Dublin Bus fare structure - What a joke

Chivito550

Get on the 16 bus at the first stop in Kingston and get off at Camden St/Grantham St and you pay 2.05. Get the bus at Camden St/Grantham St and get off at the last stop in Kingston and you pay 2.60.

Dublin Bus tell me it is charged based on the number of stages I travel, and not the distance. So because there must be 1-2 extra stops thrown in going southbound than there is going northbound, I have to pay 0.55 more to cover the exact same distance.

What a complete embarrassment of a fare structure. Which clown came up with such a confusing mess of a system?

n97 mini

In fairness to them a lot of other places charge one flat fare. London for example. DB are heading in the same direction, and the recent simplification of fares is is evidence of that. Reduces dwell times and there is no confusion.

Tarabuses

Looking at the Dublin Bus fare calculator it seems that Camden St/Grantham St is stage 72 inbound but is not a fare stage outbound. Your outbound fare is, therefore, charged from Aungier Street church which is the previous stage.

It is a surprising anomaly.

LastStop

Chivito550 wrote: »

What a complete embarrassment of a fare structure. Which clown came up with such a confusing mess of a system?

I totally agree, why on earth have they persevered with a system that not only confuses it's customers but is consistently abused and costs the company millions a year in lost revenue.

Dravokivich

Chivito550 wrote: »

What a complete embarrassment of a fare structure. Which clown came up with such a confusing mess of a system?

No one currently in Dublin Bus. I believe it's inherited from trams. The big issue is, there's not enough signage for people to know which stage they are in or travelling to.

XPS_Zero

We need an integrated fare zone system for the city.

loyatemu

there's 2 options to fix the anomaly - increase the fare inbound, which would result in loads of complaints, or decrease the fare outbound which would result in loss of revenue. So DB are probably happy to leave it as it is.

the NTA determine the fares, do they have any control over the stages? Simplifying the fare system is supposed to be one of their objectives.

LXFlyer

The anomaly is that the incorrect inbound stop is labelled as stage 72.

It should be the stop on Harrington Street outside the church.

One of the consequences of the incredibly daft decision some years back to remove stage identifiers from the physical bus stops.

Stephen15

I would suggest if we had a properly subsidised public transport just have a flat of say €2 to travel anywhere within the city.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

I would suggest if we had a properly subsidised public transport just have a flat of say €2 to travel anywhere within the city.

It wouldn't even be too far off where we currently are. The main leap card fare of €2.05 already covers the majority of fares.

Commotion Ocean

bk wrote: »

It wouldn't even be too far off where we currently are. The main leap card fare of €2.05 already covers the majority of fares.

Yeah, but cash fares should also be flat (but still more expensive to encourage the use of leap).

When I was in Lisbon in December, 2015, you could buy a ticket for €2 that was valid for one hour on all subways, surface trains, buses and trams. We need a similar system here.

LXFlyer

dfeo wrote: »

Yeah, but cash fares should also be flat (but still more expensive to encourage the use of leap).

When I was in Lisbon in December, 2015, you could buy a ticket for €2 that was valid for one hour on all subways, surface trains, buses and trams. We need a similar system here.

Anything like that is going to need significant additional PSO funding from government - it's not going to happen overnight.

What we have seen is phased changes to the fare structure over time to minimise the effects on farebox revenue for the companies.

Funding is hopefully going to increase next year, but personally right now I'd prefer to see it spent on additional services.

bk

dfeo wrote: »

Yeah, but cash fares should also be flat (but still more expensive to encourage the use of leap).

I agree, but at a very high level versus leap, for instance €4 cash, €2 leap.

This is what they did on London Bus before finally going fully cashless.

lxflyer wrote: »

Anything like that is going to need significant additional PSO funding from government - it's not going to happen overnight.

Well it should be possible to go to a flat €2.xx Leap fare and €4 cash fare in a revenue neutral manner by modelling the current fare information.

I agree that €2 for one hour across DB/Luas/Dart would be great, but likely require more subsidy.

lxflyer wrote: »

Funding is hopefully going to increase next year, but personally right now I'd prefer to see it spent on additional services.

I think we also need to spend the money on new, much faster and more capable ticket machines, flat fares and support for contactless cards.

