Being asked to move out while damp work carried out?

loveisdivine

We've been given a quote for some damp work on our house. There is some rising damp that requires the hallway floor to be taken up so they can lay down a new damp proof membrane and for the bottom part of the walls in the hall and 2 bedrooms (out of 3) to be removed so they can apply damp proof injection.

The work should apparently take no more than 2 weeks but we were told it would be easier for everyone if we found somewhere else to stay for those 2 weeks. They said it would be stressful for us and more awkward for them as they would have to clean up every night.

The problem is we don't have anywhere to go! We have 2 cats so we can't go to a hotel (and couldn't afford it either) and we don't have family we can stay with. If we put the cats into boarding it would cost a fortune for 2 weeks and would be stressful for them too.

Basically I'm asking if it's acceptable for us to say "sorry, we can't move out, we will just have to make it work"?

I can put the cats in the garage during the day when they are working, I'll be out at work while they are there and my husband can make him self scarce too. So we won't be inconveniencing them while they work. I don't care if it's messy in the evening.

Metric Tensor

If this is your house and you are paying the contractor then he/she will do what you tell them to - within reason of course.

Yes it will be awkward - but no reason to move out unless exposure to the resin has health implications - which I haven't heard before.

Quick question - are you and your engineer sure it's "rising damp"?

loveisdivine

Well I'm not ashamed to admit I don't know an awful lot about damp. This is our first house and while I could tell just by looking that there was a damp issue, I wouldn't have been able to say what kind. I have been trying to read up on it though.

The guy came out and did a survey. You can see in the hall where the laminate flooring has started to rise in 2 places and one part of the hallway wall has that black mould discolouration to it, is damp to the touch and the plasterboard just crumbles away at the bottom of the wall. It comes no more than a foot above floor level and the stretches about 2 metres across the bottom of the wall (although it's not as high for most of that, maybe only a few inches). The bedroom that shares this part of the hallway wall has the same discolouration on that side and the floor timbers are spongey.

He said they need to take up the hall floor and remove the bottom portions of the plasterboard on the walls in order to truly know exactly what's going on.

Metric Tensor

What age is the house?

Dampness that is mistaken for "rising damp" is often a leaking pipe, blocked drain or some other localised defect.

If the only person you got out is a person who sells a specific product then he will try to sell you that product.

I 100% agree that some opening up will be required but it would be well worth having an independent expert working for you - an engineer probably - but there are other building professionals who would be experienced in this area also.

If you go that route - it will take more time, probably cost you slightly more but could save you thousands in the long run because your professional will help you pick the best long term solution and has no financial benefit from one solution over another.

Apologies if I misread the situation and you already have a professional working for you.

loveisdivine

It was built in the sixties and is on the side of a hill.

Well he is from a company that works in pest control and various types of property care like dry/wet rot, damp, condensation, waterproofing etc. They work across the country and it was one of their engineers that came out and did the survey. It's not someone selling one specific type of product, he discussed various treatment options with us so I don't feel like we're being pushed into a certain course of action. He also said that it's by no means a really huge problem and we would probably be fine for another year but at that point it would definitely need treating.

We want to get it sorted now so we can start decorating properly.

nick 56

It would be a bad idea to get work done with out getting other firms / tradesmen to look at the problem and give you an report.

Your house cost a lot don't scimp with time or money with something as important as this.

It could be something as simple as the laminate flooring not been fitted properly.

nick

loveisdivine

To be honest I've contacted about 7 different companies at this stage and this one are the only ones we've managed to get to come out to the property. All the others have either not returned calls or emails or actually made an appointment with us to come and look at the house and then not bothered showing up, my subsequent calls and emailed were dodged. These are reputable companies too, I've been absolutely appalled at the lack of service we have received.

I would also like to get a second opinion, but how am I supposed to when I can't get anyone to do it! I'm not exaggerating, it's been really hard to find someone. I've been told "sorry we don't go out that far" by companies that say they cover our county (Louth) or like I said just messed around with promised call backs or missed appointments.

