More puppy questions : the teenage years...

volchitsa

So our gorgeous Lola is 9 months old today, happy, enthusiastic about everything and most of all energetic!!

I have a few questions in case we're making any major mistakes in behaviour/training, as she's our first ever dog.

When we take her out for walks (without getting in the car I mean), there are only basically a couple of possible routes where we can take her off the leash, mostly we go about 500m or a bit more to a dirt track where we take off the leash, and then she can generally stay off the leash for most of the walk (I put it on to pass a couple of fields that have livestock which she's very reactive towards, but then she is a sheepdog after all!) until we get back to the road on our way home again.

I'm wondering if a regular walk along much the same path is actually good or bad? Does it mean she's exploring her surroundings and that she enjoys reinvestigating the same bushes, see how they've changed since yesterday, or is it likely to become much like staying in a very big garden for her?

The other thing is, up to now she's mostly been great at never going far out of our sight, she'd normally come racing back every few minutes, and stop at crossroads to wait for us. I'm hoping it's because she's a sheepdog, and wants to stay near us, but I'm wondering if as she gets older she is likely to get more confident without us?

A couple of times now she's seen other dogs before we did and has gone over to play with them, and it's quite hard to get proper recall in those cases - she's grand as long as the alternative isn't too exciting, but another dog who wants to play is just too much to resist! Is this likely to become more of a problem or is it just that her recall isn't 100% yet?

Thanks for any and all opinions.

tk123

My dogs are 3 and 7 and I still practice recall with them every day and reward them when they come back to enforce it for times when I won't have treats or they're extra distracted/I want them back asap. Somebody was only commenting last week 'the dogs will expect a treat every time they come to you'....like it was a bad thing - but that's the whole idea lol!

She's getting a little older now and as you can see has her own ideas about what she wants to do so I'd suggest using a higher value reward when you're out and call her back more often so she's used to checking in with you. The do go through phases of not wanting to come back - you need to remind them it's worth their while!

volchitsa

Yeah, I can see that we need to keep practicing stuff (she's just learned to bark on command, it's hilarious. Now we just need to teach her to stop!).

Actually I've also realized we've sort of created a "problem" for ourselves because on our walk, we often cut through a disused apple orchard, with hundreds of apples on the ground, and now she no longer brings the "ball" back, she runs after it, picks it up and then waits for us to throw a new one. She obviously thinks we all have a never ending supply of "balls". Is it too late to teach her to properly fetch now? She used to before, though she was only middling good at actually dropping. She drops and then grabs the toy again, or else runs away with it. But now she doesn't even bring it back either.

VonVix

I'll address the two parts that stand out to me most...

volchitsa wrote: »

When we take her out for walks (without getting in the car I mean), there are only basically a couple of possible routes where we can take her off the leash, mostly we go about 500m or a bit more to a dirt track where we take off the leash, and then she can generally stay off the leash for most of the walk (I put it on to pass a couple of fields that have livestock which she's very reactive towards, but then she is a sheepdog after all!) until we get back to the road on our way home again.

I'm wondering if a regular walk along much the same path is actually good or bad? Does it mean she's exploring her surroundings and that she enjoys reinvestigating the same bushes, see how they've changed since yesterday, or is it likely to become much like staying in a very big garden for her?

Are you bringing her around livestock on your regular walks? When you say "reactive" when she sees them, how is she reactive? Barking, spinning, etc? Or going into sheepdog mode/stalking?

Have you attempted any kind of training to ease the reactivity around livestock? Or to at least make the situation more manageable for both of you aside from leashing her?

The other thing is, up to now she's mostly been great at never going far out of our sight, she'd normally come racing back every few minutes, and stop at crossroads to wait for us. I'm hoping it's because she's a sheepdog, and wants to stay near us, but I'm wondering if as she gets older she is likely to get more confident without us?

A couple of times now she's seen other dogs before we did and has gone over to play with them, and it's quite hard to get proper recall in those cases - she's grand as long as the alternative isn't too exciting, but another dog who wants to play is just too much to resist! Is this likely to become more of a problem or is it just that her recall isn't 100% yet?

Thanks for any and all opinions.

I personally have an issue with this part for a number of reasons, one of which is coming from the angle as a person owning a fearful medium sized dog. I find it highly inappropriate for a dog to run up to another dog, while off leash, without permission or without the owner able to recall their dog.

