Which type of Antenna and would the attic be sufficient ?

Fr Tod Umptious

Hi
I’m trying to go down the route of Sky free TV by using a combo box to get Satellite and digital terrestrial (Saoirview) TV

However for the Saoirview I’d need an antenna.

One like this that we got from PCWorld will not work on the main TV in the house and works poorly on an upstairs TV

There are a few “TV points” on the wall behind the TV that the Sky installer never used so I assume they go up to the attic.

I’d like to try and put an antenna in the attic rather than the outside as it’s something I could do myself

But what sort of antenna would work ?
We are 8km clear line of sight to the transmitter by the way

Would this be sufficient?
http://www.freetv.ie/saorview-uhf-tv-aerial-kit-higher-gain/

Tony

It should work but you might also consider a smaller log periodic type, won't take up so much space.

marno21

Which transmitter are you talking about?

There is a massive difference in power between some of the smaller relays and the main sites.

Fr Tod Umptious

marno21 wrote: »

Which transmitter are you talking about?

There is a massive difference in power between some of the smaller relays and the main sites.

Not sure what its called, it on the mountain south of Tralee, at the east of the Dingle peninsula.

There is an antenna array up there, not sure what they are for but I assume there is a TV one there.

STB.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Not sure what its called, it on the mountain south of Tralee, at the east of the Dingle peninsula.

There is an antenna array up there, not sure what they are for but I assume there is a TV one there.

DVB-T transmission sites use panel arrays and there are several tranmitters that serve Tralee.

This will tell you which way you should be pointing and which type aerial to get.

Its likely to be Mullaghanish which are on a Ch 21 and 24. Or Knockmoyle which is on Ch 52 and 56.

https://www.saorview.ie/en/get/coverage

marno21

STB. wrote: »

DVB-T transmission sites use panel arrays and there are several tranmitters that serve Tralee.

This will tell you which way you should be pointing and which type aerial to get

https://www.saorview.ie/en/get/coverage

It's Knockmoyle he's on about, a 1kW site located on the Sliabh Mish mountains south of Tralee. It's home to RTE TV/radio/independent radio/ex. UPC/mobile/broadband etc. It's the main site for Tralee and central Co. Kerry as well as being a trunk site for various comms/link purposes.

The J Stands for Jay

I did something similar a few months ago, using this:

http://www.freetv.ie/wide-band-grid-uhf-aerial/

Probably overkill for 6km away from the transmitter, but I wanted to be sure it'd work on the attic. Lashed it to a joist and it didn't need any adjusting to get perfect picture.

STB.

marno21 wrote: »

It's Knockmoyle he's on about, a 1kW site located on the Sliabh Mish mountains south of Tralee. It's home to RTE TV/radio/independent radio/ex. UPC/mobile/broadband etc. It's the main site for Tralee and central Co. Kerry as well as being a trunk site.

Many parts of Tralee north of the hospital are served by Mullaghanish.

STB.

McGaggs wrote: »

I did something similar a few months ago, using this:

http://www.freetv.ie/wide-band-grid-uhf-aerial/

Probably overkill for 6km away from the transmitter, but I wanted to be sure it'd work on the attic. Lashed it to a joist and it didn't need any adjusting to get perfect picture.

Overkill. Don't know about that. A grouped might be overkill and short term if any further moves are made to contract those higher frequencies even further. A wideband might be fine for this particular scenario if its the 6k down the road transmitter, rather than the one thats 50k away.

Aerials perform differently at different frequencies

The Cush

If Knockmoyle go for this Group T - http://www.freetv.ie/black-wide-band-uhf-aerial/
If Mullaghanish go for this Group A - http://www.freetv.ie/red-group-a-uhf-aerial/

Both are compact contract aerials, tidier than the wideband grid linked to above. The wideband grid would no longer be recommended as it overlaps with the now 4G 800MHz mobile band and future 4G/5G 700MHz mobile band and so would be susceptible to interference from any nearby mobile base station using these frequencies. How well these aerials perform in the attic will depend on what the signal strength/quality is like where you locate the aerial.

Fr Tod Umptious

marno21 wrote: »

It's Knockmoyle he's on about, a 1kW site located on the Sliabh Mish mountains south of Tralee. It's home to RTE TV/radio/independent radio/ex. UPC/mobile/broadband etc. It's the main site for Tralee and central Co. Kerry as well as being a trunk site.

Yep, that's it, I'm to the south of it.

Thanks for all the info.

STB.

