Club Groups - how to structure

Andalucia

looking for some info on how other club members on here structure the group spins

in particular, what pace are the group spins aimed at those just doing sportives/A4 racing and how do you avoid all spins turning into strava segment chases

geros29

This is every clubs achilles heel.a few clubs around here are using colour system where white is slow pace(22kph average) amber is medium (25kph average)red is the faster spin 30 kph.you do need to have the numbers showing up to each group to make it work.you will never ever keep everyone happy though!

Andalucia

numbers aren't the problem, the issues is the group that's meant to be 30kph is now hitting 32-33kph on a regular basis, putting some others in group under pressure, also means that those in the 28kph group don't want to step up to next group

geros29

Andalucia wrote: »

numbers aren't the problem, the issues is the group that's meant to be 30kph is now hitting 32-33kph on a regular basis, putting some others in group under pressure, also means that those in the 28kph group don't want to step up to next group

Tough one alright.have to say we having a similar prob.the main culprits are going racing next year so kinda hoping that will sort it out.would say.maybe have a chat prior to the next spin with the group and put across what you just mentioned here.

Chips Lovell

Any mickey measuring contests should be greeted to with copious amounts of shouting, ridicule and public shaming. They won't do it again.

Esroh

I am only going on my own experience but I honestly think it comes down to ride leaders/ road captain/patron whatever you want to call it.
We name designated leaders of each group at the start of the year. They pick the route, (if not out they nominate someone else). They call the shots re, pace, regrouping , efforts , whatever is appropriate at the time of year and if someone is not happy its Tough Sh#t. Having someone to shout Ease Up rather than the suffering having to admit defeat puts the warriors back in their boxes.
Group riding etiquette and rules are set out when winter spins commence and it becomes second nature. Thats not to say we don't have the days where it falls apart.

Brian?

Esroh wrote: »

I am only going on my own experience but I honestly think it comes down to ride leaders/ road captain/patron whatever you want to call it.
We name designated leaders of each group at the start of the year. They pick the route, (if not out they nominate someone else). They call the shots re, pace, regrouping , efforts , whatever is appropriate at the time of year and if someone is not happy its Tough Sh#t. Having someone to shout Ease Up rather than the suffering having to admit defeat puts the warriors back in their boxes.
Group riding etiquette and rules are set out when winter spins commence and it becomes second nature. Thats not to say we don't have the days where it falls apart.

This sounds perfect. One voice calling the shots keeps egos in check. If anyone is unhappy the pace is too slow they're welcome to tip off ahead on their own.

I've recently stopped cycling with a group because there was nominated leader and the biggest ego set the pace. Which resulted in the slowest lad getting dropped repeatedly. This was a supposedly "no drop, no man left behind" group. I got sick of dropping off to encourage and pace up the guy dropped. For groups like this it's essential to have a strong personality who enforces the rules.

It's years since I trained in a competitive group. But again, one person in charge enforces the rules and everyone obeys or finds a different group next week.

I've ridden with well organised groups and it's a pleasure to be involved in. I've ridden in poorly organised groups and it's a nightmare, I'd rather ride alone.

wirelessdude01

Within our club from the kinda beginners group all the way up to the A1 racing training group each group has a number of nominated spin leaders. On any given spin they call the shots. Especially in the various racing groups they call when an interval occurs, how long for, when an easy period is and so on. Even within these groups there will be a difference in ability but if you get dropped during an interval or on a hill it is expected that you will be able to catch back on during the subsequent easy/rest period. Strava hunting is not tolerated in any of the groups I spin with. It takes a strong leader to enforce this and leaders should be given the title under the clear understanding that what they say is the last word on everything.

Andalucia

I somehow ended up with the job as the group leader - all I'm getting out of it is abuse, might try this approach and see if it has any impact, thanks

Wishbone Ash

My club has a respected road captain who keeps us in check when we're getting frisky at the front. It's generally acceptable to do a climb/descent at a faster rate if desired but we always regroup again at the top/bottom.

The road captain also decides the route and coffee stop.

nilhg

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

My club has a respected road captain who keeps us in check when we're getting frisky at the front. It's generally acceptable to do a climb/descent at a faster rate if desired but we always regroup again at the top/bottom.

The road captain also decides the route and coffee stop.

Pretty much this with us, but maybe only the biggest climb of the day, we'd try and keep it together apart from that. If a few eager beavers slip off the front someone will usually ease off the pace a little in the rest of the bunch till the lads get lonely/notice they're on their own and come back, once or twice it's happened that those lads didn't know the route and go the wrong way.....

