Irish Times on what a man is: ‘I could murder, kill, rape'

TeamJesus

This article in the Irish Times males my blood boil and I'm female.

Here's just one quote:

When accusations of violence towards women are brought against men, there is always somebody who says “Oh, I’m not violent. I have complete respect for women”. That’s probably true but you also have to accept cultural ownership over the fact that you’re a man and you’re a part of this whole system.


http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/how-to-be-a-modern-man-in-ireland-irish-men-on-masculinity-feminism-and-violence-1.2803057

When Donald Trump says Mexicans are rapists everyone is rightfully up in arms, but the Irish Times is allowed to come out with this drivel so long as its directed at ALL MEN.

Icemancometh

I think you're being unfair with your accusation. That was the opinion of one of the panel, rather than an editorial opinion. There was a range of opinions expressed, and some would be the kind of thing brought up on the sexism against men thread (unequal treatment in court and in prison for example).

However. there was one line by the author I found illuminating: "None of this reflects particularly well on those of us who only have a single X chromosome." He defines his maleness through the absence of a second X chromosome, rather than the presence of a Y chromosome. It might seem petty, but I think it reflects a negative view of masculinity, defining oneself in a negative frame of mind rather than a positive frame of mind. (FWIW having a single X chromosome and no Y is a XO genotype known as Turner's syndrome, which is phenotypically female. But there's nothing unusual in a journalist being scientifically illiterate.)

Phoebas

Its hardly an Irish Times position.

The piece was a report of a panel discussion with 7 men and that was one opinion by one of the participants.
The IT are just reporting what was said, not endorsing it.

frostyjacks

If they were going to have a roundtable discussion in it, could they not have had at least one voice that didn't buy into the feminist/transgender line? It was all very one-sided.

mzungu

I think the article was an opportunity missed. For a start it was very short, and some of the questions were a little pointless. For example, asking the panel why men were prone to fighting and kicking people in the head on nights out. Unless the panel was made up of men who had done time for violent offences, then what insights could the answer give?

The air of collective responsibility was in evidence with the domestic abuse question. One of the panel said that something along the lines of 'even if we do not engage in domestic abuse, we have to ask ourselves why so many men do?' If men take collective responsibility for other men, do women take collective responsibility when domestic abuse occurs in the other direction? Or, as lesbian couples top the charts in the domestic violence stakes, does the entire lesbian community take responsibility there? There was a lot of half truths passed off as fact in some of the answers, and this is down to swallowing most of the BS that has been thrown about in opinion pieces and by lobby groups the past while.

I think something like that would be best suited to a TV show, where answers could be expanded upon in further detail.

Sleepy

mzungu, your post is making me wonder what a male version of the RTE reality show "Connected" would look like.

No doubt the usual feminazi's would end up demonising at least one of the featured guys for something or other (maybe the way he blew his nose was a perfect example of the Irish patriarchal oppression of women or some such). I'm not sure I could even trust Montrose to pick a group of guys that accurately represented Irish men though, they'd be so keen to make sure they had the usual token flamboyantly gay guy / black guy / Transgender guy / stay-at-home "Feminist" Dad / devout Catholic / Muslim etc. that the average Irish guy would struggle to see anything that resembled his own life on screen. (that said, how many "ordinary" guys would consent to that much filming and becoming a mini-celebrity for a few months?)

Done right, though, it could be a fascinating insight into the average Irish male and the challenges they face. With suicide being such a major killer of young men, a national conversation on what it is to be a man in the modern world is important imo and such a show could help play a part in that conversation.

H3llR4iser

Ah, the old "man = violent troglodyte" equation. Boils my p1ss right down - see, at 36 I've never actually gotten into a proper fight. And I worked as door staff when I was younger; Defused plenty of incendiary situations, and even quite literally "dragged" one or two guys out of them.

More incredible even, I actually never got hit by a man. Not once - maybe due to being relatively physically imposing (nothing freakish 'though, so I'm not sure), maybe due to simply not getting in a situation where that would happen. There must be something wrong with me!

Yet, I have been harassed, hit and even had objects thrown at me at the hands of women, way more than once - first taste when I was 14 or 15; Girl I liked in school, but I was clearly too uncool, nerdy and fat for her - happens.
Wasn't even being cheeky or doing anything wrong - I can take my own responsibilities. I just went to talk to her, because also, I actually never told her I liked her, let alone ask her out or something.