The Cush wrote: »

If Knockmoyle go for this Group T - http://www.freetv.ie/black-wide-band-uhf-aerial/
If Mullaghanish go for this Group A - http://www.freetv.ie/red-group-a-uhf-aerial/

Both are compact contract aerials, tidier than the wideband grid linked to above. The wideband grid would no longer be recommended as it overlaps with the now 4G 800MHz mobile band and future 4G/5G 700MHz mobile band and so would be susceptible to interference from any nearby mobile base station using these frequencies. How well these aerials perform in the attic will depend on what the signal strength/quality is like where you locate the aerial.

The new wideband aerials (white tip rather than black) filter out anything above 680Megs. They are made by Blake and so would be fine.

http://www.freetv.ie/black-wide-band-uhf-aerial/

The Cush

STB. wrote: »

Your link for the Group A is wrong by the by.

My link for the Group A is correct, red tip. My transmitter is Mullaghanish for which I use a red tip Blake DMX10A.

This is Blake's wideband grid (Group W UHF21-69) - https://www.blake-uk.com/jbb-billboard-freeview-tv-aerial/187-tv-aerials-bilboard-4-stack-32-element-dipole-array-wb-jbb-billboard-blake-aerials.html. It covers the full UHF band including the 4G band and so wouldn't be recommended these days.

The freetv's wideband grid aerial indicates its coverage is up to UHF 59, I haven't come across this type of aerial with reduced coverage of the band and would like to see the manufacturer's spec for these aerials.

The Cush

STB. wrote: »

The new wideband aerials (white tip rather than black) filter out anything above 680Megs. They are made by Blake and so would be fine.

http://www.freetv.ie/black-wide-band-uhf-aerial/

This new wideband aerial group, Group T, filter out anything above 790MHz (UHF 60).

They are only an interim group until the 700MHz band (UHF 49-60) is cleared at which time Group K (UHF 21-48 grey tip) will become the recommended wideband aerial, in about 4 years.

STB.

The Cush wrote: »

My link for the Group A is correct, red tip. My transmitter is Mullaghanish for which I use a red tip Blake DMX10A.

This is Blake's wideband grid (Group W UHF21-69) - https://www.blake-uk.com/jbb-billboard-freeview-tv-aerial/187-tv-aerials-bilboard-4-stack-32-element-dipole-array-wb-jbb-billboard-blake-aerials.html. It covers the full UHF band including the 4G band and so wouldn't be recommended these days.

The freetv's wideband grid aerial indicates its coverage is up to UHF 59, I haven't come across this type of aerial with reduced coverage of the band and would like to see the manufacturer's spec for these aerials.

Those new Wideband aerials from Blake have a White Tip rather than black and filter out anything above 680Mhz currently used by LTE. You have been referring to them as a T.

There are plenty of the Wideband UHF aerials that now exclude the 680 and above frequencies, the strangest of which is the the one that goes around your dish and has lnb inputs and a mixed output back the one cable.



Might save the loft mounting scenario. "Mercury 130.022 Wideband Clamp-on Mixer Aerial"

The Cush

STB. wrote: »

Those new Wideband aerials from Blake have a White Tip rather than black and filter out anything above 680Mhz currently used by LTE. You have been referring to them as a T.

Those Group T white tip aerials cover the range UHF21-60 (470-790MHz), they were introduced post ASO/DSO. Where are you getting 680MHz?
I first posted about them here back in 2012.


Source: Blake Aerials






LTE is currently used from 791Mhz upwards (800MHz band), once the 700MHz band (694-790MHz) is released it will be used from 703MHz upwards.

STB. wrote: »

There are plenty of the Wideband UHF aerials that now exclude the 680 and above frequencies, the strangest of which is the the one that goes around your dish and has lnb inputs and a mixed output back the one cable.

Can you link to a regular wideband aerial that excludes the frequencies 680 MHz and upwards? 680MHz is an odd frequency as it's 2 MHz above the start of UHF 47 (678MHz) and 2MHz below its centre frequency. Group K aerials cover up to and incl. UHF 48 and the 700MHz band starts at UHF 49, they will replace Group T in due course as the recommended wideband aerial.

The revised 700MHz-cleared DTT band plan for the main Irish transmitters allocates UHF 47 and 48 to various sites including Cairn Hill, Woodcock Hill, Dungarvan, Truskmore etc.etc.

The Cush

Dog with a bone here, just can't let it go

CAI/AB/DOC02 - Joint CAI / DTG Aerial Benchmarking, Procedure and Benchmark Manual, Issue: 15, 19th November 2013

http://www.cai.org.uk/downloadables/finish/37-aerial-benchmarking/519-aerial-benchmarking-cai-dtg-rev-1-iss-15-22-01-2014

OPERATING FREQUENCY RANGE: Spectrum between maximum and minimum frequencies of particular aerial group.