In a mixed group if anyone wantss to do intervals they'll usually drop out the back of the group and chase back on.

Unknown Soldier

Esroh wrote: »

I am only going on my own experience but I honestly think it comes down to ride leaders/ road captain/patron whatever you want to call it.
We name designated leaders of each group at the start of the year. They pick the route, (if not out they nominate someone else). They call the shots re, pace, regrouping , efforts , whatever is appropriate at the time of year and if someone is not happy its Tough Sh#t. Having someone to shout Ease Up rather than the suffering having to admit defeat puts the warriors back in their boxes.
Group riding etiquette and rules are set out when winter spins commence and it becomes second nature. Thats not to say we don't have the days where it falls apart.

^^

I was going to say "Discipline" but I think the above has it covered, mostly.

If the group has a set sort of speed (rules/etiquette)... then someone needs to keep it that way.

North Korea style.

Macy0161

Our club has nominated group leaders. Only in it a year, but can only think of once we really got carried away. If someone wants to go faster, they should be told to move up.

Generally it's regroup after climbs and/ or descents. The club has a coach, so any other efforts are specified before hand, and regroup after.

There's one sprint that pops up on routes. Near the end, everyone knows about it, so it's fair game. It's only a couple of K from home, but generally there's a regrouping afterwards as everyone has gone for it and emptied the tank!

Harrybelafonte

Andalucia wrote: »

I somehow ended up with the job as the group leader - all I'm getting out of it is abuse, might try this approach and see if it has any impact, thanks

Pretty bad that members of your own club treat you like that.

I'm often one of the gobshktes who starts upping the pace. More from not paying attention to the speedo than arrogance but I'm very quickly put in my place by all in thd group. One thing that happens in our club is that the guys who are itching to go faster are let lose a few km from the coffee stop and can race away and Mickey measure before the cafe regrouping.

Wishbone Ash

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

... that the guys who are itching to go faster are let lose a few km from the coffee stop and can race away...

'First there buys the coffee' - that will sort them out!

(I'm often guilty myself of upping the pace but now I leave that to Mercian Pro! )

Esroh

Andalucia wrote: »

I somehow ended up with the job as the group leader - all I'm getting out of it is abuse, might try this approach and see if it has any impact, thanks

I've been leader of the 25kph and 28kph groups over the years especially during the summers. So you can end up with mixed bunches especially having lots of Winter Hibernators getting back out who often like to push on. We would have a Nobody get left behind policy and everyone is told they may get a push if being dropped. A leader can tell anyone he thinks strong enough to drop back and do the pushing.
I had 3 things for myself to do to get control.
1. Leave exactly at the stated time. It shows your calling the shots and you are at the front leaving town.
2. I Rotated everyone in the group at short intervals during the warm up to get everyone on song.
3. I rotated the weak links off the front at short intervals and those power-rangers even quicker if they were forgetting about the group.

As said above . Let the handbrake off at a set distance before stop and home .

Good luck with it. Its a rewarding experience when you see things coming together

Andalucia

Esroh wrote: »

I've been leader of the 25kph and 28kph groups over the years especially during the summers. So you can end up with mixed bunches especially having lots of Winter Hibernators getting back out who often like to push on. We would have a Nobody get left behind policy and everyone is told they may get a push if being dropped. A leader can tell anyone he thinks strong enough to drop back and do the pushing.
I had 3 things for myself to do to get control.
1. Leave exactly at the stated time. It shows your calling the shots and you are at the front leaving town.
2. I Rotated everyone in the group at short intervals during the warm up to get everyone on song.
3. I rotated the weak links off the front at short intervals and those power-rangers even quicker if they were forgetting about the group.

As said above . Let the handbrake off at a set distance before stop and home .

Good luck with it. Its a rewarding experience when you see things coming together

some good advice in a few posts, including this, so thanks to all

I quite enjoy choosing routes and mixing it up a bit - someone else did it for long enough, so fair enough to take on a bit of responsibility

issue is really stemming from real racers, who should be going off on their own or together slotting in to the group

the pace automatically goes up because the lad on the inside sees these racers and somehow feels the need to to their turn at near limit, repeats a few times along the line etc and pace has shot up

need to get a handle on it, so will see it some of the suggestions make an impact this weekend

JK.BMC

Andalucia wrote: »

some good advice in a few posts, including this, so thanks to all

I quite enjoy choosing routes and mixing it up a bit - someone else did it for long enough, so fair enough to take on a bit of responsibility

issue is really stemming from real racers, who should be going off on their own or together slotting in to the group

the pace automatically goes up because the lad on the inside sees these racers and somehow feels the need to to their turn at near limit, repeats a few times along the line etc and pace has shot up

need to get a handle on it, so will see it some of the suggestions make an impact this weekend

Ah this ould chestnut again!