Yet, she thought it'd be fun to drive the point home in no uncertain terms, huge, theatrical fullforce slap that left the side of my face numb and the ear ringing; One of her rings missed my right eye by a matter of millimeters - in the general hilarity of course, because still of course, there was more or less half the school watching. Had I been of weaker character, I'd probably be some evil mastermin planning on destroying the world by now

Then there have been the fights and various accusations from partners in adult life - who also threw in the odd slap...or book!

Sorry, need to go now, the death ray charge indicator is signaling "full"

mzungu

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm not sure I could even trust Montrose to pick a group of guys that accurately represented Irish men though, they'd be so keen to make sure they had the usual token flamboyantly gay guy / black guy / Transgender guy / stay-at-home "Feminist" Dad / devout Catholic / Muslim etc. that the average Irish guy would struggle to see anything that resembled his own life on screen. (that said, how many "ordinary" guys would consent to that much filming and becoming a mini-celebrity for a few months?)

I would agree, the laws of TV entertainment dictate that unless you have some unique selling point to appeal to the masses, then the show won't sell. If any such show ever did get made, you can be damn sure each and every one would be a walking stereotype. If I'm being honest, having a TV crew following me around would be my worst nightmare, it's usually those of an exhibitionist nature that take these things on. But, like you said above, these would not represent the vast majority of guys out there who just get on with it and aren't interested in trying to push micro-celeb status.

Done right, though, it could be a fascinating insight into the average Irish male and the challenges they face. With suicide being such a major killer of young men, a national conversation on what it is to be a man in the modern world is important imo and such a show could help play a part in that conversation.

I think with the changing roles in society (more stay at home Dads/less graduating from college etc) it would be interesting to know what their take on that is. It's something that I can't ever really recall seeing or hearing their perspective (outside of the usual 'celeb' rent-a-quotes & self-promoting 'activists') on the matter.

I had to Google that 'Connected' show, had never heard of it before. But yes, something along those lines.

Pat Mustard

Rory McNab wrote:

When accusations of violence towards women are brought against men, there is always somebody who says “Oh, I’m not violent. I have complete respect for women”. That’s probably true but you also have to accept cultural ownership over the fact that you’re a man and you’re a part of this whole system.

I'd like to see him attempt a reasonable explanation of why ordinary citizens who have not committed crimes should accept personal responsibility for the crimes of others, on the basis of their gender alone.

If he feels responsibility for crimes that he has not committed, then perhaps he should think again.

Ill-conceived hand wringing notions by this McNab character.

WinnyThePoo

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/womansplaining-books-that-every-man-should-read-1.2807403#.V-qN_2mCAEQ.twitter

Continues with Womansplaining- books that every man should read

the whole article reads like parody.

johnnyskeleton

I find it very hard to get to grips with this series of puzzling articles in the Irish Times.

Presumably a series on how to be a man which purports to deal with analysing male roles in the 21st century and looking at the problems we face is a good thing. But I struggle to see where the articles dealing with that are. There are presumably experts on social issues out there who have analysed matters such as the declining academic achievements of men, the high suicide rate, divorce etc and can deal with them on a macro level.

Instead, we have a bunch of random men talking vaguely about their lives. No disrespect meant to Pat Lam, Stephen Donnolly and the like, but they are not experts in those areas, they are famous for sports and politics etc. The interviews with them are just personal puff pieces.

We then have a load of random things such as how to wear a cardigan or, I dunno, how to cook spaghetti. Which is all fine but again nothing to do with gender etc.

Then we also have a few articles which are about men's views towards feminism. Also worthy in its own way, but the question "How to be a man" probably shouldn't be answered by reference to feminism, in the way that feminists say that how to be a feminist should not be answered by reference to men!

Overall, I generally dislike the circular argument of 3rd wave feminism vs its opponents i.e. highlight domestic violence by men against women -> But women commit domestic violence against men too -> but men do it more -> but it's still not a gendered issue -> feminism isn't about gender it's about equality -> then why not say you're against domestic violence full stop -> because men are usually the perpetrators and women the victims... and so on forever and ever until the internet runs out of data storage.

This whole series has the air of trying to legitimise articles that have a gendered slant. Why can't we have interviews with athletes and politicians and stories about how to wear a jumper or someone finding it difficult to pay the bills for childcare etc without it being a thing? Or, if it does absolutely have to be a thing, why can't we hear from people actually qualified to comment on it.

