, but effort keeps getting the better of me.

Surely 50mbps down is enough to watch Twitch.tv stream in their full quality. Netflix is fine, youtube is fine, just twitch.

Wondering if anyone else experiences this disparity and found a fix.

Robert ninja

To eliminate the possibility of the user agent, browser or player causing it, have you tried using livestreamer?

TheDoc

Robert ninja wrote: »

To eliminate the possibility of the user agent, browser or player causing it, have you tried using livestreamer?

Livestreamer rings a bell, what is it again?

I've tried multiple browsers and things. Chrome was suffering badly the last two weeks with constant lag, so I changed to Firefox and it's much better.

But the quality is pretty **** and definitely not anywhere near 60fps.

mossym

you have the quality settings on twitch set to the same on both pcs right?

also, what is the resolution on your monitor? if it's a 1440p or 4k it's much higher than the resolution on your tv.

if you turn on stats on the stream on both pc's, are the numbers identical?

Zillah

There's no reason PC spec would matter here unless one is absolute junk. It's all about connection speed, and if not connection speed then probably a bug or compatibility issue.

What OS is each machine running?
Is flash up to date?

I've heard twitch is rolling out html5. Any chance one is flash and one is html5?

TheDoc

mossym wrote: »

you have the quality settings on twitch set to the same on both pcs right?

Yes, I always run Source

also, what is the resolution on your monitor? if it's a 1440p or 4k it's much higher than the resolution on your tv.

Monitor and TV are both 1080p

if you turn on stats on the stream on both pc's, are the numbers identical?

What are these stats, wasn't aware of them but will check them out.

TheDoc

Zillah wrote: »

There's no reason PC spec would matter here unless one is absolute junk. It's all about connection speed, and if not connection speed then probably a bug or compatibility issue.

What OS is each machine running?
Is flash up to date?

I've heard twitch is rolling out html5. Any chance one is flash and one is html5?

Yeah it's likly connection, hence I guess the OP outlining the network setup. I'm just baffled my gaming PC struggles so much with a 50mbps down. Should be plenty.

Gaming PC running W10, HTPC running W7.

The HTPC was actually custom built by me for 720p output as I couldn't justify 1080p. So it's lesser spec, yet the quality on Twitch measurably better.

Flash is up to date on both. Granted I never had to do anything with Flash using Chrome as it's handled in browser, HTPC was significantly better.

I've changed my gaming PC to Firefox due to massive lag I was getting last two weeks. Firefox resolved this issue immediately but the quality still poor.

HTPC still using Chrome, wasnt experiencing lag issue.

I've been using the new HTML5 beta fine without issue, I've switched back to flash on both but no difference. HTPC is fine on either, Gaming PC poor on both.

mossym

on the same tab you select the video source is an option to show video stats. this will give you the fps, resolution, and even teh bandwidth(called playback rate) of the video .

if all of these are the same on both pc's especially bandwith (bandwidth will fluctuate but should be roughly the same), then it is nothing to do with the homeplugs.

it could be that you have a different video codec installed on one pc which is giving you signifcantly better results

mossym

for what it's worth, i don't think for one second this is the conenction i.e. the homeplugs. if it was, the video stream wouldn't look worse if set to source, it would just stutter and break up as the pipe wasn't big enough .

ScumLord

Do you have a wireless router you can try as an alternative network connection just to see if it is the connection?

I tried them plug yolks years ago and abandoned them. They work in the absence of something better but I didn't find them all that reliable. I can't even remember why I stopped using them.

Zillah

ScumLord wrote: »

Do you have a wireless router you can try as an alternative network connection just to see if it is the connection?

I tried them plug yolks years ago and abandoned them. They work in the absence of something better but I didn't find them all that reliable. I can't even remember why I stopped using them.

On the other hand, I use powerline adaptors and they work like an absolute dream. Almost ethernet standard.

TheDoc

Yeah powerline adapters have done me fine for three years now, in the houses I've been renting hardwired hasn't been an option and wifi signals were usually garbage. I don't have a wifi adapter anymore so can't check on the PC. Virgin did just give me their new router that has Wireless AC, so was toying with buying an AC adapter for the PC.

Gaming is the main thing for me, and powerline adapters have been brilliant. It's this twitch issue though that has always been a nuisance. It's only recently I watched a bit of it downstairs on the HTPC, and was bemused at the difference

ED E

If you're selecting source then as above the HPs wouldnt degrade it, it would just stop/start or buffer.

Something else going on here. Are you further from the TV? 1080 downsampled to 720P and viewed from a distance could *appear* to be a lot better than the 1080 monitor 8" from your nose but not actually be.

