Changing handicap post round

morrga

Guy played Presidents Prize today off 12. Scored 41 points. Checked computer afterwards and it said his handicap 13. He marked up card to 42 and won by one point. Anything dodgy here?

Hoof Hearted2

morrga wrote: »

Guy played Presidents Prize today off 12. Scored 41 points. Checked computer afterwards and it said his handicap 13. He marked up card to 42 and won by one point. Anything dodgy here?

It depends, if his correct HC is 13 and he wrote 12 on the card but changed it before he submitted the card then there is no issue.
Obviously if his actually HC is 12 his is DQ'd

neckedit

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

It depends, if his correct HC is 13 and he wrote 12 on the card but changed it before he submitted the card then there is no issue.
Obviously if his actually HC is 13 his is DQ'd

Even if he played off a lower handicap?

neckedit

neckedit wrote: »

Even if he played off a lower handicap?

Sorry..... I misread the Op.

Seve OB

neckedit wrote: »

Even if he played off a lower handicap?

but did he play off a lower handicap? he changed it before submitting the card

anyway, as far as I was aware, if you play off a lower handicap, then there is no problem, just your own tough luck

morrga

Seve OB wrote: »

but did he play off a lower handicap? he changed it before submitting the card

anyway, as far as I was aware, if you play off a lower handicap, then there is no problem, just your own tough luck

He played off 12 and then after round changed it to 13 before submitting card.

slave1

Surely if you sign into the competition on a 12 then you're a 12, I'm always asked my handicap before teeing off not afterwards

Hoof Hearted2

slave1 wrote: »

Surely if you sign into the competition on a 12 then you're a 12, I'm always asked my handicap before teeing off not afterwards

In competition the HC on the card is what counts, as long as it's not higher than your official HC there is no issue.

Senna

morrga wrote: »

He played off 12 and then after round changed it to 13 before submitting card.

What do you mean he played off? Was he in the wrong category for teeing off or something else that 12 gave him an advantage?

Either way, your score can be altered before submitting if a mistake has been made.

Dtoffee

So long as all scores were correctly marked on the card and any changes were initialled, I think he was well within his rights to amend his handicap and result before putting his card in.

Poker Face

Dtoffee wrote: »

So long as all scores were correctly marked on the card and any changes were initialled, I think he was well within his rights to amend his handicap and result before putting his card in.

Slightly off topic but no initials are required for alterations made to a card. The players signature confirms all changes made to a card.

As for OP as long as he hadn't entered his scorecard and his HC is 13 then there is no problem changing it. Different story if his card was in and then it was changed.

plumber77

Poker Face wrote: »

Slightly off topic but no initials are required for alterations made to a card. The players signature confirms all changes made to a card.

As for OP as long as he hadn't entered his scorecard and his HC is 13 then there is no problem changing it. Different story if his card was in and then it was changed.

In our club the person who marks the card has to initial any changes to the card. Maybe that's up to the individual club though.

Dtoffee

plumber77 wrote: »

In our club the person who marks the card has to initial any changes to the card. Maybe that's up to the individual club though.

I have always thought that to be the rule, but appearently it is not and players can amend their cards at will prior to posting their score.

HighLine

plumber77 wrote: »

In our club the person who marks the card has to initial any changes to the card. Maybe that's up to the individual club though.

Well then your club would not be operating within the rules of golf.


6-6a/6 Requirement That Alteration on Score Card Be Initialled
Q.May a Committee require that alterations made on score cards be initialled?

A.No. Nothing is laid down in the Rules of Golf as to how alterations should be made on a score card.

Hoof Hearted2

Dtoffee wrote: »

I have always thought that to be the rule, but appearently it is not and players can amend their cards at will prior to posting their score.

There is no requirement in the rules of golf to initial changes on the card by the marker, although for the most part it's been common practice to do so, in saying that, your interpenetration that you can amend your score at will before submitting your card is incorrect, the changes must be witnessed and attested by the marker and this is done so by marker signing the card, any changes made without following that condition amounts to cheating.