At this stage we just want the work done so we can get on with decorating our house. This is the last "major" work we need to do and it's delaying everything else. We can't exactly have the rooms re plastered ready to paint when we know they will have to be taken apart again.

In fairness I did get a good feeling from the engineer. He didn't play up the issues to make it sound worse than it is or anything. He just seemed genuine and didn't want to commit to any one scenario until they get a better look. The quote he's doing will have a best case scenario price and a worst case scenario obviously depending on what they find. He also said once they open the floors they won't do anything until we've been shown exactly what's under there and gone through the options again.

It was only the suggestion that it would be better for us to move out that I was concerned with. It just seemed a bit much. Obviously if part of the process was going to be hazardous to health, we could probably clear out for 2 nights max.

Dardania

loveisdivine wrote: »

To be honest I've contacted about 7 different companies at this stage and this one are the only ones we've managed to get to come out to the property. All the others have either not returned calls or emails or actually made an appointment with us to come and look at the house and then not bothered showing up, my subsequent calls and emailed were dodged. These are reputable companies too, I've been absolutely appalled at the lack of service we have received.

I would also like to get a second opinion, but how am I supposed to when I can't get anyone to do it! I'm not exaggerating, it's been really hard to find someone. I've been told "sorry we don't go out that far" by companies that say they cover our county (Louth) or like I said just messed around with promised call backs or missed appointments.

At this stage we just want the work done so we can get on with decorating our house. This is the last "major" work we need to do and it's delaying everything else. We can't exactly have the rooms re plastered ready to paint when we know they will have to be taken apart again.

In fairness I did get a good feeling from the engineer. He didn't play up the issues to make it sound worse than it is or anything. He just seemed genuine and didn't want to commit to any one scenario until they get a better look. The quote he's doing will have a best case scenario price and a worst case scenario obviously depending on what they find. He also said once they open the floors they won't do anything until we've been shown exactly what's under there and gone through the options again.

It was only the suggestion that it would be better for us to move out that I was concerned with. It just seemed a bit much. Obviously if part of the process was going to be hazardous to health, we could probably clear out for 2 nights max.

It would be a good idea to have costs from them on the options before they open anything up...as they have good leverage then...

loveisdivine

Dardania wrote: »

It would be a good idea to have costs from them on the options before they open anything up...as they have good leverage then...

I believe that's what he's putting together now. He said whatever happens there wouldn't be a significant increase in price, like they open it up and suddenly it's another 2k!

He said we should have the more detailed quote by Monday so I guess we will see what that says.

tabby aspreme

You say the floorboards in the bedroom are spongy , could you pull up a few of them as they will have to be replaced anyhow and the same in the hallway, if it also has a wooden floor, it may then become very obvious where the damp is coming from if there is a leaking pipe. If you have a cement floor you could get a plumber to do a pressure test on the system to see if it's leaking water. This may be a job for a carpenter and a plumber not a company specializing in damp control.

Dardania

This chap had a similar problem, and attacked it himself:
https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057446634
great pics, and lovely writing style (although terrible shame about how things turned out)

I can't recall exactly, but I suspect there was a dicky pipe at one point from a rad (although could have been later int he works...)

loveisdivine

tabby aspreme wrote: »

You say the floorboards in the bedroom are spongy , could you pull up a few of them as they will have to be replaced anyhow and the same in the hallway, if it also has a wooden floor, it may then become very obvious where the damp is coming from if there is a leaking pipe. If you have a cement floor you could get a plumber to do a pressure test on the system to see if it's leaking water. This may be a job for a carpenter and a plumber not a company specializing in damp control.

That's a great idea! The room isn't used for anything at the moment so we could easily pull a bit up and have a look ourselves. It's at it's worst around the window so maybe it has something to do with that, maybe water is getting in there somehow.