Firstly, fair play to you for taking on a leadership role; and in the grand Irish 'hurler-on-the-ditch' tradition, you end up getting abuse and hassle from those who won't put themselves forward but prefer to knock those who do.

Advice above is good- I might add a few points from my own experience.

1) Group leaders like you have to lead by example- you have to be a strong character who is fit and skilled on the bike; you absolutely must have earned the respect of your cycling peers to lead effectively. Competing in proper road racing events, at any level, will undoubtedly help in this regard. You don't have to have won any races, but you surely must understand pace/group dynamics or else you will have problems.

2) Not everybody will like you- in fact, some will downright hate you for calling the shots but hey, the club and the group is bigger than any one or two such people.

3) Keep the shouting/calling/roaring to a minimum and instead encourage good etiquette and style on the road; don't be afraid to tell people when they are out of line; but don't overdo it. Irish MAMIL don't like being told what to do sometimes. Especially from newby group leader who doesn't have 8 million metres climbed on strava this season etc....

4) The issue of 'racers' who turn up to 25kmh/28kmh club spins and then rip the legs off everybody else, thus causing hassle, is easily solved. Firstly, these guys aren't racing cyclists- they are d1ckheads. Pure and simple. Secondly, tell them to hump off. Just do it. Trust me, it might be in everybodys best interest. They might thank you in time. And if they don't, then forget about it. Things will move on and so will everybody else. With any degree of luck, they will create their own club. Win-Win.

5) Establish what your group dynamic is; don't be afraid to explain things to those who dont get the group ethic. It takes time to fit together- we all have different personalities.

6) Smile. Don't take it too seriously. But there is a competitive little boy in every adult male cyclist out there. Be careful with him- just be sure he knows who is boss on the road. It is you, not him.

Allabaah

Andalucia wrote: »

I somehow ended up with the job as the group leader - all I'm getting out of it is abuse, might try this approach and see if it has any impact, thanks

I hate to say it but classic behaviour from the non volunteering fraternity. Good on you and stick to your guns!

Looking for insights as well around pushing cyclists either up or down to the different speed Groups to match their ability and maintaining group integrity.

@Andalucia great discussion , thanks.

L'Enfer du Nord

How much is terrain a consideration on speeds?

First time I went on an organised group ride it was a massive group of over 50. I think the speed was 25 km/h, maybe 27 km/h. I only had one spell on the front. The main thing on my mind was 'maintain the speed' so I went at the speed we had been going at, say 25 km/h. Thing is my turn at the front coincided with two small hills on what had been a flat run. I maintained the speed with relative ease since the hills were only a few 100 meters long and not too steep. I was also familiar with the hills so that made it easier to judge the effort need.

Anyway half way up the second (steeper) hill and there were crys of 'ease up', I've no problem with this, however on X km/h average speed group it can't always be that easy to judge what speed you should be going at on uneven terrain (downhill too!).

Esroh

L'Enfer du Nord wrote: »

How much is terrain a consideration on speeds?

First time I went on an organised group ride it was a massive group of over 50. I think the speed was 25 km/h, maybe 27 km/h. I only had one spell on the front. The main thing on my mind was 'maintain the speed' so I went at the speed we had been going at, say 25 km/h. Thing is my turn at the front coincided with two small hills on what had been a flat run. I maintained the speed with relative ease since the hills were only a few 100 meters long and not too steep. I was also familiar with the hills so that made it easier to judge the effort need.

Anyway half way up the second (steeper) hill and there were crys of 'ease up', I've no problem with this, however on X km/h average speed group it can't always be that easy to judge what speed you should be going at on uneven terrain (downhill too!).

Average speeds are guidelines. 25kph group might be doing 28k on the flat, 16 on a ramp and 40 on a down hill. Your never going to travel any route at a set speed. But thats where a Leader has to be strong and call Ease Up to the front.
I presume 50 was in a Sportive/Charity ride. In a Club Spin you might call for a regroup at the top rather than ease up.

Eamonnator

Una Duce, Una Voce.
Everything else follows.