I'm not sure of the kind of area you're letting your dog off leash, but I'm going to be speaking as if it's a regular enough park in an area where coming across other people with dogs both on and off leash isn't uncommon.
The problems I have in my mind are what if your dog runs up to the "wrong dog"? A dog who is reactive? How does your dog handle another dog telling her to leave them alone? Is she persistent in wanting interaction until she gets distracted by something else?
What about if she approaches a fearful dog? While it may have no affect on Lola, such scenarios can set back a dog who may be progressing in confidence as well as increase stress levels in a dog owner! If a dog charges them in a boisterous/playful manner it can be quite a terrifying experience for certain dogs.

I can see problems arising if you don't continue to reinforce her recall with something more than praise like a lot of people traditionally do. Putting emphasis on touching Lola's harness/collar when she comes back to you and then release her again), having various rewards on you such as a tug toy and/or some cheese/ham/chicken handy can help reinforce that coming back to you is really rewarding. Perhaps for a dog like her playing with a toy with you might be nearly as rewarding as playing with another dog. It might be also worth investing in a recall line to help set up Lola for success.

volchitsa

VonVix wrote: »

I'll address the two parts that stand out to me most...

Are you bringing her around livestock on your regular walks? When you say "reactive" when she sees them, how is she reactive? Barking, spinning, etc? Or going into sheepdog mode/stalking?

She doesn't stalk them, she's fascinated, and if they look at her she does a sort of sideways jumping which may be what you call spinning. Barking after a while if the situation is allowed to continue - I usually just walk her on past, she might bark once. Not a barking frenzy or anything. But very reactive in that they clearly have a huge effect on her, more than anything that's not alive. She's like that about motorbikes too, totally different to cars for her (she's always on leash then though) For now she's more afraid of cows or horses than they are of her, but obviously I don't want her going into a field with them in case she spooks them.

Have you attempted any kind of training to ease the reactivity around livestock? Or to at least make the situation more manageable for both of you aside from leashing her?

I'm not too sure how to, I had hoped that by walking past them and treating her when she's calmer (on the way back she's calmer for instance) that she'd just get used to them.

I personally have an issue with this part for a number of reasons, one of which is coming from the angle as a person owning a fearful medium sized dog. I find it highly inappropriate for a dog to run up to another dog, while off leash, without permission or without the owner able to recall their dog.

We're not in town, it's rare to meet more than a couple of dogs, and we do normally put her on the leash when we see a dog coming - it's a dirt track, not a field where you can see for a long distance. Also this is a recent thing and is partly why I posted this, because I don't want it to become a problem.

I'm not sure of the kind of area you're letting your dog off leash, but I'm going to be speaking as if it's a regular enough park in an area where coming across other people with dogs both on and off leash isn't uncommon.
The problems I have in my mind are what if your dog runs up to the "wrong dog"? A dog who is reactive? How does your dog handle another dog telling her to leave them alone? Is she persistent in wanting interaction until she gets distracted by something else?

Well this is the thing, she's very submissive when the other dog isn't friendly, and I've found it easier to handle when she was off the leash than on it, because on the rare occasions when a dog has been reacting aggressively to her she ran away.

So the one time she (sort of) got attacked, she was on the leash, at a campsite, and another dog escaped its owner and ran over to us and attacked her, basically. Staffordshire terrier-type dog. For no reason. But because I didn't want to let her go as dogs are allowed only onleash there, she couldn't get away!
(Luckily she's a lot bigger and wasn't hurt before the owner grabbed him, it was only maybe 30 seconds, but it's why I sort of prefer for her to be off leash if possible. I feel like she's safer in that case.)

What about if she approaches a fearful dog? While it may have no affect on Lola, such scenarios can set back a dog who may be progressing in confidence as well as increase stress levels in a dog owner! If a dog charges them in a boisterous/playful manner it can be quite a terrifying experience for certain dogs.

Yes I see what you mean, I'll keep an eye on that.
My impression is that she's quite good at sensing other dogs' attitudes,(she goes to puppy class with my son, and I see them at the start and the end of class) but I'll try to be more aware of that possibility. I've seen older dogs not happy to see her, not afraid but just not wanting to be bothered by her, she hangs back a bit and then I catch up and put on the leash.

TBH I haven't really tried to teach her not to go up to other dogs, I didn't really know you could, she just pulls like crazy when she's on the leash and sees another dog coming. How do I stop her "wanting" to go over in the first place? It's very noticeable that people (don't know about their dogs) react better to her when she comes up to their dog off leash than when they see this big black dog pulling like crazy on its leash to "get" their darling Fido! Off leash, you can see she's friendly, onleash she seems madder I guess. Even though she's happy enough onleash, it's just when she sees something she wants.

I can see problems arising if you don't continue to reinforce her recall with something more than praise like a lot of people traditionally do. Putting emphasis on touching Lola's harness/collar when she comes back to you and then release her again), having various rewards on you such as a tug toy and/or some cheese/ham/chicken handy can help reinforce that coming back to you is really rewarding. Perhaps for a dog like her playing with a toy with you might be nearly as rewarding as playing with another dog. It might be also worth investing in a recall line to help set up Lola for success.