Reducing dwell time is also very important. It can be even more effective at reducing journey times and increasing capacity then even buying extra buses. Make the most of what you currently have.

LXFlyer

I don't disagree with any of that but right now people are regularly being left behind at bus stops in the peak - the top priority has to be to address that with extra buses.

After that the wish list you have above should come into play.

Reducing dwell times will have no impact on this in the morning peak as they will all be the first departures for the vehicles - extra departures are needed as a priority on most QBCs.

We will have to see what the changes involve next week.

MOH

Or just have free public transport for residents

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

Reducing dwell times will have no impact on this in the morning peak as they will all be the first departures for the vehicles - extra departures are needed as a priority on most QBCs.

Fair enough, but I do have a real concern that we are reaching the maximum number of buses that our streets and current street infrastructure can handle. All you have to do is look at the chaos at the bus stops on Westmorland Street or the queues of buses you can often see on O'Connell St. I'm generally not sure we can fit many more buses at peak time. At least not without some serious bus priority infrastructure like the quayside public transport route and many more.

So I believe that the cost of adding lots of extra buses while necessary is going to be frighteningly expensive. Due to the combination of expensive new buses (€350,000 each), lots of extra drivers on relatively high wages, supporting staff (inspectors, mechanics, etc.) and lots of money to reconfigure our streets to handle all these extra buses.

But comparison, new faster, ticket machines are a fraction of the cost and you need to buy new ones for new buses anyway!

Also I repeat, that you should be able to introduce a flat fare in a revenue neutral manner. It should have no impact at all on introducing more buses.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Fair enough, but I do have a real concern that we are reaching the maximum number of buses that our streets and current street infrastructure can handle. All you have to do is look at the chaos at the bus stops on Westmorland Street or the queues of buses you can often see on O'Connell St. I'm generally not sure we can fit many more buses at peak time. At least not without some serious bus priority infrastructure like the quayside public transport route and many more.

So I believe that the cost of adding lots of extra buses while necessary is going to be frighteningly expensive. Due to the combination of expensive new buses (€350,000 each), lots of extra drivers on relatively high wages, supporting staff (inspectors, mechanics, etc.) and lots of money to reconfigure our streets to handle all these extra buses.

But comparison, new faster, ticket machines are a fraction of the cost and you need to buy new ones for new buses anyway!

Also I repeat, that you should be able to introduce a flat fare in a revenue neutral manner. It should have no impact at all on introducing more buses.

We are still about 80-90 buses in the Dublin Bus PSO fleet less than the peak number that were on the road at the height of the boom.

So I'm not sure about your calculations!

Bear in mind that the key time is morning peak - most of the extra buses will be on "EURO" duties that do a couple of journeys during the morning and evening peak when capacity is critical.

Westmoreland Street and indeed other city streets would improve if proper bus station facilities were provided for the likes of Aircoach to load up their interurban services off-street.

The other measures you describe may help with off-peak frequency but right now something has to be done in the mornings. Hopefully the extra departures mentioned on the DB website will improve the situation but I still fear that it won't be enough.

As for the flat fare, I think by now you have gathered that sharp changes just don't happen in the Irish public sector (however much you think that they should), and that the authorities are very risk averse. I see further simplifications but I genuinely don't see a flat fare coming until sector finances are in a much more robust shape.

Vic_08

bk wrote: »

Fair enough, but I do have a real concern that we are reaching the maximum number of buses that our streets and current street infrastructure can handle. All you have to do is look at the chaos at the bus stops on Westmorland Street or the queues of buses you can often see on O'Connell St. I'm generally not sure we can fit many more buses at peak time. At least not without some serious bus priority infrastructure like the quayside public transport route and many more.

Nonsense. Clear out private cars, taxi parking areas, long distance bus stops and tour bus parking and those streets will be far less congested.

There is far less space used by DB in the city centre now than there has ever been with the increase in cross-city routes over CC terminators.

bk wrote: »

So I believe that the cost of adding lots of extra buses while necessary is going to be frighteningly expensive. Due to the combination of expensive new buses (€350,000 each), lots of extra drivers on relatively high wages, supporting staff (inspectors, mechanics, etc.) and lots of money to reconfigure our streets to handle all these extra buses.

