Dublin Bus AND Bus Eireann strike?

mrsmags16

Read in the news that Bus Eireann workers might join the strike if the Dublin Bus issue isn't sorted.
At the minute I work outside Dublin on a Dublin Bus route. On the strike days fortunately I've been able to use a Bus Eireann route that goes through the village I work in.
I was thinking about what I'd do if both services were on strike. A taxi would be 50 quid each way which I obviously couldn't afford. Would I be obliged to pay for one?
I don't drive and I'm not required to for my job. I work for the State. I wouldn't call in sick because, well, I wouldn't be sick. But I can't think of any way I'd be realistically able to get to work. The others I work with all live locally and drive in.
Feel really sorry for those who can only use DB to travel on the strike days!

Dravokivich

mrsmags16 wrote: »

Read in the news that Bus Eireann workers might join the strike if the Dublin Bus issue isn't sorted.

Bus Eireann have different issues which may lead to their own strikes. Nothing to do with Dublin Bus. It's around intending to spin off the "ExpressWay" service separate from Bus Eireann.

L1011

mrsmags16 wrote: »

A taxi would be 50 quid each way which I obviously couldn't afford. Would I be obliged to pay for one?

Your employer certainly isn't obliged to pay for it. If they make other arrangements that's their choice, not responsibility

RossieMan

It would be your own problem getting to work in my opinion. Not your employer's fault you dont drive. I don't drive myself so understand your position.

Perhaps try and get a lift with another member of staff? Obviously cover their expenses for the trip.

LXFlyer

OP where are based? There may be a private alternative.

n97 mini

mrsmags16 wrote: »

The others I work with all live locally and drive in.

Could someone detour and give you a lift?

hmmm

From the news reports today, it seems to me underlying all this the unions want to roll back the use of private operators on BE routes. This will allow fares to rise, drivers to be paid more, BE to return to profit etc. etc. Essentially, they want a monopoly again.

If so, this dispute will drag on. There is no way any government is going to row back on this, the traveling public will not put up with it. The unions are fighting a fight they will never win.

devnull

Basically it's the workers saying the industry should be run for the benefit of them, not for the public who use buses and coaches which is the key message here.

The privates get trade because they operate routes that BE were not interested in or did not want to operate or didn't have the innovative spirit to come up with themselves.

They are essentially arguing that us lot should have worse transport because it suits the workers and BE better if they have a total monopoly on public transport.

It's good to see the unions wanting to act in the commercial interest of the company that they represent though, having spent the last 40 years arguing that transport shouldn't be about commercial interests.

LXFlyer

To be fair to the unions in the case of BE they are representing their members' rights and trying to maintain their levels of pay and protect their jobs - I really wouldn't expect them to do otherwise, would you?

The NBRU representative stated that they wanted to prevent "a race to the bottom".

But I think frankly that with regard to the commercial Expeessway operations, the boat has to a degree sailed and unions (and BE) are playing catch up.

They're somewhat caught by not being able to raise finance as easily as private operators and thus not be in a position to respond to market demands as fast as they should.

At the same time however, if they are going to operate in the competitive market then they are going to have to be able to adapt - it may well be that salaries aren't competitive - I don't know. But I do suspect that we are going to see a big change in how Expressway operates into the future.

It may well end up either being sold off or closed down altogether.

Hence I have some sympathy for the drivers and staff, but unfortunately for them the market is changing into an open one and that (in some ways) may not be a good thing.

It could lead to more routes having to become PSO designated if neither Expressway nor private operators deem them viable which would mean more costs to the State.

On the other hand we may see BE withdrawing from routes and private operators taking them over.

Either way we are now at a massive crossroads in Irish public transport - whatever happens now will have huge implications for years to come.

devnull

I agree with you on most of the above, but on the financing aspect I have to disagree. The problem is not merely about raising of finance, it's about the use of the finance they have got.

They are spending huge sums every year on marketing and on renewal of the fleet when quite frankly they don't need to be spending that much. If they for example stopped purchasing new vehicles and reigned in marketing for one year there would be a hefty sum to spend on investing in their services.

If you look at Dublin Coach, Aircoach and other operators, they all have launched new services without brand new vehicles and when the service established itself they threw newer vehicles at it when the service justified them because they couldn't afford to both invest in vehicles and start up a new service.

The problem with BE for some time now is they appear to be more interested in trying to have a good image for their services than actually investing in the nuts and bolts of the service itself. It's style over substance and this is something that management have failed on.

ebbsy

lxflyer wrote: »

To be fair to the unions in the case of BE they are representing their members' rights and trying to maintain their levels of pay and protect their jobs - I really wouldn't expect them to do otherwise, would you?

