cost for heating control upgrades

patrickspicture

hi. the timer on our boiler die and i had wanted to replace it with an evohome controller. found it online was going to order it and have electrician fit it, but the remembered about the 600 euro to upgrade heating controls.
I went back to the site and priced the whole kit that controls the hot water and trvs and it came to less the 800 when converted to euros and adding a bit on top "cause exchange rates are always more then google says".
i called the 1 company that comes up when you search for honeywell evohome ireland and asked for exactly the same thing i priced online for less then 800 and they gave me a price of before the grant 2100 then 1500 with the grant. i did not price the 2 motorized valves or the 3 or 4 trv valves i needed, but wouldn't think they would be more then 200.
i am not a plumber but this seems extremely expensive, materials come to 1000 that makes the labor 1100 to do what should be a fairly simple and strait forward job.

i am on a bit of a rant but really want to know if it really does cost that much to install 2 zones "hw and centeral heating" and 4 trv valves.

thank you.

Dtp1979

Did you just price the basic materials needed for the job? Was labour included ?

ted1

patrickspicture wrote: »

hi. the timer on our boiler die and i had wanted to replace it with an evohome controller. found it online was going to order it and have electrician fit it, but the remembered about the 600 euro to upgrade heating controls.
I went back to the site and priced the whole kit that controls the hot water and trvs and it came to less the 800 when converted to euros and adding a bit on top "cause exchange rates are always more then google says".
i called the 1 company that comes up when you search for honeywell evohome ireland and asked for exactly the same thing i priced online for less then 800 and they gave me a price of before the grant 2100 then 1500 with the grant. i did not price the 2 motorized valves or the 3 or 4 trv valves i needed, but wouldn't think they would be more then 200.
i am not a plumber but this seems extremely expensive, materials come to 1000 that makes the labor 1100 to do what should be a fairly simple and strait forward job.

i am on a bit of a rant but really want to know if it really does cost that much to install 2 zones "hw and centeral heating" and 4 trv valves.

thank you.

Just join electric Ireland and get them to get Install a NEST you'll never get the payback from spending so much on zoning.

Walter2016

So you just called ONE company and compared them against ONE online quote.

Call 2-3 plumbers, get them to see what you need and get them to quote the job.

I got a complete new oil system with 3 zone controls last year and total bill was €3200 including boiler. (large rural house with 17rads)

But was quoted up to €4500.

Its called "shopping around".

patrickspicture

thanks for the replying.

to answer everyone,
i priced the materials online. and deducted that from the price i was given to figure out labor for the company.

the company i called was the electric ireland one and i would like a nest and the cost is only like 50 euro more to get an evohome setup with the same features as a nest but adding the ability to add loads of extras.

i have 4 rooms that are cold and one room that gets really cold or really hot so i wanted to use the smart trvs and in those areas to control the boiler.

the rest of the house is fine so i can use regular trvs as slaves to the system.

and finally i am shopping around but i have no luck getting them to return calls.

ted1

patrickspicture wrote: »

thanks for the replying.

to answer everyone,
i priced the materials online. and deducted that from the price i was given to figure out labor for the company.

the company i called was the electric ireland one and i would like a nest and the cost is only like 50 euro more to get an evohome setup with the same features as a nest but adding the ability to add loads of extras.

i have 4 rooms that are cold and one room that gets really cold or really hot so i wanted to use the smart trvs and in those areas to control the boiler.

the rest of the house is fine so i can use regular trvs as slaves to the system.

and finally i am shopping around but i have no luck getting them to return calls.

Can you add a TRV to all rads? I was under the impression the one should be always on

Dtp1979

Walter2016 wrote: »

So you just called ONE company and compared them against ONE online quote.

Call 2-3 plumbers, get them to see what you need and get them to quote the job.

I got a complete new oil system with 3 zone controls last year and total bill was €3200 including boiler. (large rural house with 17rads)

But was quoted up to €4500.

Its called "shopping around".

Yes, because the cheapest quote is always the best.

Dardania

ted1 wrote: »

patrickspicture wrote: »

thanks for the replying.

to answer everyone,
i priced the materials online. and deducted that from the price i was given to figure out labor for the company.

the company i called was the electric ireland one and i would like a nest and the cost is only like 50 euro more to get an evohome setup with the same features as a nest but adding the ability to add loads of extras.

i have 4 rooms that are cold and one room that gets really cold or really hot so i wanted to use the smart trvs and in those areas to control the boiler.

the rest of the house is fine so i can use regular trvs as slaves to the system.

and finally i am shopping around but i have no luck getting them to return calls.

Can you add a TRV to all rads? I was under the impression the one should be always on

You can do that, provided there's an automatic bypass on the boiler, so that it can still get a circulate of flow water back to the return side even with everything in the field closed.