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Thanks. I'll definitely try that.
Is it just touching her physically that matters, or does the collar/harness have a particular importance? (Sorry for all the questions!)
I do (we do) sometimes still give treats for coming back, and normally when I say NO to her when she wants to say go into a field (no livestock obviously) or a gateway, that's usually enough, she just stops, and on the rare occasions when she doesn't, because she's seen something so great (a plate of cat food one time for example!) I went and got her, said BOLD and put her leash on straightaway so I hope she knew she was being punished. I wasn't sure if it was necessary to still be cross after that or if the whole thing is over in a few seconds in her brain.

I think you're right about the toys, BTW, she likes them at least as much as food.

Last thing : what's a recall line?
edit: ok I've looked it up, a really long leash, right? I've bookmarked a page (Dogstardaily iirc) and I'll read it tomorrow. Thanks again for all that.

VonVix

volchitsa wrote: »

She doesn't stalk them, she's fascinated, and if they look at her she does a sort of sideways jumping which may be what you call spinning. Barking after a while if the situation is allowed to continue - I usually just walk her on past, she might bark once. Not a barking frenzy or anything. But very reactive in that they clearly have a huge effect on her, more than anything that's not alive. She's like that about motorbikes too, totally different to cars for her (she's always on leash then though) For now she's more afraid of cows or horses than they are of her, but obviously I don't want her going into a field with them in case she spooks them.

I'm not too sure how to, I had hoped that by walking past them and treating her when she's calmer (on the way back she's calmer for instance) that she'd just get used to them.

Have you taught her "watch me"? I find it quite a simple thing to train, but so, so useful! Of course, you would have to start somewhere that is very low in distraction, such as your home and then build up to public places with more and more distractions. Be mindful of when you reward your dog, I personally like to reward them when they do something different (responding to a sit or down for example)/can concentrate on me rather than the exciting thing, instead of rewarding when the distraction has gone by.

We're not in town, it's rare to meet more than a couple of dogs, and we do normally put her on the leash when we see a dog coming - it's a dirt track, not a field where you can see for a long distance. Also this is a recent thing and is partly why I posted this, because I don't want it to become a problem.

It's really good you're thinking of this now, all too often dog owners try to fix a problem when it becomes a problem, rather than preventing it, like you seem to be doing.

Well this is the thing, she's very submissive when the other dog isn't friendly, and I've found it easier to handle when she was off the leash than on it, because on the rare occasions when a dog has been reacting aggressively to her she ran away.

So the one time she (sort of) got attacked, she was on the leash, at a campsite, and another dog escaped its owner and ran over to us and attacked her, basically. Staffordshire terrier-type dog. For no reason. But because I didn't want to let her go as dogs are allowed only onleash there, she couldn't get away!
(Luckily she's a lot bigger and wasn't hurt before the owner grabbed him, it was only maybe 30 seconds, but it's why I sort of prefer for her to be off leash if possible. I feel like she's safer in that case.)

I can understand where you are coming from, trying to improve her recall sounds ideal long term, it would help you avoid situations where your dog has to be the one to suss other dogs out, rather than herself.

TBH I haven't really tried to teach her not to go up to other dogs, I didn't really know you could, she just pulls like crazy when she's on the leash and sees another dog coming. How do I stop her "wanting" to go over in the first place? It's very noticeable that people (don't know about their dogs) react better to her when she comes up to their dog off leash than when they see this big black dog pulling like crazy on its leash to "get" their darling Fido! Off leash, you can see she's friendly, onleash she seems madder I guess. Even though she's happy enough onleash, it's just when she sees something she wants.

The trick is... you have to be more fun and rewarding than what she is trying to get at. :P Think about it from her perspective, she has the opportunity to play with another dog! Play! What if she knew she could play with you on walks as well? Of course don't expect her to figure out the first go, it takes time to build the history with the dog, but a lot of people quit (or are totally inconsistent) before they start to make any progress.

I would treat her behaviour on leash as if she was a reactive dog (well, in a sense, she is) leash frustration can be eased with consistent training, it can be difficult if you have never done it before (sometimes you don't know if you're doing the right thing at the right time) or do not have someone to guide you to tweak your technique.