Wishbone Ash

Eamonnator wrote: »

Una Duce, Una Voce.
Everything else follows.

You're putting images of Mara into my head!

wirelessdude01

As we say in our racing groups it is all about maintaining the effort and not worrying about speeds when doing an interval on a drag or hill.

Blackgrape

[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]An excellent article on the subject[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Galibier Sunday spin Etiquette[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A whispered code of behaviour helps our community pedal in rotund, harmony together. Not just an arbitrary set of rigid rules concerning the proper dress for racing, but bike protocol, to put order to all cycling-good-manners. Customs introduced, to combat the reality that some cyclists are childish, egotistical numptys. Cycling Etiquette is simply proper consideration for the other cyclists.[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We cyclists are very individual, indeed a bit odd; it is why we didn t go in for team sports in maturity. Odd, and by a large loners, in the animal world we are the Panda. This, squad of one mindset can introduce an attitude of selfishness and arrogance. A disregard for other abilities. Cyclists who appear at the Sunday morning spin with evil intent on mislaying the children and infirm on the first climb, proclaiming their self worth. These weak oppressors blame the bike, the tyres, the road surface, the wind, and the tyres again, when they are under pressure. A core of marshmallow.[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We cyclists have the personal strength not to be sheep. Never run with the herd. The intellectual power to decide, no I don t want to kick ball or chase one for 18 holes. I want to do something extremely hard and with few rewards. So we are: Odd but in a beautiful way. This in no way excuses these bad manners. This winter, 9 miles into a club spin, I felt a collection of sweat caress my brow, in artic conditions. Unusual, I thought, and then turned around to see the bunch of 30 cyclists split demographically in ones and twos into the horizon. Their separation was distance based on age and borrowed bike. Not 20 minutes ago this weary string was a united group of cyclists. I looked forward to see the catalyst of the destruction: two wannabes wall pissing at the front. As strong individuals, in a detached sport, the only situation we gather as a brightly dressed tribe is this club run. At a race: it is dog eats dog, in a training chain gang: last man standing, but a club spin where different capabilities congregate in human-required friendship, cycling manners must come into play. Regardless of where I have cycled on the planet, where two or more people are gathered in the name of communal training, cave man instincts prevail and one of the group wishes to prove dominance. I define a NUMPTY, as a person(s) who wishes to demonstrate to a lesser, younger, heavier cyclist that they are fitter, stronger. The alpha male in Lycra. A childlike cry for attention normally belongs in the jungle or playground. The result is anger, resentment, split bunch and a weak club. No bonds or friendships cemented, just souls and dreams stepped on.[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It seems there is no direct protocol issued, and that the training run should evolve, weekly according to their rank or position or watt output of the strongest. Yes, we train to be strong. But the simple truth is that the club run is not the proving ground. Racing is. If you want to prove how good you are, strap a number on, shave the legs and get your photo in the paper. Half-wheeling a 69-year-old, multiple by-pass veteran won t win you any medals; or friends.[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The name club run is the key. This chance for cyclists, of all abilities in the area comes together to enjoy a mutual hobby. The young receiving experience form the old. The old, passing on war stories of riding to races with punctures; racing and riding home with no tyres. Ancient, compulsory punishment pre-1971 for not winning. The weekly training spins are the club. United by name and jersey under one banner. An alliance with associates, then divided by the assassin.[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Who sees a victory in an eleven year old new comer stopped, at the side of the road, red faced and tears dripping on fresh bar tape: wondering why he ever took up the sport. It is even poor training for the bully. The longest training cycle available each week should be allocated to the long level two spins. This preparation ride is required regularly to build or maintain the efficiency of the cardio system. To learn to breath proficiently when the body is under moderate pressure and to educate our system to metabolize energy from the fat store. A steady long, continual effort, is proven best. Best for everyone. An opportunity for all to enjoy the long, base spin together. Take pleasure in our sport, don t fill it with resentment.[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If the club spin destroyer want harder training, all level three work should be done in small groups of similar ability. On climbs if they want a work out; stick it in the 12 sprocket and sit. Same speed as the group with a bit of power preparation. A urine test for these few would reveal positive for insecurity and self-importance. Show me a club run wrecker (CRW) that ever won a race.[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Club Protocol. It s down in writing, it has been voted on and every one will pass the following recommendations as they don t see them selves as guilty.[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A club run captain shall be appointed, experienced, ex-racer slightly overweight. His whistle will control speed and direction.[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Route will be planned in advance, allowing latecomers to plan a catch up, with the length increasing with the temperature. A cut off point will be designated for shorter run. Speed will be maintained until this cut off is reached.[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If a member of the run punctures, the group will cycle for a mile, turn and return for the victim. If it s in the last 20 km, the captain will ensure he has spares, only then: forsaken.[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Half wheeling is outlawed. (Same speed but where the bars do not line up.) The cyclist enforcing pressure is to be taken away to an isolated wood and shot.[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Helmets and brakes working and fitted to the correct bit. Change on the right, up and over after 2km. keeps conversation fresh, bonds club and ears unbent.[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]New, young riders must have a relative or allocated sponsor to keep them safe and informed.[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Good decorum when meeting a friend in the street is shaking hands. When introduced, look the person in the eyes and use a firm grip to express sincerity. On the bike this changes to a How s it going? and then a compliment on weight loss, form or new component. Simple Courtesy. Try to think of others. If you want to race: get a license and use it. There will be a load of guys and girls who will relish your showing off in the early laps, the club run is a time of companionship and group camaraderie.[/font]
[font=Muli, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As prehistoric people began to interact with one another, they learned to behave in ways that made life easier and more pleasant. Don t make training spins full of shouts of steady and knock it off . Only laughter and chat and skipping gears should be heard on a Sunday morning. It s proper bike conduct. Be odd, but with consideration. It s the mark of a true cyclist. You will enjoy your sport more and your sport will enjoy you[/font]