But comparison, new faster, ticket machines are a fraction of the cost and you need to buy new ones for new buses anyway!

Agreed that new machines are needed (and they should look elsewhere rather than parkeon/wayfarer also) but as lxflyer correctly said none of this will deal with the current capacity issue, there is a need for more buses, higher frequencys and more routes now.

bk wrote: »

Also I repeat, that you should be able to introduce a flat fare in a revenue neutral manner. It should have no impact at all on introducing more buses.

not at €2, €2.40/50 maybe.

Fattes

It is more expensive for two people to take a bus from Dublin Airport to the city return than it is to drive to the city and park for the day! Says everything you need to know about Dublin Bus

Haithabu

Chivito550 wrote: »

Get on the 16 bus at the first stop in Kingston and get off at Camden St/Grantham St and you pay 2.05. Get the bus at Camden St/Grantham St and get off at the last stop in Kingston and you pay 2.60.

Dublin Bus tell me it is charged based on the number of stages I travel, and not the distance. So because there must be 1-2 extra stops thrown in going southbound than there is going northbound, I have to pay 0.55 more to cover the exact same distance.

What a complete embarrassment of a fare structure. Which clown came up with such a confusing mess of a system?

Yes, it's based on stages which us stupid. If you take the 16 from the airport it stops every few meters on Swords Road and on Drumcondra Road which is annoying. The more often it stops the longer it takes to get there. The more often it stops the more expensive is the same trip because you cover more stages.

Haithabu

lxflyer wrote: »

Anything like that is going to need significant additional PSO funding from government - it's not going to happen overnight.

What we have seen is phased changes to the fare structure over time to minimise the effects on farebox revenue for the companies.

Funding is hopefully going to increase next year, but personally right now I'd prefer to see it spent on additional services.

There does not need to be a big funding. There is already a LEAP card reader in each bus. Like train and LUAS you should be able to tag on/off with your LEAP card. Each bus stop in Dublin has a unique number so each stop is in the system. The system should - without much effort - be able to tell exactly how far you have travelled and deduct credit based on that from your LEAP card. Even if you use two different bus lines and tag on/off in each it should be able to recognise that as one journey.

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

Bear in mind that the key time is morning peak - most of the extra buses will be on "EURO" duties that do a couple of journeys during the morning and evening peak when capacity is critical.

exactly, and sit in the depot for the rest of the day doing nothing and getting low usage for the cost. More buses has been the attitude in the past rather than fixing structural issues and we have the current mess. Fixing dwell times, ticket machines etc will improve bus speed enough to make assets work at higher efficiencies and reduce the actual need for more buses for very limited periods of the day.

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

Reducing dwell times will have no impact on this in the morning peak as they will all be the first departures for the vehicles.

I think the poster means the time taken for people to board at a stop, not the time waiting to go into service

snickerpuss

I don't understand why the automatic machine is set to the max fare on buses when it seems that most passengers are paying €2.05 and have to queue for the driver along with everyone paying cash. It takes forever to get on at each stop with almost nobody using the validator at the side. Maybe this is paticular to the buses I get but I'm a little boggled by it.

Vic_08

Carawaystick wrote: »

I think the poster means the time taken for people to board at a stop, not the time waiting to go into service

and lxf was correctly pointing out that reducing dwell times will have no effect on overcrowding on those early services as it is purely down to capacity/demand.

Reducing dwell times is a good thing and it will improve the speed and efficiency of services but for peak, particularly morning peak it won't have much effect on capacity. As it is most buses can only do 1 or 2 peak direction journeys, most routes are too long for anything more even if you reduce overall journey time by 10% through more efficient running. The only way to make a significant increase in peak capacity is to put more or bigger buses on the roads.

Xterminator

Fattes wrote: »

It is more expensive for two people to take a bus from Dublin Airport to the city return than it is to drive to the city and park for the day! Says everything you need to know about Dublin Bus

nope not true.

the most expensive fare (CASH) on the 16 bus is 3.30 e/w total 13.20
Parking in city will cost that, before factoring in petrol etc.

If you use a leap card, fare is 2.60 e/w total 10.40.

Fattes

Xterminator wrote: »

nope not true.

the most expensive fare (CASH) on the 16 bus is 3.30 e/w total 13.20
Parking in city will cost that, before factoring in petrol etc.