GROUP A: Minimum 470 MHz Maximum 606 MHz, Centre frequency 538 MHz.
GROUP B: Minimum 582 MHz Maximum 734 MHz, Centre frequency 658 MHz.
GROUP CD: Minimum 686 MHz Maximum 854 MHz, Centre frequency 770 MHz.
GROUP E: Minimum 582 MHz Maximum 854 MHz, Centre frequency 718 MHz.
GROUP K: Minimum 470 MHz Maximum 694 MHz, Centre frequency 582 MHz
GROUP T: Minimum 470 MHz Maximum 790MHz, Centre frequency 630MHz
GROUP W (Wideband): Minimum 470 MHz Maximum 854 MHz, Centre frequency 658MHz.

STB.

The Cush wrote: »

Those Group T white tip aerials cover the range UHF21-60 (470-790MHz), they were introduced post ASO/DSO. Where are you getting 680MHz?

From my addled head.

Channels 60-68 somehow became 680MHZ albeit temporarily. Luckily the manufacturers haven't been manufacturing these new widebands according to moments of dyscalculia.

Its late.

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Where are you getting 680MHz?

Can you link to a regular wideband aerial that excludes the frequencies 680 MHz and upwards? 680MHz is an odd frequency as it's 2 MHz above the start of UHF 47 (678MHz) and 2MHz below its centre frequency.

I think I figured it out, are you using the North America UHF frequency plan where UHF 49 starts at 680MHz?

STB.

The Cush wrote: »

I think I figured it out, are you using the North America UHF frequency plan where UHF 49 starts at 680MHz?

I'd like to use that as an excuse.

Nah just channel numbers rather than frequency bands!

Fr Tod Umptious

Thanks for the info

So is it the Group T, white tip, I should be going for ?

By the way the cheap "All in One" cheap antenna works OK-ish plugged into a set top box in a room a few meters closer to Knockmoyle than the room the main TV is in, where it does not work at all.

Would I get any value in putting the "All in One" cheap antenna in the attic, connected to the cabling that runs down to the wall port behind the main TV ?, or would there be loss due to the cable length that would negate it

The J Stands for Jay

Is my understanding correct that I will need a new aerial once 5g is put in motion?

The Cush

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

So is it the Group T, white tip, I should be going for ?

By the way the cheap "All in One" cheap antenna works OK-ish plugged into a set top box in a room a few meters closer to Knockmoyle than the room the main TV is in, where it does not work at all.

Would I get any value in putting the "All in One" cheap antenna in the attic, connected to the cabling that runs down to the wall port behind the main TV ?, or would there be loss due to the cable length that would negate it

Group T if your transmitter is Knockmoyle.

No harm testing the All-in-one in the attic, you have the extra height there with maybe a slate or tile roof between it and the transmitter and possibly reduced interference from household appliances. Is the all-in one aerial powered?

Thurston?

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Would I get any value in putting the "All in One" cheap antenna in the attic, connected to the cabling that runs down to the wall port behind the main TV ?

Worth a try. Obviously, as with any aerial installation, but particularly likely to be encountered indoors, make sure it's not 'looking' through materials hostile to radio waves, such as metal, or anything filled with water.

If it's in the room with the TV, in or near a window facing the transmitter would be the prime spot.

The Cush

McGaggs wrote: »

Is my understanding correct that I will need a new aerial once 5g is put in motion?

Depends on what transmitter you're receiving from now and what aerial you're currently using, the potential for interference comes from your proximity to any mobile base station using 700/800 MHz frequencies that might fall within the reception range of your current aerial.

Fr Tod Umptious

The Cush wrote: »

Group T if your transmitter is Knockmoyle.

No harm testing the All-in-one in the attic, you have the extra height there with maybe a slate or tile roof between it and the transmitter and possibly reduced interference from household appliances. Is the all-in one aerial powered?

Thanks again
The All in One is not powered.

At the moment it's working OK-ish connected to a STB and pointing at a window that has a clear view of Knockmoyle, in a ground floor room.

The main TV is in a room with no view of Knockmoyle.

By the way when I go into the attic should I expect to find terminated coax cable up there that leads down to the various TV points in various rooms in the house and it's just a case of guessing which is which.

The Cush

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

By the way when I go into the attic should I expect to find terminated coax cable up there that leads down to the various TV points in various rooms in the house and it's just a case of guessing which is which.

Depends on how the electrican wired the house. Maybe to the attic or press somewhere in the house.