The NBRU representative stated that they wanted to prevent "a race to the bottom".

But I think frankly that with regard to the commercial Expeessway operations, the boat has to a degree sailed and unions (and BE) are playing catch up.

They're somewhat caught by not being able to raise finance as easily as private operators and thus not be in a position to respond to market demands as fast as they should.

At the same time however, if they are going to operate in the competitive market then they are going to have to be able to adapt - it may well be that salaries aren't competitive - I don't know. But I do suspect that we are going to see a big change in how Expressway operates into the future.

It may well end up either being sold off or closed down altogether.

Hence I have some sympathy for the drivers and staff, but unfortunately for them the market is changing into an open one and that (in some ways) may not be a good thing.

It could lead to more routes having to become PSO designated if neither Expressway nor private operators deem them viable which would mean more costs to the State.

On the other hand we may see BE withdrawing from routes and private operators taking them over.

Either way we are now at a massive crossroads in Irish public transport - whatever happens now will have huge implications for years to come.

+1

Likes of low cost operators have come in and have buried Bus Eireann to a certain extent.

LuckyLloyd

With the respect to the OP's question, raise this point with your manager / supervisor and ask them if other employees have raised similar concerns and whether any provision is being considered for staff in your situation. Bottom line is that it is your personal responsibility to present yourself for work as required (within reason in terms of notice of where place of business is or offsites) and any help provided will be discretionary in nature.

hmmm

lxflyer wrote: »

To be fair to the unions in the case of BE they are representing their members' rights and trying to maintain their levels of pay and protect their jobs - I really wouldn't expect them to do otherwise, would you?

A union shouldn't create expectations that it cannot deliver on however - it is bad for the employees, and bad for those affected by strikes. BE is suffering because it is trying to compete with private operators - the answer is not, and never will be, to reintroduce the monopoly.

LXFlyer

hmmm wrote: »

A union shouldn't create expectations that it cannot deliver on however - it is bad for the employees, and bad for those affected by strikes. BE is suffering because it is trying to compete with private operators - the answer is not, and never will be, to reintroduce the monopoly.

They may not be realistic expectations but I wouldn't expect a union to not represent its employees on something like this - it's pretty fundamental.

I might not agree with the rate of the pay claims but I certainly would expect the union to do everything to protect their members pay, conditions and ultimately jobs.

How successful they'll be is another question.

oppenheimer1

lxflyer wrote: »

To be fair to the unions in the case of BE they are representing their members' rights and trying to maintain their levels of pay and protect their jobs - I really wouldn't expect them to do otherwise, would you?

The NBRU representative stated that they wanted to prevent "a race to the bottom".

But I think frankly that with regard to the commercial Expeessway operations, the boat has to a degree sailed and unions (and BE) are playing catch up.

They're somewhat caught by not being able to raise finance as easily as private operators and thus not be in a position to respond to market demands as fast as they should.

At the same time however, if they are going to operate in the competitive market then they are going to have to be able to adapt - it may well be that salaries aren't competitive - I don't know. But I do suspect that we are going to see a big change in how Expressway operates into the future.

It may well end up either being sold off or closed down altogether.

Hence I have some sympathy for the drivers and staff, but unfortunately for them the market is changing into an open one and that (in some ways) may not be a good thing.

It could lead to more routes having to become PSO designated if neither Expressway nor private operators deem them viable which would mean more costs to the State.

On the other hand we may see BE withdrawing from routes and private operators taking them over.

Either way we are now at a massive crossroads in Irish public transport - whatever happens now will have huge implications for years to come.

I don't agree that the unions are acting to protect jobs in BE, if they were they would be coming up with ways to make the company profitable, not seeking a pay rise to further sink the company.

BE need to look at their cost structures vs the cost structures of other coach companies and work out why others are making money and BE is not. It may well mean that services will have to be scaled back to get the loads they need, or services dropped altogether and some staff made redundant and wages reduced in order to get the company back on an even keel.

If they don't make these changes then the company will fold and they will all be out of a job then.

magicbastarder

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I don't agree that the unions are acting to protect jobs in BE, if they were they would be coming up with ways to make the company profitable

that's a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of unions. they are there to represent the workers. it's the job of the management of the company to make the company profitable.

LXFlyer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I don't agree that the unions are acting to protect jobs in BE, if they were they would be coming up with ways to make the company profitable, not seeking a pay rise to further sink the company.

BE need to look at their cost structures vs the cost structures of other coach companies and work out why others are making money and BE is not. It may well mean that services will have to be scaled back to get the loads they need, or services dropped altogether and some staff made redundant and wages reduced in order to get the company back on an even keel.

