DCM 2016: how to run 3.35 without pacers?

MiketheMechanic

Hi all,
I'm looking for some advice on how best to run the DCM this year:

My previous marathons:
2012 DCM: Ran with the 4.00 pacers all the way - came in at 3.58.34
2013 DCM: Ran with the 3.50 pacers all the way - came in at 3.48.52
2015 DCM: Ran with the 3.40 pacers all the way - came in at 3.39.46

For this year's DCM, I'm hoping to do 3 hour 35 minutes.
What is the best way to achieve this, given that I've never run the marathon without (the support of) a pace group?

I am entered in Wave 1, but could drop back if required.

Thoughts??

Thanks,
MtM

TFBubendorfer

The best approach is to run as even a pace as possible. Print yourself a 3:35 pace band (e.g. from here) and keep an eye on it as you run the marathon.

You run the first mile in 8:12.
You run the second mile in 8:12.
You run the third mile in 8:12.

And so on. This will get you home in 3:35 exactly.

In reality the first mile will be slower due to congestion at the start, so you gradually make this up over the next 4/5 miles. After that you try and keep the same pace.

Obviously you'll be a few seconds slower on uphill miles and a bit faster on downhill miles.

All of that is exactly the same approach a 3:35 pacer would take, except that you have to keep your eye on the watch yourself.

average_runner

Also remember the first half of the Dublin marathon is a bit tougher than the 2nd half, so maybe go a total of 30 sec to 1 min slower in the first half.

The Davestator

I always find I run more than 26.2 so when you are working out your pace, build it in for 26.4 miles. This is the biggest lesson I have learned when trying to hit a time without pacing.

Also, build in a pee stop of 60/90 seconds if you normally have to stop

RayCun

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

The best approach is to run as even a pace as possible.
You run the first mile in 8:12.
You run the second mile in 8:12.
You run the third mile in 8:12.

And so on. This will get you home in 3:35 exactly.

Note that this is checking the time against the mile markers. if you use a garmin, your pace should be 8.09 or 8.10/mile

dublin runner

Go out with at 3.40 pace and pick it up after 10 miles. That's the toughest part of the course. Negative split all the way on that course in particular. Getting to Castleknock, feeling fresh and comfortable is the key to Dublin in my opinion.

DC.

Try & keep the 3:30 group in view at all times or even better just run with them. Much easier to run in a group than on your tod.

MiketheMechanic

Thanks everyone.
Good advice there.

How about if I started in wave 2, perhaps 2 minutes behind the 3.40 pacers, and then, running 8 min 10's approx, slowly reel them in over the opening 10 miles. This should prevent going out too fast.
Then keep the same pace and gradually pull away from the 3.40 pacers to come home in 3.35?

Or am I better off avoiding "traffic" and run even mile splits in wave 1 , albeit aiming for a 60-90 sec negative split, and run on my own the whole way around.

If the going gets tough, maybe scenarion 1 above is better?
What do people think?

MtM

trailrunner

My advise , for what it's worth .!!,
I went out 3 year ago to run 3:25 , I stayed behind the 3:30 Pacers up to mile 14 then I said I'd pass them if I felt good , BIG mistake ,,!!!
Just imagine how hard it is to squeeze your way through a wall of people that are stuck to the pacer like bugs on a bumper !!! Took me 2 mile of dodging around cars , up on footpaths and the occasional elbow from non impressed 3:30 runners that did not want to let me through . Do your own pace slip and stick to it, allow the start to be a little slower due to the crowd and then slowly pick it up .

ger664

Feck the 3:35 go out with the 3:30 guys and nail it.

Ger

Amadeus 2014

Pacers are like training wheels, great support but at some point you need to strike out on your own...

No matter if you are aiming at 3:35 or 5:35 the generic pacing advice is identical:

- Disable all fancy functions on your watch. I had my Garmin lose GPS signal midway through Berlin once and was running blind which came close to ruining my race. Use it as a stopwatch only and don't worry about heart rate, average pace, cadence or any of the other fancy metrics

- Manually lap your watch at the mile markers. You'll pace by race distance rather than distance run ensuring you track true. It also keeps you focused (associative versus disassociate running)

- Print or create a pace band that has your required mile time and cumulative time for each mile printed on it along with a bolded line for halfway. Trust me mental maths at mile 20 is not easy

- You won't be running on your own. There will be hundreds of people around you all the time and plenty of chat and banter (as well as support) all the way round

- DON'T PANIC. You will have a mile that is +20 or 30 secs at some point. It's often that the mile markers are on the nearest pole rather than the exact spot and you'll end up getting that time back. If you do start to see slippage then correct it slowly by gently picking up the pace rather than putting on a spurt

At this stage you've a few marathons under your belt and having run with three pace groups you know what pacers do. Now you just need to use that experience to be your own pacer! And good luck

RayCun

trailrunner wrote: »

My advise , for what it's worth .!!,
I went out 3 year ago to run 3:25 , I stayed behind the 3:30 Pacers up to mile 14 then I said I'd pass them if I felt good , BIG mistake ,,!!!
Just imagine how hard it is to squeeze your way through a wall of people that are stuck to the pacer like bugs on a bumper !!! Took me 2 mile of dodging around cars , up on footpaths and the occasional elbow from non impressed 3:30 runners that did not want to let me through . Do your own pace slip and stick to it, allow the start to be a little slower due to the crowd and then slowly pick it up .

You need to pick your place for something like that. Running from the canal through Crumlin is fairly tight, with only one side of the road for the race. At Walkinstown roundabout there's a big crowd, close in to the side of the road. But once you're on Cromwellsfort, you have a couple of miles of wide open road.