It's a requirement of the SEAI grant that an auto bypass be fitted. Many oil boilers don't come with one by default, but most gas boilers do.

In old school systems, they wouldn't necessarily have fitted an auto bypass and instead leave one rad "wild" (as an old school mech engineer described it to me) so as to overcome the problem of no return flow-as you were thinking.


To OP: fitting hearing controls to the (good) standard that SEAI prescribe is fairly involved work. May bring on angst from some plumbers and sparks on this, but many of them aren't experienced with it at all - just look at all of the houses built during the boom and how poor the controls are (although the sparks and plumbers that frequent boards, and involved here are more than able to do it-problem is they're a small minority)

SEAI have a contractor search function on their website of accredited installers - maybe give that a go. As there's more to it than just fitting TRVs and a controller, as you're finding out with some valves, possible auto bypasses, stat on the cylinder, wiring all of these etc.
it is well worth it however. A few years ago I did some calcs on it - for spending 1500 on controls in a 3 bed semi to SEAI standard, the energy saving was equivalent to external insulation, except the controls had a pay back of 3 years versus 17

ted1

Dardania wrote: »

it is well worth it however. A few years ago I did some calcs on it - for spending 1500 on controls in a 3 bed semi to SEAI standard, the energy saving was equivalent to external insulation, except the controls had a pay back of 3 years versus 17

I live in a bog standard 3 bed semi d built in 84, my heating bill is only about 600 for the year. That's with 5 of us in the house. We have no zones on the heating system, do either the rads and the copper hot water cylinder is on (lagging jacket loosely thrown over it) we only need heating from mid September to march/April we use electric shower in the summer.
I think that your figures may be slightly off.

patrickspicture

thanks for all the replies.
we currently have old trvs on most the radiators, missing them in the bathrooms and extension room. 2 i can't remove so they probably need replacing and the bathrooms would be good to get smart ones to control time not temp. trvs don't work well in bathrooms but, nothing dries when the heat isn't on so having them kick on for an hr would be good even if we don't need the heat.

it is an oil burner and probably does have a "wild rad", we have a pump for showers so need the heat on all year and with the radiator bypass valve closed i can feel heat coming from only one rad and the rest stone cold.

i will try more plumbers from the list on monday and see what they get back with. it isn't a cheap job and i was expecting it to come in around 1500 excluding grant. and was surprised that it would come in 600 more then i thought it would.

Dardania

ted1 wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

it is well worth it however. A few years ago I did some calcs on it - for spending 1500 on controls in a 3 bed semi to SEAI standard, the energy saving was equivalent to external insulation, except the controls had a pay back of 3 years versus 17

I live in a bog standard 3 bed semi d built in 84, my heating bill is only about 600 for the year. That's with 5 of us in the house. We have no zones on the heating system, do either the rads and the copper hot water cylinder is on (lagging jacket loosely thrown over it) we only need heating from mid September to march/April we use electric shower in the summer.
I think that your figures may be slightly off.

Not to derail the thread too far, but yeah, my figures could well be off - i calculated them using the SEAI DEAP program, which has it's flaws (e.g. it makes assumptions about people in the house, room temperature setpoints, and only includes for building services energy). Also, it was based on oil heating which is pricier per kWh than gas - almost double the cost I think?
I did notice that the shift from electric to oil for water heating had a beneficial impact.
Reports attached

And I also mis-remembered the pay back periods - looking back at my calc:

Leave as is (electric water heating, no insulation, no heating controls, no wall vents)
BER: E2
Approx energy costs:
Elec 4,109kWh @ 0.20/kWh = 821.80 per year
Oil 24,482 @ 0.09/kWh = 2,203.38 per year
Total: 3,025.18 per year in building services energy costs

Insulation & Ventilation
BER: E1
Approx energy costs:
Elec 4,109kWh @ 0.20/kWh = 821.80 per year
Oil 18,644 @ 0.09/kWh = 1,677.96 per year
Total: 2,499.76 per year in building services energy costs
Saving of 525.42 per annum from present state (~ 20 - 22 year payback at 11k for insulation & ventilation?)

Heating Controls & Ventilation (oil for water heating)
BER: D2
Approx energy costs:
Elec 1,162kWh @ 0.20/kWh = 232.40 per year
Oil 24,659 @ 0.09/kWh = 2,219.31 per year
Total: 2,241.71 per year in building services energy costs
Saving of 573.47 per annum from present state (~5 or 6 year payback @ 3k for controls & ventilation?)