Sleepy

Because what use is a gender studies degree if you can't pontificate in the national media? :rolleyes:

The Black Oil

I listened to the IT Women's podcast earlier this morning. Mark Paul, a critic of #notallmen, rape culture, feminism on Twitter and clearly not a feminist himself. Maybe he reads tGC. He's the bloke who wrote an article a few months back an got a lot of stick for it. Of course, now Rosemary McCabe is up in arms this eve.

https://twitter.com/ITWomensPodcast/status/780678515662389248
https://twitter.com/RosemaryMacCabe/status/781176393463894016 Read some of her tweets after that, including this one. The internet is a fun place.

https://twitter.com/RosemaryMacCabe/status/781177206567497728

https://storify.com/sineadredmond/not-all-men-but-more-than-en

At this stage, perhaps I need to give up reading gender/equality articles for a few weeks.

Sleepy

The article is pretty good and, rather hilariously, the negative comments utterly prove his point.

um7y1h83ge06nx

So "all men do collude in sexual harassment".

What a C U Next Tuesday as my missus would say.

Ms. McCabe - this comments might be the reason a lot of men get frustrated.

Wibbs

Jesus, some of the tweets…

So I won't deny that sometimes I seem anti men. But I've spent every day of my 31 years so far avoiding being harassed and assaulted by men

Every day. What world does this person inhabit?

and…

Why do you think I have the Mountjoy gardai on speed dial? Why do you think I stoop to tie my lace if someone walks too close?

I'll float a wild idea:
Maybe you're a woman child with an over active imagination that borders on the paranoid and neurotic, who took some unfortunate, even dodgy incidences that we all as humans go through and because of an absence of actual real world problems inflated them into a fantasy worldview that found supporters among other child adult neurotics? Just a stab in the dark like. Oh sorry should have said "stab", that would be violent and phallic and no doubt triggering. Christ.

As my granny used to say, there are more walking about than in rubber rooms. If I thought that this kinda thinking made up more than a tiny number of actual women out in the real world, I'd be moving to a desert island to be away from them. Fact is it is only a tiny number of these idiots who have yet to cut the apron stings of daddy and dorm room debates.

The Black Oil

And for the record, I still 100% maintain that all men DO collude in sexual harassment – by saying nothing.

Let's just change that to 'And for the record, I still 100% maintain that all Muslims DO collude in supporting terrorism – by saying nothing.'

Try tweeting that, Rosemary.

lazybones32

The thread tagline reminded me of a feminist webpage I visited years ago. She listed every male privilege she could think of and among them were the Right to rape and the Right to kill. It was nutjob territory but she was serious in her posting.

tritium

Unfortunately the biggest failing of the likes of the irish times and the guardian is to give an outlet/ soapbox to clowns like this and lend them some sort of faux credibility. At least with the internet theres a general understanding that any clown can and does post there. Its somewhat different when these loons can point to the "paper of record' ( never made up a story in our lives your honour...) as their promoter.

NI24

Sleepy wrote: »

The article is pretty good and, rather hilariously, the negative comments utterly prove his point.

Give me a break. He begins the article by comparing a straight white male in a Twitter debate on feminism to entering a "coop full of chickens". He's guilty of the very thing he's arguing against -- stereotyping groups of people he doesn't agree with. He does it several times in fact. Surely even you noticed the hypocrisy Sleepy?

If this is your idea of a pretty good article, then you have low standards. .

Sleepy

I suppose you're right. Comparing internet feminists to chickens is rather insulting to the poultry.

sbsquarepants

TeamJesus wrote: »

When accusations of violence towards women are brought against men, there is always somebody who says “Oh, I’m not violent. I have complete respect for women”. That’s probably true but you also have to accept cultural ownership over the fact that you’re a man and you’re a part of this whole system.

What a pile of horse shít. I'm a man and I have to do nothing of the sort.
What fúcking moron wrote this crap?

Sleepy

Cultural ownership of what system? The culture whereby if a man is seen to be violent towards a woman, other men will dive in and pummel him? We're all aware of incidents of guys getting badly beaten when trying to be the white knight in such cases (and often by the woman they're trying to defend!).

From an equality perspective, I can see an argument that this cultural hangover is something we should look at changing: a man should be no more willing to involve himself in the defence of a woman than he would be in the defence of a man in a similar scenario.