The floor gets a lot firmer as you get closer to the wall where the mould/damp is though, which is odd, but it could just be the way the water is pooling I suppose.

Some rooms are concrete floors and some are suspended timber.

They said their job would include bringing a plumber on site if needs be.

Paul Kiernan

There is a school of thought that there is no such thing as "rising damp". In Holland they have traditionally built brick below the water level and the water capillaries up through the brick and evaporates harmlessly away.

Why not get an independent architect or arch. technician to check it out?

loveisdivine

I know this is a "how long is a piece of string" question, but anyone rough idea how much it would cost to get an architect to take a look? We don't want to be wasting money either way as we have a limited budget.

I think the best thing for us to do is open up the floor under the window and see if there's anything obvious first.

Edit - Also, what would an architect be able to do? Would he not also need to see under the floors/walls to know what's actually going on?

Paul Kiernan

I've no idea what'd it cost but I presume a technician would be cheaper.

There are so many things it could be other than rising damp. I recently heard of two separate cases where a drain was damaged and emptying into the subfloor. In one case it was from a sink and the guy was running a dehumidifier 24/7 until it was full of water .... and then emptying it down the same sink!

Paul Kiernan

Here's "rising damp" which is actually condensation -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2xwQWmzBSQ

and here's "rising damp" which is a leaking external drain -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XORucdJ5zQw

Calahonda52

Good advice so far here: I don't like the sound of these sales approach.

Side of hill means that there is a possibility that the water table is passing close to the bottom of the house walls and if so, all there resin in the world wont solve this.

Can u post a few pictures please?
The other point is that maybe a good french drain on the upper side of the house and then around both sides might be the first thing to consider.

My advice is hold off on the preferred solution for now until you get more comfortable with whats at stake here. PM me if you like with your approx location, am on the road a lot so maybe I could have a look see, it would be FOC except a few schillings to buy oats for the horse!

loveisdivine

Here's some pics of the main area of damp.
I'll take some of under the floor when we take it up probably on Sunday as we have guests tomorrow.

http://imgur.com/a/DmsUa

antiskeptic

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

There is a school of thought that there is no such thing as "rising damp". In Holland they have traditionally built brick below the water level and the water capillaries up through the brick and evaporates harmlessly away.

I recall seeing a Google-sourced global heatmap for the search term "rising damp". It was hot in Ireland and England, tepid in Australia and stone cold for the rest of the planet. It is indeed questionable whether there is such a thing as rising damp.

Paul Kiernan

loveisdivine wrote: »

Here's some pics of the main area of damp.
I'll take some of under the floor when we take it up probably on Sunday as we have guests tomorrow.

http://imgur.com/a/DmsUa

That is shocking! I'd check everything I could myself. Run sinks and flush toilets and listen at drains outside for flow of water. Check ground levels outside are all lower than inside. Dig hole in garden and see if water gathers in it. Try and work is there any pipework near the trouble spots which could be leaking. Why are some floors solid and some suspended? Is it possible the air vents under the suspended floor are blocked (or missing, or removed to build an extension). Is the interior of the house well ventilated? Are the trouble spots all on outer walls? Are they all in areas with solid floor or suspended?

loveisdivine

Right, we took up some of the laminate boards and underneath was more wooden boarding. There were no joins that we could see so we couldn't take he wooden board up to see what's under that. All we could see was some powdery white mould.

Here's some pictures of the floor and a floor plan I shoddily drew!

To be honest neither of us are that good at diy and such so we feel a little out of our depth.

The worst part of the damp and the spongey floor aren't reply located near any of the water sources likes taps or the toilet.

The wooden board that was under the laminate felt a tiny, tiny bit damp but didn't feel wet.

http://imgur.com/a/gJq71

Metric Tensor

Just to note that central heating pipes are also a potential source of water!

A good first step for leak detection is to switch off all your taps and water supplies and then strap the ballcock up in your attic tank. Wait and see does the water level drop.