Dtoffee

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

your interpenetration that you can amend your score at will before submitting your card is incorrect, the changes must be witnessed and attested by the marker and this is done so by marker signing the card, any changes made without following that condition amounts to cheating.

so then the question for the OP is : did the marker of the player in question's card sign off before the changes were made and was he witness to the handicap and extra point change ? also was it checked that he actually merited an extra point at index 13 or did they just add one point (maybe he had a scratch at the hole).

Also, if the changes must be witnessed and attested by the marker prior to signing the card ..... how can the handicap secretary (or whoever is doing the cards) know when those changes were made and that the marker approved such changes ?

Despite the rules, I think plumber77's club has it right in requiring any changes to cards be initialled.... but thats just a personal opinion.

DiegoWorst

my view has always been the marker must ensure that the strokes recorded on the card are 100% accurate. At the end of 18 holes, he signs the card attesting to the fact he is satisfied that the strokes recorded are correct. Any alteration to the strokes recorded in the absence of the marker is against the rules.

In this case, I see nothing wrong with the player amending his handicap on the card, and adding 1 stableford point to his total if applicable.

However, having read some of the replies to this thread, I'm starting to doubt myself.

I always thought if marker and player miscalculated the number of stableford points on a particular hole, it could be adjusted without penalty by competition secretary. But if the strokes recorded is incorrect, the card would be DQ'ed.

Hoof Hearted2

Dtoffee wrote: »

so then the question for the OP is : did the marker of the player in question's card sign off before the changes were made and was he witness to the handicap and extra point change ? also was it checked that he actually merited an extra point at index 13 or did they just add one point (maybe he had a scratch at the hole).

Also, if the changes must be witnessed and attested by the marker prior to signing the card ..... how can the handicap secretary (or whoever is doing the cards) know when those changes were made and that the marker approved such changes ?

Despite the rules, I think plumber77's club has it right in requiring any changes to cards be initialled.... but thats just a personal opinion.

It's the players own responsibility to make sure his HC is correct, the markers only responsibility is to record the scores and attest these by signing the card.

The HC secretaries job can be difficult and it's not always possible to check every card, he will however check the winning cards and if there are any discrepancies he has the option to contact the marker to confirm those scores.

Fwiw, personally I always initial any change I make to a scorecard I'm marking and request the same be done to my own card, but it's not against the to not do so.

CMOTDibbler

DiegoWorst wrote: »

my view has always been the marker must ensure that the strokes recorded on the card are 100% accurate. At the end of 18 holes, he signs the card attesting to the fact he is satisfied that the strokes recorded are correct. Any alteration to the strokes recorded in the absence of the marker is against the rules.

In this case, I see nothing wrong with the player amending his handicap on the card, and adding 1 stableford point to his total if applicable.

However, having read some of the replies to this thread, I'm starting to doubt myself.

I always thought if marker and player miscalculated the number of stableford points on a particular hole, it could be adjusted without penalty by competition secretary. But if the strokes recorded is incorrect, the card would be DQ'ed.

Yeah, that's my understanding too. In my club, when entering a competition on the computer, a label is printed off that has name, handicap, competition etc. on it. This is stuck on the card and it's very unlikely that the handicap would be wrong. However, it sometimes can happen where the member has played an event at another club and the score and handicap alteration that goes with it hasn't come through on the system. In that case, the handicap would need to be altered manually. I know this has happened to me where I played a competition in Kerry and the score there didn't come through for a couple of weeks; though it didn't impact my handicap at the time.

Russman

DiegoWorst wrote: »

I always thought if marker and player miscalculated the number of stableford points on a particular hole, it could be adjusted without penalty by competition secretary. But if the strokes recorded is incorrect, the card would be DQ'ed.

Absolutely. The player afaik is only responsible for his handicap being correct and the actual strokes taken being correct. He doesn't even have to add them up or enter the stableford points if he couldn't be bothered. If I remember correctly, he's not even obliged to put the date on his card, that's strictly the committee's duty (open to correction on that as it may have changed).

I think we need more info from the Op as to the sequence of events.

Russman

Interesting couple of decisions........seems its all down to intent or what the player believed.