Insulation, Ventilation & Heating Controls
BER: C3
Approx energy costs:
Elec 1,162kWh @ 0.20/kWh = 232.40 per year
Oil 17,107 @ 0.09/kWh = 1,539.63 per year
Total: 1,772.03 per year in building services energy costs
Saving of 1253.15 per annum from present state (~11 year payback @ 14k?)

ted1

Dardania wrote: »

Not to derail the thread too far, but yeah, my figures could well be off - i calculated them using the SEAI DEAP program, which has it's flaws (e.g. it makes assumptions about people in the house, room temperature setpoints, and only includes for building services energy). Also, it was based on oil heating which is pricier per kWh than gas - almost double the cost I think?
I did notice that the shift from electric to oil for water heating had a beneficial impact.
Reports attached

And I also mis-remembered the pay back periods - looking back at my calc:

Leave as is (electric water heating, no insulation, no heating controls, no wall vents)
BER: E2
Approx energy costs:
Elec 4,109kWh @ 0.20/kWh = 821.80 per year
Oil 24,482 @ 0.09/kWh = 2,203.38 per year
Total: 3,025.18 per year in building services energy costs

Insulation & Ventilation
BER: E1
Approx energy costs:
Elec 4,109kWh @ 0.20/kWh = 821.80 per year
Oil 18,644 @ 0.09/kWh = 1,677.96 per year
Total: 2,499.76 per year in building services energy costs
Saving of 525.42 per annum from present state (~ 20 - 22 year payback at 11k for insulation & ventilation?)

Heating Controls & Ventilation (oil for water heating)
BER: D2
Approx energy costs:
Elec 1,162kWh @ 0.20/kWh = 232.40 per year
Oil 24,659 @ 0.09/kWh = 2,219.31 per year
Total: 2,241.71 per year in building services energy costs
Saving of 573.47 per annum from present state (~5 or 6 year payback @ 3k for controls & ventilation?)

Insulation, Ventilation & Heating Controls
BER: C3
Approx energy costs:
Elec 1,162kWh @ 0.20/kWh = 232.40 per year
Oil 17,107 @ 0.09/kWh = 1,539.63 per year
Total: 1,772.03 per year in building services energy costs
Saving of 1253.15 per annum from present state (~11 year payback @ 14k?)

The DEAP it a very flawed system. I may be mistaking but it uses constant temperature of 20 degrees while SEAi and other bodies recommend a bedroom temperature of 14-16 while sleeping and then doesn't Take in periods that the house is empty

Elec isn't 20c/kWh

Dardania

ted1 wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Not to derail the thread too far, but yeah, my figures could well be off - i calculated them using the SEAI DEAP program, which has it's flaws (e.g. it makes assumptions about people in the house, room temperature setpoints, and only includes for building services energy). Also, it was based on oil heating which is pricier per kWh than gas - almost double the cost I think?
I did notice that the shift from electric to oil for water heating had a beneficial impact.
Reports attached

And I also mis-remembered the pay back periods - looking back at my calc:

Leave as is (electric water heating, no insulation, no heating controls, no wall vents)
BER: E2
Approx energy costs:
Elec 4,109kWh @ 0.20/kWh = 821.80 per year
Oil 24,482 @ 0.09/kWh = 2,203.38 per year
Total: 3,025.18 per year in building services energy costs

Insulation & Ventilation
BER: E1
Approx energy costs:
Elec 4,109kWh @ 0.20/kWh = 821.80 per year
Oil 18,644 @ 0.09/kWh = 1,677.96 per year
Total: 2,499.76 per year in building services energy costs
Saving of 525.42 per annum from present state (~ 20 - 22 year payback at 11k for insulation & ventilation?)

Heating Controls & Ventilation (oil for water heating)
BER: D2
Approx energy costs:
Elec 1,162kWh @ 0.20/kWh = 232.40 per year
Oil 24,659 @ 0.09/kWh = 2,219.31 per year
Total: 2,241.71 per year in building services energy costs
Saving of 573.47 per annum from present state (~5 or 6 year payback @ 3k for controls & ventilation?)

Insulation, Ventilation & Heating Controls
BER: C3
Approx energy costs:
Elec 1,162kWh @ 0.20/kWh = 232.40 per year
Oil 17,107 @ 0.09/kWh = 1,539.63 per year
Total: 1,772.03 per year in building services energy costs
Saving of 1253.15 per annum from present state (~11 year payback @ 14k?)

The DEAP it a very flawed system. I may be mistaking but it uses constant temperature of 20 degrees while SEAi and other bodies recommend a bedroom temperature of 14-16 while sleeping and then doesn't Take in periods that the house is empty

Elec isn't 20c/kWh

You're right for sure, it's not a perfect calculator of energy at all in the assumptions it makes.

I did the above analysis a few years ago, to talk a family member out of blowing the guts of their renovation budget on EWI, when there was low hanging fruit like controls upgrades that would leave them spare money to do other less needed, but quality of life improving, works in house.

I was having a hard time convincing them on the merits of controls upgrades (and ventilation) as it's not an immediatley graspable topic (whereas with EWI, it's easy to understand that soft warm material around a house will make it feel cosier...)