EDIT:
Source depends on the streamer but looking at CSGO the norm is somewhere from 5-7Mb for 1080p30, so at 60 you're still only at 14Mb of 50Mb.

mossym

streamerhouse runs at 1080p60 source, just had a look and it seems to be running around 5 to 7Mb.

TheDoc

ED E wrote: »

If you're selecting source then as above the HPs wouldnt degrade it, it would just stop/start or buffer.

Something else going on here. Are you further from the TV? 1080 downsampled to 720P and viewed from a distance could *appear* to be a lot better than the 1080 monitor 8" from your nose but not actually be.

EDIT:
Source depends on the streamer but looking at CSGO the norm is somewhere from 5-7Mb for 1080p30, so at 60 you're still only at 14Mb of 50Mb.

Ah yeah its a really noticeable difference. Would know if it was pixelation from viewing distance, but this is like a major proper difference. Your talking like difference between 480p and 720p on a Youtube video for example.

Like I'd say when I select source, it looks like 480p, as opposed to downstairs where its a crisp 720p.

And the FPS is a big difference also. Very clear and smooth 60fps downstairs, and upstairs its probably around 30fps.

Will run those stats later tonight and post back, that could be a good indicator of whats going on.

Robert ninja

TheDoc wrote: »

Livestreamer rings a bell, what is it again?

Open source project to run streams and some VOD more directly. Has integration with Chatty which I use(d) a lot. It's a real shame it's no longer being developed but it still works with some tweaks. All development has moved to streamlink which as far as I can tell is UNIX only which is fine for me but I dualboot and Windows is for gaming a lot to me so stream options are nice to have all over. Anyway, back to the point. Here's how you can get it to work.

If you're not already using chocolatey for pretty much everything it can be used for, then I highly suggest you do so now. https://chocolatey.org/

Install livestreamer with it in an admin launched cmd.exe (not sure how it works on W10 but this is how it's done on W7 and a friend of mine said she got this working on W10)

choco install livestreamer

Once installed, in a new cmd.exe:

livestreamer --twitch-oauth-authenticate

Should open in your browser. Take note of the token in the URL now. It should look something like

http://livestreamer.tanuki.se/en/develop/twitch_oauth.html#access_token=XXXXXXXXXXXXX&scope=user_read+user_subscriptions

Copy the X area. It's unique to you AFAIK. Obviously this should be being done on the system and browser that you log into twitch with.

Now launch a stream via:

livestreamer --twitch-oauth-token=XXX  twitch.tv/XXX best

Have VLC installed to hopefully avoid fuss of livestreamer not finding the player. If it doesn't find it there's a command to specifythe directory of the player you want but I forget said command so it's probably just best to:

choco install VLC

TheDoc

Ah yes I remember using that a few years ago where one of the lads mentioned it sometimes operated better quality, when at the time I was living in an area with only 24mbps ADSL.

Will give it a go when I am home and see if it makes it any better. Obviously a handy part of using well, Twitch, is being able to jump streams, which I do a lot depending on the time of day. Going through a manual linking process might get annoying after a while : /

Robert ninja

TheDoc wrote: »

Ah yes I remember using that a few years ago where one of the lads mentioned it sometimes operated better quality, when at the time I was living in an area with only 24mbps ADSL.

Will give it a go when I am home and see if it makes it any better. Obviously a handy part of using well, Twitch, is being able to jump streams, which I do a lot depending on the time of day. Going through a manual linking process might get annoying after a while : /

It used to be so much easier with Chatty. Listed all your follows and allowed you to launch in whatever quality you want with great chat tools including seeing deleted messages and highlighting words/users you want. I still use livestreamer (and I will use streamlink) because I simply cannot stand the twitch website. Everything about it is ugly and seems sluggish or delayed somehow.

You can also still make .bat files on windows for your fave streams. Just double click em' or open in command line and there's your stream, crystal clear in VLC, available to be rezied and moved around to any place on your screen(s). When livestreamer/Chatty combo didn't have this new token issue (that's actually caused by twitch changing stuff) I found it to be the better way to jump in/out of streams, not even needing to launch my browser. Even more so if you're used to command line or just know how to get around things with shortcuts. Typing in livestreamer twitch.tv/XXX best was quicker than launching my browser and typing the URL or looking through my follows.

TheDoc

Yeah I definitely remember this now cause I had a desktop folder with bat files for my followed streams haha.

Be on the PC in a while and run will some stats and try the above and let.you all know what the story is.