Then assuming your central heating system is an open one you can do the same thing with the header tank for that.

loveisdivine

Does the fact we have a water well make any difference? I'll try what you suggested when I get home tonight.

2 weeks after moving in I did notice that the drain under the kitchen window was overflowing. There was some stones and a load of chicken wire type stuff in it. Once I pulled it all out the water flowed away freely. I'm wondering if perhaps that's been either blocked or partially blocked for a while could that be causing problems? Or would I expect to see damp nearer the kitchen and not over in one of the bedrooms?

To be honest I feel a bit lost with it all. Neither my husband or I have any experience with this kind of stuff and we feel a bit at the mercy of these companies to tell us what's wrong.

I think I'll give a local architect a call and explain the situation to them, see if they can help.

Paul Kiernan

loveisdivine wrote: »

http://imgur.com/a/gJq71

Are you sure you're not looking at the problem right there? Radiator valves are notorious leakers! All that expansion and compression as they heat up and cool down stresses the joints. Is there another radiator near the other leak?

They usually won't leak while the heating is on as the leaking water evaporates. You need to check it after the heat has been off for a while. Try wrapping some bits of toilet paper round the pipes below the valves and see if it gets damp.

Metric Tensor

It can be stressful but you get into the swing of the home "DIY" fast enough - before you know it you'll be down in the local builder's providers with a pencil tucked behind your ear buying a new battery for your DeWalt!

The key is to get good advice and although many contractors are very trustworthy and will advise you well it helps to have a professional on board who will not be directly profiting from the endeavours. (Of course there are unscrupulous professionals too sadly.)

loveisdivine

There is a radiator in the hall but it's further down and on the other side.

I don't know why there's a mixture of different types of flooring. The bedroom with the spongey floors is obviously the suspended timber, we believe the hallway is concrete but would have to take it up to be sure. The wall with the bad damp patch is a solid concrete wall.

We were stripping more wallpaper yesterday and we notice that underneath the plasterboard is another layer of wallpaper! That can't be normal right? Why would you put plasterboard over wallpaper?

It's confusing that the floor in the bedroom seems to get firmer (suggesting less damp) the closer it gets to the wall with the bad damp patch. You'd think it would be damp all the way across, between the 2 areas of damp.

Paul Kiernan

loveisdivine wrote: »

There is a radiator in the hall but it's further down and on the other side.

I don't know why there's a mixture of different types of flooring. The bedroom with the spongey floors is obviously the suspended timber, we believe the hallway is concrete but would have to take it up to be sure. The wall with the bad damp patch is a solid concrete wall.

I don't know much about 1960's building habits but if anyone can answer the following:
1. Was DPC normally fitted?
2. Would different floor types be used?

Do you know what the wall construction is?

I think a possible reason for the concrete floor may be that the original floor was rotten and somebody decided to replace it with a new concrete floor. This could then cause moisture to migrate to the walls to escape from under the slab. Mind you, this is wild conjecture on my part!

loveisdivine wrote: »

We were stripping more wallpaper yesterday and we notice that underneath the plasterboard is another layer of wallpaper! That can't be normal right? Why would you put plasterboard over wallpaper?

Again, if the original wall was in poor condition it might have seemed like an easy solution to whack new plasterboard over it.

loveisdivine wrote: »

It's confusing that the floor in the bedroom seems to get firmer (suggesting less damp) the closer it gets to the wall with the bad damp patch. You'd think it would be damp all the way across, between the 2 areas of damp.

Not so, if the floor is "spongy" it'll move less the closer you are to the wall and more in the middle as the joists are supported at each end.

I think you need to check that there is ventilation under the floor and that it isn't blocked. Look for air blocks low down on the outside wall. Even shine a torch in and see if you can see anything.

If you can't get to the bottom of this problem yourself you'll need to get a professional!

loveisdivine

The damp guy checked for ventilation blocks outside and he said they are there, now I don't know if he checked whether they were blocked. I'll do that tonight too.