ArtieFufkin

MiketheMechanic wrote: »

Thanks everyone.
Good advice there.

How about if I started in wave 2, perhaps 2 minutes behind the 3.40 pacers, and then, running 8 min 10's approx, slowly reel them in over the opening 10 miles. This should prevent going out too fast.
Then keep the same pace and gradually pull away from the 3.40 pacers to come home in 3.35?

Or am I better off avoiding "traffic" and run even mile splits in wave 1 , albeit aiming for a 60-90 sec negative split, and run on my own the whole way around.

If the going gets tough, maybe scenarion 1 above is better?
What do people think?

MtM

That's your best chance for success but I would try and stay with the 3:40 guys until half way then nail the second half. The feeling of running the second half quicker and passing hundreds of runners in the last 10k is unbeatable.

kneejerk

MiketheMechanic wrote: »

Thanks everyone.
Good advice there.

How about if I started in wave 2, perhaps 2 minutes behind the 3.40 pacers, and then, running 8 min 10's approx, slowly reel them in over the opening 10 miles. This should prevent going out too fast.
Then keep the same pace and gradually pull away from the 3.40 pacers to come home in 3.35?

Or am I better off avoiding "traffic" and run even mile splits in wave 1 , albeit aiming for a 60-90 sec negative split, and run on my own the whole way around.

If the going gets tough, maybe scenarion 1 above is better?
What do people think?

MtM

Looks good but you better confirm the pacers times.

I thought 3.50 pacers were at the front of WAVE 2. If that's the case you would be 10 mins down on the 3.40 Pacers if you started Wave 2.

average_runner

ArtieFufkin wrote: »

That's your best chance for success but I would try and stay with the 3:40 guys until half way then nail the second half. The feeling of running the second half quicker and passing hundreds of runners in the last 10k is unbeatable.

Trying to pull back 5 mins in the second half of a marathon is a big ask.

a148pro

kneejerk wrote: »

Looks good but you better confirm the pacers times.

I thought 3.50 pacers were at the front of WAVE 2. If that's the case you would be 10 mins down on the 3.40 Pacers if you started Wave 2.

Does anyone know what the story with this is I have a similar concern? I'm booked for second wave but 3.30 now looks doable - am I stuck without a pacer or are there 3.30 Pacers in both waves?

Or alternatively will I be able to nip into the first wave or are they strict on that (would prefer to run at the front of the mere mortals than at the back of the elites though!)

Murph_D

There is one set 3:30 pacers and they will be in Wave 1.

From DCM FAQ:

There are 4 wave starts. 1st wave Sub 3:35, 2nd wave 3:35 to 4:05, 3rd wave 4:05 to 4:35, 4th wave 4:35+

Yes, they are strict about directing runners to their assigned waves.

a148pro

Murph_D wrote: »

There is one set 3:30 pacers and they will be in Wave 1.

From DCM FAQ:

There are 4 wave starts. 1st wave Sub 3:35, 2nd wave 3:35 to 4:05, 3rd wave 4:05 to 4:35, 4th wave 4:35+

Yes, they are strict about directing runners to their assigned waves.

Jaysus. I'm on my own so. May need a Garmin.

Singer

a148pro wrote: »

Jaysus. I'm on my own so. May need a Garmin.

Get a pace band at the expo. Registering for the Asics pacebands hasn't opened yet, keep an eye in the next week or so I guess!

a148pro

Thanks, I had tried to order it but thought I was too late.

A mate told me it would be fairly easy to skip into the first wave if I want to, can anyone comment?

Also, can anyone tell me if the route is marked in miles or kilometers or both? And are there any clocks running for the benefit of runners (trying to decide if I need a watch)

ger664

You will need a watch nothing fancy start/stop and current running time

Route is measured in Miles. The markers are placed on the nearest lamp pole and can be off but generally not by much. Key is not to panic if you find one off.
There is Markers at each 5K point also. Clocks at 10K half and either 30K or 20 mile mark. Clocks will show gun time from Wave 1 so dont know what use it will be to you.

Gavlor

Singer wrote: »

Get a pace band at the expo. Registering for the Asics pacebands hasn't opened yet, keep an eye in the next week or so I guess!

Make a pace band yourself, there bands at the expo only align to the pacer groups http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/racing/runners-world-pace-band-generator/3918.html

MiketheMechanic

Thanks for the advice everyone.

MtM

ger664

Well Done Mike Pacers are so overrated. 3:33:51

MiketheMechanic

Yep - managed it all right Ger!
Turns out it's a bit trickier to convince yourself to do 8.08 min miles at mile 23, when your legs only want to do 8.45s without a pacer to follow.
It really is "Mind over matter". Amazing how much performance depends on what goes on between your ears instead of the legs.
Pain is temporary - internet times are forever :-)

Seriously though, thanks to everyone here for the advice. It did a custom pace band and stuck to it as close as I could, and it worked very well.

MtM

trailrunner

Well done Mike ,
Something I noticed yesterday is that pacers don't work for everyone, four of us set out together to go 3:30 , we started 100m or so ahead of the 3:30 pacers , one lad got swollowed up by the 3:30 group around chesterfield ave, he likes to run negative splits for both halves,, he hit half way at 1:47 odd had to then pass the 3:30 group from mile 16-18 , he finished in 3:27 !!! That's a negative split of :07 ..!!! He said if he'd have went out with the 3:30 pacers he'd have blown up . Just shows sometimes you've to just run your own race . 😊
And yes I finished ahead of my target, 3:26 😉