6-2b/1
Q.
In a stroke play competition, A believed that his handicap was ten strokes, which he recorded on his score card. In fact his handicap was nine strokes. He won the event because of the error. The result of the competition was announced and the error was then discovered. What is the ruling?

A.
The competition should stand as played. Under Rule 34-1b, a penalty under Rule 6-2b may not be imposed after a handicap stroke play competition has closed unless the competitor has knowingly played off a handicap higher than that to which he was entitled.

6-2b/2
Q.
In late June, A submitted an entry form for a handicap stroke play competition to be held on July 10 and stated therein that his handicap was seven strokes, which was his correct handicap. On July 1, A’s handicap was reduced to six strokes and he was aware of the reduction.
On July 10, he played in the stroke-play competition and returned his score card with a handicap of seven strokes recorded thereon, and this affected the number of strokes received. Under the conditions for the event he should have recorded his up-to-date handicap of six strokes. After the competition was closed, it was discovered that A had played off seven, instead of six.
The Committee questioned A, and A stated either that he knew he should have played off his up-to-date handicap or that he was uncertain at the time. What should the Committee do?

A.
In either case, he should be deemed to have knowingly played off a higher handicap than that to which he was entitled and is disqualified under Rule 34-1b, Exception (ii).
Had A believed players were required to use their handicaps at the time of entry, there would have been no penalty as the competition had closed (Rule 34-1b).

Seve OB

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Yeah, that's my understanding too. In my club, when entering a competition on the computer, a label is printed off that has name, handicap, competition etc. on it. This is stuck on the card and it's very unlikely that the handicap would be wrong. However, it sometimes can happen where the member has played an event at another club and the score and handicap alteration that goes with it hasn't come through on the system. In that case, the handicap would need to be altered manually. I know this has happened to me where I played a competition in Kerry and the score there didn't come through for a couple of weeks; though it didn't impact my handicap at the time.

Lots of places have labels. some don't. sometimes they are broken.

If you get .1 back, you must wait till it's applied by the proper channel. Ie your Handicap secretary and Golfnet.

If you get cut, you must apply the cut yourself straight away

Russman

Seve OB wrote: »

If you get .1 back, you must wait till it's applied by the proper channel. Ie your Handicap secretary and Golfnet.

You sure about that ? (genuinely asking)
I thought when they moved to real-time updating of handicaps, ie not having to wait til the end of the month to get a playing shot back, you got your 0.1 and new handicap if applicable, when the competition closed, or effectively the next morning ?

Seve OB

Russman wrote: »

You sure about that ? (genuinely asking)
I thought when they moved to real-time updating of handicaps, ie not having to wait til the end of the month to get a playing shot back, you got your 0.1 and new handicap if applicable, when the competition closed, or effectively the next morning ?

I'm sure.

ronjo

Seve OB wrote: »

Lots of places have labels. some don't. sometimes they are broken.

If you get .1 back, you must wait till it's applied by the proper channel. Ie your Handicap secretary and Golfnet.

If you get cut, you must apply the cut yourself straight away

Does this mean every .1 is manually applied?
I play in Central Europe so no experience of how things work in Irish Clubs.
Here its all centrally held and automated, even cross border in some cases.

Hoof Hearted2

Seve OB wrote: »

I'm sure.

That's correct upward adjustments to HC must be updated on the system before coming into effect, downward adjustments must be applied immediately by the player.

Seve OB

ronjo wrote: »

Does this mean every .1 is manually applied?
I play in Central Europe so no experience of how things work in Irish Clubs.
Here its all centrally held and automated, even cross border in some cases.

no, it is all on computer, but have to get processed by the handicap secretary at your home club
away scores can take some time to filter back into your club,

ronjo

Seve OB wrote: »

no, it is all on computer, but have to get processed by the handicap secretary at your home club
away scores can take some time to filter back into your club,

As far as I know handicap secretarys dont exist here at least not on a club by club basis.
It doesnt matter where I play a tournament in Czech Republic or Slovakia, it would update my handicap as soon as my score was entered for the competition.