I'm gonna pop out at lunch and get a jigsaw so we can get a proper look under the floor.

It's not the middle that's spongey. It's spongey near the exterior wall under the window, where you would expect the support to be. Then as you move across the room, closer to the wall that it shares with the hallway, the floor gets firmer, then you hit the damp wall.

When you say a professional, would that not be the damp specialist we already had out, or do you mean an impartial professional like an architect?

Paul Kiernan

The "engineer" from the damp company may well have diagnosed it correctly but it's such a serious issue and has such implications that you need to have a second impartial opinion. If it's the same you'll have the peace of mind that you're doing the right thing and if it's different you'll have saved yourself a lot of money and a lot of heartache down the road.

If I was in your shoes I'd be inclined to try and diagnose it myself though so go ahead and rip up those boards. You can always call in the experts later. It'll be easier for them to diagnose if you've already opened up the structure.

loveisdivine

I was just thinking, we have an outside tap that leaks a good bit. Will that affect testing the water tank?

Metric Tensor

If you are on a well it is likely that the outside tap is fed directly off the rising main from your pump - if this is the case it will not affect the test from the tank. If it is fed from the tank it will definitely skew your test results.

I know it's an obvious question but is this leaky tap anywhere near your damp wall?

loveisdivine

No unfortunately the leaky tap is at the other end of the house, that would be an easy fix!

So we took some of the floor up last night. Not much to report, there was certainly no pool of water. There were some patches of dirt that looked maybe a little damp, but no actual water. The joist nearest the external wall felt a little damp, but not wet and certainly not rotten. The next one along didn't feel damp at all. So nothing obvious there. To be honest it felt more like the bouncy floor was because of the wooden underlay not being particularly supportive. I checked around the bottom of the walls near the bouncy floor too and they weren't at all damp. Dry to the touch and no damp marks like in the hall.

So now we're going to focus our efforts on the hallway. We're going too take some of it up at the weekend and hopefully we might get an answer. There has to be water of some kind there because it's definitely wet. I'm really hoping it was the overflowing drain in front of the kitchen that's somehow caused water to travel down under the hall.

We will see!

As a side note it's very frustrating that the damp company said last Thursday " I'll have the full quote over to you either tomorrow or Monday at the latest" and it's now Wednesday and I've received nothing!

Paul Kiernan

That all sounds quite promising. The problems in the bedroom might be just due to it not being used and not having heat on. Is it on the north side of the house, by any chance?

It might be worth your while investing in something like this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brennenstuhl-1298680-Moisture-Detector-MD/dp/B003CSNV2Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1475056930&sr=8-1&keywords=brennenstuhl+moisture+detector+md

loveisdivine

I've just ordered one of those with priority shipping so will have it for the weekend's investigating!

Nah it's an east facing wall, but there's a fairly large tree that cast's a shadow over that bit of the house.

Forgot to say, had a look at the vents outside that go into the sub floor. Need to check they're not blocked properly though as the one for the room in question had been painted over and whilst I could still see the holes, I'm not convinced they're not blocked a bit.

loveisdivine

I've spoken to a guy from a property preservation company. They will do a survey of the house, specifically relating to damp/moisture problems and timber decay etc. He said they will find out what's causing the problems, put it all together in a report and then make a recommendation for remedial works if any are needed. He reckons it's impartial because you pay for the survey and although they do offer some remedial work services, it's not the main part of their business. Apparently they will report exactly what they find, whether it's a genuine damp problem or a leak somewhere that's causing the damp.

I think I'm gonna go for it. They will use cameras and stuff to look at whats going on under the floor without having to take it all up. He also sounded more sensible on the phone, he said that at the minute solutions to the problem are irrelevant because we don't actually know what the problem is!

Paul Kiernan

Probably no harm in doing that, you have a problem and need to make sure it's resolved properly.

The pictures you showed in post 18 - were they of the hall or the bedroom?

loveisdivine

Right we had the surveyor round today. He is going to send on the full report but basically this is what he found.