Eamonnator

[QUOTE=A club run captain shall be appointed,[/b] experienced, ex-racer slightly overweight. His whistle will control speed and direction.[/font][/color]

If the club run captain on my Sunday group attempted to introduce a whistle, I would try and it shove it, where it would would whistle, when he farted!

L'Enfer du Nord

Esroh wrote: »

Average speeds are guidelines. 25kph group might be doing 28k on the flat, 16 on a ramp and 40 on a down hill. Your never going to travel any route at a set speed. But thats where a Leader has to be strong and call Ease Up to the front.
I presume 50 was in a Sportive/Charity ride. In a Club Spin you might call for a regroup at the top rather than ease up.

It was actually an amalgam of two clubs and a triathlon club. About 100 cyclists in all split into two groups, I was in the slower one. I did feel the group was too big. These inclines were pretty short so it seems reasonable to try an stick together. It's hard to see a big group of beginners/improvers sticking together on a longer harder climb. Simply because of weight there's like to be a big variance in climbing 'ability'. Especially on really steep gradients I hate the idea of going slower than as fast as I can (not very fast), its not much easier and you are prolonging the pain.

I friend of mine has recently introduced me to the concept of a 'hammer drop' which he picked up on a charity ride. Is this a common feature of group rides?

JK.BMC

L'Enfer du Nord wrote: »

It was actually an amalgam of two clubs and a triathlon club. About 100 cyclists in all split into two groups, I was in the slower one. I did feel the group was too big. These inclines were pretty short so it seems reasonable to try an stick together. It's hard to see a big group of beginners/improvers sticking together on a longer harder climb. Simply because of weight there's like to be a big variance in climbing 'ability'. Especially on really steep gradients I hate the idea of going slower than as fast as I can (not very fast), its not much easier and you are prolonging the pain.

I friend of mine has recently introduced me to the concept of a 'hammer drop' which he picked up on a charity ride. Is this a common feature of group rides?

'Hammer Drop?' Is there where some guy with a big ego and engine wants to ride everybody off his wheel?
No problem really with having a few intervals/hard efforts once everybody knows what's happening.
Great fun usually- except of course when you are a touring group in which case 'hammer drop'.'lineouts' and 'sprint finishes' seem 5o be completely at odds with what cycling is supposed to be about

L'Enfer du Nord

JK.BMC wrote: »

'Hammer Drop?' Is there where some guy with a big ego and engine wants to ride everybody off his wheel?

Pretty much, except in case of the charity ride which I didn't do myself they were all placed at tough climbs, I actually thought it was hammer blow and they were warning people where the hard bits were. Essentially it means every man for himself for a few Kms.

No problem really with having a few intervals/hard efforts once everybody knows what's happening.
Great fun usually- except of course when you are a touring group in which case 'hammer drop'.'lineouts' and 'sprint finishes' seem 5o be completely at odds with what cycling is supposed to be about

From experience it's not easy to drop someone or be dropped on the flat when you've both got panniers . They are a great equaliser.