If they don't make these changes then the company will fold and they will all be out of a job then.

The unions are doing precisely what I would expect them to do - this is the opening round of talks - I wouldn't expect them to suddenly do anything less.

It is what happens next that will be significant.

However with regard to Expressway I think you're probably right - the boat has already sailed and I think it will end up either privatised or become a low cost operator.

I think ultimately there will be redundancies - not good news at all for the staff, and I think we do need to be conscious of that.

The NTA may also end up having to establish more PSO services to replace unviable routes.

hmmm

magicbastarder wrote: »

that's a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of unions. they are there to represent the workers. it's the job of the management of the company to make the company profitable.

It makes no difference to workers whether a company is profitable or not?

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

It makes no difference to workers whether a company is profitable or not?

i should think it does.

suicide_circus

magicbastarder wrote: »

that's a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of unions. they are there to represent the workers. it's the job of the management of the company to make the company profitable.

So they stick their heads in the sand and refuse to engage on productivity in any way? That's just short sighted.

oppenheimer1

suicide_circus wrote: »

So they stick their heads in the sand and refuse to engage on productivity in any way? That's just short sighted.

Short sightedness is a trait of unions. They don't care about the company or even the long term future of the union itself. They only care about getting the best deal for themselves, particularly the long serving members. Unions have a nice track record in this country at shafting their young members, look at the public sector unions for example.

Wait and see BE expressway dispute will be settled with massive redundancy based on time served. Terms for those that stay will be cut.

IE 222

I think it's time the government start giving much needed resources back to all PT. There seems to be more tranport agencies and rule makers than companies now. I know CIE are useless and have proved they cant be relied on to improve, invest or make decisions for the countries best interests, but a group that unites all state transport systems into one and can fund each other needs to be in place. Working as independent groups clearly doesn't work. A group that manages, funds and create all infrastructure and transport across all modes of sea, air, Rail and road rather than having 10 CEOs and a team of top brass for each company and agent. Is it not time to put them all as one. This bickering about and passing the book attitude is doing nothing for anyone.

Letting BE sink will only come back to bite us. Private operators need to be cut back and only used were needed and help fill the gaps rather than provide competition. There is room for them to operate but whats the point in paying for a service twice if not 3 times. It's baffling why people allow a company come in and run a profitable route and leave state funded body to run itself into the ground. Like all new businesses trying to get there foot in the door they are going to drop prices and run on very small margins. Once BE is scaled down or removed the private lads will just increase prices. New PSOs will need to be created resulting in more funds thrown away to line the pockets of foreign companies that don't reinvest in OUR networks. The NTA won't be able to do much as knowone else will be there to take over these services.

We will end up having a transport network like the current bin system we allowed to develop over the years. We might think it's a welcome change and get over the first increase soon but after a couple of years we will be told that prices need to double or we will pull out. This is exactly where all this is heading.

KingBrian2

mrsmags16 wrote: »

Read in the news that Bus Eireann workers might join the strike if the Dublin Bus issue isn't sorted.
At the minute I work outside Dublin on a Dublin Bus route. On the strike days fortunately I've been able to use a Bus Eireann route that goes through the village I work in.
I was thinking about what I'd do if both services were on strike. A taxi would be 50 quid each way which I obviously couldn't afford. Would I be obliged to pay for one?
I don't drive and I'm not required to for my job. I work for the State. I wouldn't call in sick because, well, I wouldn't be sick. But I can't think of any way I'd be realistically able to get to work. The others I work with all live locally and drive in.
Feel really sorry for those who can only use DB to travel on the strike days!

Get a bike or maybe carpool.

Bass Reeves

It is interesting to read some of the post here that seem to think taht over the last 20+ years union intransigence has again left a semi state company in this situation. what we are seeing here is again a Ryanair/Aer Lingus battle. The arrival of motorways has changed intercity travel. Trains were and still are way too expensive.

Nimble private operators saw an opportunity and came on the scene with a service that is 30-60% cheaper than BE. Also they provided seperate services to high traffic destinations. From Limerick and Cork you can get coaches from Limerick to Dublin City Center and to Dublin Airport. BE charged higher prices and tended to dump you where they saw fit . They frequency rate was poor until too late, TBF they seemed to have acted more now on routes from these cities to larger towns with a higher frequency to prevent the market being taken from them. However they still remain a little expensive in price.