The spongey floors in the bedroom are because there is no ventilation and the joists are riddled with woodworm. He says all the joists need to come up and either be replaced with new ones and increase the ventilation, or lay a concrete floor instead.

He believes the damp on the hallway wall outside this bedroom is because of the lack of ventilation in the room. He said the damp is only on that bedroom wall and nowhere else. He thinks if we correct the floor/ventilation in the bedroom, the wall will dry out and can have new plasterboard put on it.

The attic has woodworm, which we knew and he said when taking out the insulation to treat the woodworm it would need to be replaced with a much better one as the current insulation is poor.

He said the master bedroom with timber floor is mildly affected but not seriously. If we were going to concrete the other bedroom he said it might be worth doing the main one at the same time.

That's pretty much it. He said the other guy made it out to be much worse than it is. There's no huge damp issue and we don't need to take up all the floors and half the walls.

Basically it's repair the floor in one room and treat a few areas for woodworm.

Once he send's the full report I'll ask if he can quote for the work. I kinda don't want to go to yet another company to get the work done as I feel if I involve another one, they may come in and try and add other problems to it like the damp guy did.

loveisdivine

Forgot to add, he said the reason the ventilation is so poor is because there is only 1 vent (which isn't very good) so there's no flow/movement of the air created.

What's peoples thoughts on replacing the floor with new timber and improving ventilation over laying a concrete floor?

Metric Tensor

It's horses for courses:

1. In a new build concrete floors are the way to go - they are more robust and for the most part if they get wet you just dry them out. No long term damage done.

2. However, in a house of a certain age the entire building envelope is more "breathable" than in new builds - depending on how the house is built if you whack a great big lump of impermeable concrete into it you could push/retain moisture in areas where it should not be. In this case timber floors would make more sense because it preserves the construction techniques and "moisture balance/breathability" of the house.

Your house is a 1960s build so it could go either way!!! Without knowing the full construction story of the house no-one here can tell you which is best but if you ask your surveyor for advice he might help - provided he is not trying to sell a specific product of course!!

Paul Kiernan

I'd agree with Metric Tensor.

I'd be wary of concrete and would go for the timber floor, making sure it's well ventilated and well insulated with breathable insulation. Also make sure there's no draughts from the cold ventilated underfloor space into the living space.

loveisdivine

Well the rooms on either side of this room and the hallway outside of it are all concrete. In fact the only rooms that still have timber floors are this one and the main bedroom. Maybe it would be better to have them all the same?

I like the idea of a timber floor more, but the surveyor said he would recommend the concrete floor because of the ventilation issues. He isn't selling any particular product so I don't think he has an angle.

Will wait for the full written report then make a decision.

As an aside, which is likely to cost more?

Dardania

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

I'd agree with Metric Tensor.

I'd be wary of concrete and would go for the timber floor, making sure it's well ventilated and well insulated with breathable insulation. Also make sure there's no draughts from the cold ventilated underfloor space into the living space.

As Paul notes, in choosing between concrete and timber, you have an opportunity to chose the insulation standard. It's a great opportunity to do floor insulation to current building regs (which would probably be easiest with concrete option?)

Paul Kiernan

loveisdivine wrote: »

..... but the surveyor said he would recommend the concrete floor because of the ventilation issues. He isn't selling any particular product so I don't think he has an angle.

The surveyor has seen it and is in the best position to make the call. I have no idea which would cost more. Either way make sure you insulate as much as you reasonably can.

My worry with concrete is that if there is water under it which can't escape it may migrate to the walls and rise up them. As long as you ventilate properly this won't present a problem but you must ventilate and in the depths of winter that is not easy to do! The only way to ventilate your heated space is (1) to let cold air in and hot air out and take the hit of the heat loss or (2) pay a quite significant upfront cost of installing heat recovery ventilation. The choice is yours. Just don't take the option of doing neither unless you like mushrooms growing in your bathroom!