Also on the hunt for a wireless AC adapter as I think I'll give that a go. Got a new virgin router that has AC and whilst I hate WiFi I've heard great things about ac

TheDoc

Right some stats from Twitch, unfortunately none of my main channels online, and qualit ylooking a bit better anyway but here is some stats for https://www.twitch.tv/slootbag

Video Res: 1920 x 1080
Display Res: 1603 x 791
FPS:45
Buffer size 5 sec
LAtency to broadcaster : 12 sec
Latency to encoder 10 sec

https://www.twitch.tv/sodapoppin (hate this stream, but know hes 60 fps

Video res 1280 x 720p
Display res: 1620 x 791
FPS 60

Typical, go to get these stats and all the streams look pretty good Still not as crisp as downstairs on the HTPC tho

mossym

TheDoc wrote: »

Right some stats from Twitch, unfortunately none of my main channels online, and qualit ylooking a bit better anyway but here is some stats for https://www.twitch.tv/slootbag

Video Res: 1920 x 1080
Display Res: 1603 x 791
FPS:45
Buffer size 5 sec
LAtency to broadcaster : 12 sec
Latency to encoder 10 sec

https://www.twitch.tv/sodapoppin (hate this stream, but know hes 60 fps

Video res 1280 x 720p
Display res: 1620 x 791
FPS 60

Typical, go to get these stats and all the streams look pretty good Still not as crisp as downstairs on the HTPC tho

you are missing the bandwidth stat from those? Plus to make it really useful it would be good to see the same stats from both pc's at the same time.

however, if you are getting a 1080p stream at 45fps, i'm pretty sure it's not your homeplugs. if the stream isn't pausing, buffering or breaking up, it's not the homeplugs

Idioteque

Why don't you connect your gaming pc case in downstairs (if you're not prepared to run a cable) and check it...at least you can rule out/in one element for definite without all the other messing around.

TheDoc

Ugh this is really getting annoying

Below is more stats from https://www.twitch.tv/asmongold

Stream looking pixelated, like its 480p, and getting stuttery and laggy, nowhere near the 60fps stated in stats

Spear

TheDoc wrote: »

Ugh this is really getting annoying

Below is more stats from https://www.twitch.tv/asmongold

Stream looking pixelated, like its 480p, and getting stuttery and laggy, nowhere near the 60fps stated in stats

I get the same image quality at 3000kbps from his stream, it's not that sharply encoded. But the low frame rate makes me wonder if there's a video acceleration issue going on instead.

TheDoc

Here is another acting up a bit

http://prntscr.com/cuzbx4

And this is the stream I watch most often lately, perfectly wonderful downstairs

http://prntscr.com/cuzcbv

https://www.twitch.tv/fragnance

mossym

it's not a network issue, it's not restricted bandwidth, didn't think so from the start, could be some of the video processing in your tv is cleaning up the noisy source. can you turn on game mode on the input you have htpc hoked up to on the tv and see how it looks? game mode will bypass the video processing.

however, i'd be surprised if the tv is cleaning it up as much as you are saying, i think there is something screwed up video wise on your gaming pc

TheDoc

ok don't want to jinx it but seems to be better last like 20 mins, and I've made two changes

1) Was looking at the ethernet cable form the homeplug and saw it was Cat5, swopped it out for Cat5e

2) Here is the funny part. Changed the cable and plugged into my switch. My switch, that has nothing else in it at the moment. Realised I had moved some stuff around the room two weeks ago and have left a few bits unplugged. So have the homeplug going straight into PC, as opposed the switch.

Will try it out for a while and see how we go

TheDoc

Like from what people see I'm sharing is there any glaring wrong with the stats or different?

I'm actually just watching Twitch on my new iPhone 6 Plus at my PC, the quality so different to whats happening on my PC.

Yet I've no idea what sort of settings or **** i could be looking at on my PC to see whats different to HTPC, noth just using chrome

Robert ninja

So is the quality still bad on your PC compared to other devices? Did you try to use the exact same connection that others are?

Smaller screen looks a lot better because it's less stretched. Your phone probably not the fairest comparison for this. Maybe it's just the PC monitor ppi?

TheDoc

Robert ninja wrote: »

So is the quality still bad on your PC compared to other devices? Did you try to use the exact same connection that others are?

Smaller screen looks a lot better because it's less stretched. Your phone probably not the fairest comparison for this. Maybe it's just the PC monitor ppi?

Yeah PC worse then HTPC for example.

Gaming PC much higher spec. This issue started maybe three weeks ago.