I think it is a failed assumption that if BE fails on inter city routes that these coach operators will increase prices substancially. I imagine that all are profitable at present they are unlikly to leave themselves open to being undercut by another cheaper operator. If you look at Ryanair it is still the cheapest airline and uses this to grab market share and develop new routes. I can se these coach operators continuing with this. At present they operate intercity coaches with minimal stops. I can see them adding capacity to theses routes by adding stops off motorway junctions. They could operate a cheaper inter city rate on these but charge more for off motor way pick up's. It all about being nimble and thinking outside the box. Parking charges at Dublin Airport and the city leaves expansion on these routes open.

There employment model seems to target older workers who often only want 3-4 days employment a week and are willing to take an extended lunch break. The unions have failed to recruit members in these company's. The idea that unions can ignore company profitability when lookin for wages rises ignores the effect EU competition law has on sate intervention and subsidy

devnull

IE 222 wrote: »

Private operators need to be cut back and only used were needed and help fill the gaps rather than provide competition.

Why? So the workers can have a higher wage and dictate the terms and conditions the traveling public should lose out and have to put up with inferior, more expensive, less frequent slower services that do not operate on a regular basis for early flights and late arrivals at the airport among other things.

There is room for them to operate but whats the point in paying for a service twice if not 3 times. It's baffling why people allow a company come in and run a profitable route. and leave state funded body to run itself into the ground.

We are not paying for a service twice. Private operators pay fully themselves without any subsidy and are reliant on investment from external factors and their own incomes, they are not taking money from the public at all unless the public chooses to travel with them. Nobody is forced to travel with them.

Expressway is run exactly the same as the private companies and has the same rights and conditions of any of them. The reason that the privates are slaughtering BE on some routes is because they operate cheaper, more regular, frequent, early morning and late evening services that BE do not and have timetables that suit people better and/or better journey times.

Once BE is scaled down or removed the private lads will just increase prices. New PSOs will need to be created resulting in more funds thrown away to line the pockets of foreign companies that don't reinvest in OUR networks. The NTA won't be able to do much as knowone else will be there to take over these services.

Actually you will find that the other way around has happened in the past.

When Aircoach withdrew services on the Belfast route the prices were hiked up by Translink and Bus Eireann within a few weeks. The moment Aircoach started up again they cut the prices by 50%. The fact is that competition is good for prices and if you removed competition prices would go up. It doesn't matter if the operator is state owned or private owned, a monopoly of any kind is bad for consumers

We will end up having a transport network like the current bin system we allowed to develop over the years. We might think it's a welcome change and get over the first increase soon but after a couple of years we will be told that prices need to double or we will pull out. This is exactly where all this is heading.

That's great, but a lot of the private operators are not putting their fares up on a yearly basis like the state companies. Some of the operators have only had one increase in the last 5-6 years on some of the routes. Yet the state companies are putting them up every year for the last 10 years, so your analysis and point is rather flawed here.

By the way, there is only one route in Dublin Bus which has not had a fare increase in the last 6 years. The funniest thing? It's the only one with competition.

end of the road

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The arrival of motorways has changed intercity travel. Trains were and still are way too expensive.

i do agree that train fares could be lower but i also recognise why it won't happen. the belief is that lowering fares will require more government subsidy, and while that exists, and while management and the government are afraid to allow said idea to happen, we will remain as we are. buy more stock, lower the fares and lets see if numbers grow.

Jamie2k9

RTE Reporting Shane Ross has no objection to BE plans.....

p.b1

Many moons ago a young adult was caught by a bus driver using a child ticket to travel, the bus driver confiscated the ticket, but he let the 20 year old travel home on the bus, but told hime "make sure you have the correct ticket next time"
End of story you would think, lesson learned.
When this 20 year old got home he told papa what the nasty bus driver did.
Papa, no doubt incandescent with rage, phones the bus depot to demand the head of the bus driver for having the nerve to do his job, papa got no satisfaction and the phone call ended.
That could be the exact moment in time that papa developed a deep hatred for all things CIE, there are somethings we will never know and thats one of them.

IE 222

devnull wrote: »

Why? So the workers can have a higher wage and dictate the terms and conditions the traveling public should lose out and have to put up with inferior, more expensive, less frequent slower services that do not operate on a regular basis for early flights and late arrivals at the airport among other things.



We are not paying for a service twice. Private operators pay fully themselves without any subsidy and are reliant on investment from external factors and their own incomes, they are not taking money from the public at all unless the public chooses to travel with them. Nobody is forced to travel with them.

Expressway is run exactly the same as the private companies and has the same rights and conditions of any of them. The reason that the privates are slaughtering BE on some routes is because they operate cheaper, more regular, frequent, early morning and late evening services that BE do not and have timetables that suit people better and/or better journey times.