I managed to convinve them, and fitted in Feb time some TRVs, tap stat, bypass and programmable thermostat for them, and from a limited run time before summer, they were quite happy with the cosiness factor. Will be interested to see their reports this winter...

I do find with the DEAP calc in my own home, that it was within ~5% of the actual consumption over a year...however as you note the presumptions DEAP makes are important. In our case, I had a setback temp of 18C overnight, and a daytime temp of 20C, and the house was occupied constantly, or near enough (wife was at home with newborn). I'm sure now, that the little one is bigger, and they're out more, that our real consumption is a bit less...and I could put the overnight setback to 17C. I was a very concerned first time father following the temp ranges on a child's sleeping bag to try neither overheat not overcool a little one!
I would be concerned about going 14C anyway - a bit too close to the dew point in Ireland (for condensation etc.) - I'm sure 14C dry bulb is fine, but when you take into account RH...could cause condensation.

nevertheless the DEAP numbers were close enough for government work in my view.

With the electricity cost per kWh, I always use the SEAI numbers: http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Statistics_Publications/Fuel_Cost_Comparison/
which blend in the standing charges etc. as far as I know... I'm not 100% sure that it's fair to do the calc like that - is the first use of electricity in a house for the building services elements?
Also, when talking in terms of possibly 22 year paybacks...it's somewhat fair to take a higher than norm kWh cost...

ted1

16 deg is what SEAI recommend. http://www.seai.ie/Power_of_One/FAQ/Energy_Efficiency/What_is_an_ideal_room_temperature_in_a_home_.html

For humidity the ideal RH is between 40-60% which most houses would be.

TBH I don't see any real advantage with fitting TRVs
All our bedrooms are occupied so tend to be at the same temperature. So a TRV in each room is useless. The other rooms radiators are scaled accordingly.

As for blending in standing charges , they are constant and unavoidable and including them in comparisons only skews the results.*
*with the exception of gas, as people will have electricity regardless of their heating costs yet may not not have gas for heating so the standing charge is avoidable

Dardania

ted1 wrote: »

16 rev is what SEAI recommend. http://www.seai.ie/Power_of_One/FAQ/Energy_Efficiency/What_is_an_ideal_room_temperature_in_a_home_.html

For humidity the ideal RH is between 40-60% which most houses would be.

TBH I don't see any real advantage with fitting TRVs
All our bedrooms are occupied so tend to be at the same temperature. So a TRV in each room is useless. The other rooms radiators are scaled accordingly.

As for blending in standing charges , they are constant and unavoidable and including them in comparisons only skews the results.*
*with the exception of gas, as people will have electricity regardless of their heating costs yet may not not have gas for heating so the standing charge is avoidable

I don't agree with you RE the TRVs being useless - it's very easy to overheat a room e.g. if the radiator outputs a constant kW of heat, but there is different heat loss rate from room...you can do a lot of overheating until the main hosue thermostat responds...
Also, the sizing of the rads versus the heat loss rates doesn't tend to be a most precise art - often times commerical issues come to play (e.g. wholesaler has a load of 1 type of rad in stock - so all rooms get the same size rad...)
Maybe you have a more local thermostat to do the bedroom area as a general...that would negate the need for TRVs somewhat I agree

hollywoodhoppy

patrickspicture wrote: »

hi. the timer on our boiler die and i had wanted to replace it with an evohome controller. found it online was going to order it and have electrician fit it, but the remembered about the 600 euro to upgrade heating controls.
I went back to the site and priced the whole kit that controls the hot water and trvs and it came to less the 800 when converted to euros and adding a bit on top "cause exchange rates are always more then google says".
i called the 1 company that comes up when you search for honeywell evohome ireland and asked for exactly the same thing i priced online for less then 800 and they gave me a price of before the grant 2100 then 1500 with the grant. i did not price the 2 motorized valves or the 3 or 4 trv valves i needed, but wouldn't think they would be more then 200.
i am not a plumber but this seems extremely expensive, materials come to 1000 that makes the labor 1100 to do what should be a fairly simple and strait forward job.

i am on a bit of a rant but really want to know if it really does cost that much to install 2 zones "hw and centeral heating" and 4 trv valves.

thank you.

Did you progress with the honeywell evo after? I am in a very similar situation currently

patrickspicture

I did. I ordered the control unit and 8 radiator valves from theevohomeshop for around 720 and paid 30 for electrician to install the boiler relay. I could of got away with 4trvs and used regular digital trvs in some places but the pound was really cheap so spent for the extra trvs.
Way better then the 2k + the installers were looking for.

It was easy to setup and works very well. I will get the hot water system installed in spring, it makes more then enough hot water now that it is cold outside. If your heating is setup with zones you can setup the system to use thermostats and relays instead of the trvs.