Only thing I can figure is either Twitch issues, Virgin issues, or my powerline adapters are acting up. I'm getting like 50-60mbps down and 20mbps up...

Streams still look pixelated and laggy. Not happening with youtube or netflix

Robert ninja

You really need to connect the PC up just like you have the HTPC to climate all this guess work.

TheDoc

Robert ninja wrote: »

You really need to connect the PC up just like you have the HTPC to climate all this guess work.

Well that would be an optimal solution alright, but that involves running ethernet outside the house and back in, something I cant really do myself

wiz569

TheDoc wrote: »

Well that would be an optimal solution alright, but that involves running ethernet outside the house and back in, something I cant really do myself

Could you not just take the PC downstairs and see if its OK then?

mossym

TheDoc wrote: »

.

Only thing I can figure is either Twitch issues, Virgin issues, or my powerline adapters are acting up. I'm getting like 50-60mbps down and 20mbps up...

Streams still look pixelated and laggy. Not happening with youtube or netflix

despite the fact it's been pointed out lots of times that network issues won't cause degradation in quality of a stream, they will cause breakups .

you've gotten lots of suggestions to try, but seem to be honing in on the smartplugs, and haven't tried any of them. to be honest, and not having a go, not sure what more you want from people.

TheDoc

mossym wrote: »

despite the fact it's been pointed out lots of times that network issues won't cause degradation in quality of a stream, they will cause breakups .

you've gotten lots of suggestions to try, but seem to be honing in on the smartplugs, and haven't tried any of them. to be honest, and not having a go, not sure what more you want from people.

Well as you say people seem to be ruling out the network, so I guess I'm looking for guidance on what to look for in terms of things on my PC?

Like it's Google Chrome, it has built in flash that you don't maintain outside. So both HTPC and PC are similar in this sense.

I'm honing in on the smartplugs because its the only thing that seems to make sense to me, and I guess maybe someone will come along going "oh yeah that **** happened to me, here is what I did".

I'll try lug the PC downstairs and plug it in, but fair bit of work uncabling so it's not an immediate solution. But I will try. I should mention though, that I don't think that is right to say degradation of network issues won't cause quality issues. Of course it does. If you don't have a good connection Netflix for example doesn't scale to HD and keeps you on 480p and sometimes less. Twitch has the same sort of function where even if you are selecting "source" if your connection is not up to par, its not feeding you the full whack. I literally just know this to be the case first hand from three different houses I've lived in where the quality has changed for the better as my internet availability has got better, and also just even from some friends houses where their internet is trash.

So I'm looking for maybe some left field suggestions. Is there Chrome things to look at, is there video card things I can check. The likes of that.

I should mention, which is my fault, I didn't outline the OP this only started happening the last like 3-4 weeks. I mentioned that on the Virgin thread to them but forgot here. I thought it was actually a Virgin media issue until I saw on the HTPC it was fine.

Appreciate also people saying that on my HTPC or phone it might be pixelation from distance, but its one of those you need to trust me that I know the difference and its massive. Even the smoothness is worlds apart on my phone and HTPC compared to my PC.

I'm picking up a new router this week and a AC WIFI adapter for my PC. I had planned to get the router for a good while anyway, the availability for AC in my new Virgin Hub just made me push along the planned purchase. I see on other threads about Virgins Hub 3.0 how people with third party routers get such stronger performance.

I tested an AC device for the first time over the weekend, and on an iphone 6 was getting 110-120mbps on wifi, compared to the 50/60mbps via homeplugs. Twitch looked pretty superior on that (I ran it at my PC desk to mirror the range)

I know myself I'm pissing in the wind a bit and I just need to run a cable, but its a bit of a last resort for the scenario I have. So a new router was a planned purchase anyway, so will grab an AC adapter(which was planned also) and will drop back an update when that setup goes into play.

TheDoc

So payday I just went and bought a TPLink Archer C8 router and TPlink AC Wifi adapter for the pc.

These are the speeds I'm getting on gaming PC with the adapter to Virgin provided router (C8 being a dick and cant get it working yet)



First test I did was onto Twitch and to no surprise, everything running like my HTPC. HD, beautiful FPs and im pretty delighted. IT was a massive positive after two hours of soul destroying messing with the router(Still not working)

So as originally thought, was a homeplug/powerline adapter issue.

Granted I'll need to see use over the coming days to see if the Twitch side of things is resolved(they've had problems) but from my end at least I'm confident I've now ruled it out.

With WIFI AC being so strong and reliable, don't think I'll use homeplugs ever again really.


I'm on Virgins 240 package btw, so I'm basically maxing out over wifi, which is AMAZING