If you use a leap card, fare is 2.60 e/w total 10.40.

You can park in the city at the weekend for €10, around most main areas, €8 on a secure car park in pearse street, and free in some areas with the same walk I would have form the 41 bus stop on O'Connell street to Stephens green. My car gets 58.9 MPG or 4.6 Litres to 100 KM so its cheaper to drive also account for the time, 25 Minutes in the car 45-50 Min in bus

bk

Vic_08 wrote: »

Nonsense. Clear out private cars, taxi parking areas, long distance bus stops and tour bus parking and those streets will be far less congested.

It isn't nonsense. I said that there isn't enough road space as it is currently configured. That means as it is currently configured to give far too much space to taxis, private cars, etc.

I agree that the road space needs to be radically reconfigured to give a lot more space to walking, cycling and buses. Just like I said in my post, but you seem to have chosen to ignore!

However doing this properly is going to cost an awful lot of money to do. It will take a far lot more then just a few lines painted on the road and of course Dublin City Council will have to give up revenue earned from onstreet parking, so even more cost.

I 100% agree all of this needs to happen, but don't kid yourself, it won't be easy and it will be very costly.

BTW I disagree on long distance coaches and tour buses. While they certainly shouldn't be allowed to "park up" in the city core, they should be allowed to stop to pick up passengers. After all there is no where else for them to go. And yes a dedicated new long distance bus station for them would be great, but realistically will cost 10's if not 100's of millions to build!

Vic_08 wrote: »

not at €2, €2.40/50 maybe.

I can't see it being any more then €2.20! Most realistically €2.05

€2.05 now currently covers the vast majority of fares. I can't see the majority of customers being happy with 35 to 45 cent increase. And current €1.50 customers would be rightfully outraged by a €1 increase!!

This is what the current fares look like:
Stages 1- 3 €1.50 €2.00
Stages 4 – 13 €2.05 €2.70
Over 13 Stages €2.60 €3.30

The flat fare is blindingly obvious from this. €2.05. Increase stages 1-3 by 55cent, decrease over 13 by 55cent and meet in the very obvious middle €2.05

I'd make it a round €2 for positive advertising and promotion reasons.

I can't see how you could anyway justify a fixed fare of €2.40 to €2.50, makes no sense at all!

Haithabu wrote: »

There does not need to be a big funding. There is already a LEAP card reader in each bus. Like train and LUAS you should be able to tag on/off with your LEAP card. Each bus stop in Dublin has a unique number so each stop is in the system. The system should - without much effort - be able to tell exactly how far you have travelled and deduct credit based on that from your LEAP card. Even if you use two different bus lines and tag on/off in each it should be able to recognise that as one journey.

That is one option and very well done in Amsterdam. The problem with Dublin Bus, is that the current machines are very slow processing leap, so doing this might slow things down. Also DB's use of single door buses and rarely using the rear door when available.

How it works in Amsterdam, is you enter and tag-on at the front door and exit and tag-off at the rear door. Fast and efficient. Dublin Bus aren't currently set up for that. Idealy you would want new, much faster ticekt machines and ideally a full fleet of dual (or more) door buses and them being used at every stop in that way.

For the moment, they are at least 10 more years away from having that, so better to go for a flat fare for now.

Vic_08 wrote: »

and lxf was correctly pointing out that reducing dwell times will have no effect on overcrowding on those early services as it is purely down to capacity/demand.

You know what, I've never really thought about it this way before. It never made sense to me why DB makes zero effort to reduce dwell time. But now it all makes sense!

Basically we are saying that Dublin Bus couldn't care less about their customers!

Really, that is what you are saying. Reducing dwell times, means faster journey times and people get from a to b much faster. But Dublin Bus don't care about that, because it won't increase passenger numbers for the most part (as you say) and fundamentally DB doesn't care about the experience of their customers :mad:

This is why we really so badly need the NTA, to step in and force DB to do what is right and beneficial for their customers. Just like they did with the intercity bus routes.

loyatemu

reduced dwell times won't help people at the first stop on the first service, but it will make a difference (even if it's small) at subsequent stops. The bus will arrive sooner, fewer people will be there waiting to get on, the load will be better spread out.