Are you building an association that if she goes "mad" on leash, she gets to go off leash to greet the other dog? I would probably work on the leash behaviour first, I think having her walk calmly on leash when passing another dog would be a step in the right direction when it comes to her recall in the presence of other dogs. I really like this video, it strips it down to the bare basics, it should give you an idea how to progress with her walking behaviour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWU7wl_wp2A

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Thanks. I'll definitely try that.
Is it just touching her physically that matters, or does the collar/harness have a particular importance? (Sorry for all the questions!)
I do (we do) sometimes still give treats for coming back, and normally when I say NO to her when she wants to say go into a field (no livestock obviously) or a gateway, that's usually enough, she just stops, and on the rare occasions when she doesn't, because she's seen something so great (a plate of cat food one time for example!) I went and got her, said BOLD and put her leash on straightaway so I hope she knew she was being punished. I wasn't sure if it was necessary to still be cross after that or if the whole thing is over in a few seconds in her brain.

I think you're right about the toys, BTW, she likes them at least as much as food.

Last thing : what's a recall line?
edit: ok I've looked it up, a really long leash, right? I've bookmarked a page (Dogstardaily iirc) and I'll read it tomorrow. Thanks again for all that.

Questions are good! Keep asking them, that's how we learn new things!

The reason for touching her collar/harness is that some dogs will assume that when you call them, they automatically get grabbed and go back on leash, by releasing them after you touch their collar, you are lessening the chance of that association being built and therefore avoiding damaging their recall.

Never use being put on leash as punishment. If you make a habit out of that, why would she want to come back to you? It's not her fault for finding something rewarding. A dog lives its life through what's rewarding, they do things because a good thing happens.

If being recalled = being punished + put back on leash = end of fun... Dog learns not to come back when called.
If catfood is found near a gate = good things happen at gate... So whenever dog sees gate, dog rushes over to gate. Even if there is no catfood, because an association was built.

Also to add a PSA about recall lines, do not attach them to a dog's collar, but a harness. You can severely damage a dog's neck if you attach it to their collar.

volchitsa

Thanks for all that, Vonvix I'll read it properly and think about it, I can't actually reply to some of it without having a think about what I'm actually doing with her
(Eg I think I'm not reinforcing the behaviour, but maybe I need to analyze it more carefully all the same.)

Like I said, she goes to puppy class, and when she was in the baby class I used to stay too - now she's moved up a group and is doing actual "work" a second person doesn't seem welcome, or maybe it's just different educators taking different approaches, the guy who did the "baby" class was really great, just so patient with the pups - and their owners!

Anyway he told us that, about calling your dog over and not putting on her leash, so we still do that. Also the couple of times she didn't come back, when I did put her leash on as a sanction it was when I had to go and get her, so she hadn't come. So I thought that could be a lesson that when she doesn't come she gets scolded. OTOH long term it might not work, because her solution might be to run away further (she doesn't, yet, except when she's trying to make it a game)

God, it's all so complicated compared to having a cat!!

volchitsa

So I also think I need to be more careful to avoid making her sit to put her leash on, do it more "sneakily", and then the touching the collar when recalled might be a useful addition. Got that.

(I don't know why I sometimes do that, BTW, but I think I do. It's a sort of reflection of when I take it off, so she doesn't run off madly I make her sit, and wait till she's freed before she goes. That works ok.)

She doesn't sit for long though, as a general rule. How long is it reasonable to expect her to sit before she's freed - I don't want to make it unachievable for her?

By "I can't reply" above, I mean give an answer to myself here, I know you're not expecting me to justify everything!

muddypaws

volchitsa wrote: »

So I also think I need to be more careful to avoid making her sit to put her leash on, do it more "sneakily", and then the touching the collar when recalled might be a useful addition. Got that.

(I don't know why I sometimes do that, BTW, but I think I do. It's a sort of reflection of when I take it off, so she doesn't run off madly I make her sit, and wait till she's freed before she goes. That works ok.)

She doesn't sit for long though, as a general rule. How long is it reasonable to expect her to sit before she's freed - I don't want to make it unachievable for her?

By "I can't reply" above, I mean give an answer to myself here, I know you're not expecting me to justify everything!

Theres nothing wrong with asking her to sit to put her leash on. But if you recall her, touch her collar, or even put her leash on, then take it off and let her go back off again to play, she won't come to associate coming back to you always being the end of fun time. Thats where a problem can occur, the only time a dog gets called back and asked to sit is when they are going home. If they don't want to go home, they just stop coming back If they come back, leash on, treat, leash off, back to play, they will be more likely to keep coming back.

Choc Chip

Hopefully on-topic, is there anyone that you guys would recommend for really good recall training? Or maybe a private lesson? I can check out the apdt if there is no one in particular that ye'd recommend.

I'd consider mine to have decent recall but a couple of deer/squirrel incidents this week have made me reconsider that and I could do with some pointers on how best to reproof them.