Actually you will find that the other way around has happened in the past.

When Aircoach withdrew services on the Belfast route the prices were hiked up by Translink and Bus Eireann within a few weeks. The moment Aircoach started up again they cut the prices by 50%. The fact is that competition is good for prices and if you removed competition prices would go up. It doesn't matter if the operator is state owned or private owned, a monopoly of any kind is bad for consumers



That's great, but a lot of the private operators are not putting their fares up on a yearly basis like the state companies. Some of the operators have only had one increase in the last 5-6 years on some of the routes. Yet the state companies are putting them up every year for the last 10 years, so your analysis and point is rather flawed here.

By the way, there is only one route in Dublin Bus which has not had a fare increase in the last 6 years. The funniest thing? It's the only one with competition.

I don't believe competition was added to control driver demands in the first place. These problems wouldn't be here if BE ran as a fully funded and released from forced cost cutting. Any company forced to cut costs are going to be running a shambles. It's hard to keep fares and increase services when you haven't any backing.

We are paying twice. If BE are running the same route as Aircoach and a person uses Aircoach the public is still left funding the empty BE service. The bigger issue will be if BE withdraw from routes PSOs will be required. We will still be funding a BE nationally, funding the PSO and probably have another operator that people will choose to use as they may offer a cheaper ticket.

The real reason why they can cut prices and add capacity is simple and a reason many refuse to acknowledge. Privates only operate on high demand and profitable routes. They offer later and 24hr services cause they are free from running loss making services. How many run school buses, rural services and town feeder services along with these high frequency services. If we told PO that they must run a schoolbus or rural service for every intercity service they run they wouldn't be long exiting.

As above regarding fare increases. If funding is going to be cut it has to come elsewhere. We cut funding to these companies but still expect the same service levels. We pay and fund BE regardless where and when they operate so why allow someone else to come in and take fares from BE. As I said let the PO run services that restrict BE from expanding current routes.

Anyway all this relates to poor government funding.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

I don't believe competition was added to control driver demands in the first place. These problems wouldn't be here if BE ran as a fully funded and released from forced cost cutting. Any company forced to cut costs are going to be running a shambles. It's hard to keep fares and increase services when you haven't any backing.

We are paying twice. If BE are running the same route as Aircoach and a person uses Aircoach the public is still left funding the empty BE service. The bigger issue will be if BE withdraw from routes PSOs will be required. We will still be funding a BE nationally, funding the PSO and probably have another operator that people will choose to use as they may offer a cheaper ticket.

The real reason why they can cut prices and add capacity is simple and a reason many refuse to acknowledge. Privates only operate on high demand and profitable routes. They offer later and 24hr services cause they are free from running loss making services. How many run school buses, rural services and town feeder services along with these high frequency services. If we told PO that they must run a schoolbus or rural service for every intercity service they run they wouldn't be long exiting.

As above regarding fare increases. If funding is going to be cut it has to come elsewhere. We cut funding to these companies but still expect the same service levels. We pay and fund BE regardless where and when they operate so why allow someone else to come in and take fares from BE. As I said let the PO run services that restrict BE from expanding current routes.

Anyway all this relates to poor government funding.

Goverment are not asking BE to run Expressway so Goverment Funding does not come into it. It's just like for example the Goverment is not asking DB to run the 747,757 service etc.

devnull

IE 222 wrote: »

We are paying twice. If BE are running the same route as Aircoach and a person uses Aircoach the public is still left funding the empty BE service.

You have no idea how Expressway Works. It's not entitled to use public money for any of it's routes and has to be entire self-funding. It does not operate any PSO routes, it operates strictly commercial routes the same as any private operator.

If you are suggesting that there is cross subsidization going on that would be illegal under EU State aid laws and the privates would have took BE to court now if that was going on obviously. This is the same reason why state funded vehicles cannot operate on Expressway routes.

The real reason why they can cut prices and add capacity is simple and a reason many refuse to acknowledge. Privates only operate on high demand and profitable routes.

Privates only operate on routes where they can make a profit because
1) They are not allowed to operate routes that compete directly with PSO routes
2) They are not permitted to tender for routes that receive government funding.

How many run school buses, rural services and town feeder services along with these high frequency services. If we told PO that they must run a schoolbus or rural service for every intercity service they run they wouldn't be long exiting.

Of course, Dublin Bus operate them out of the kindness of their hearts, it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact the state is paying them to operate these services of course, that is just a co-incidence.

The simple fact is Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann PSO operates routes that are not viable because they are paid to do so. Privates do not operate many of them because they are not paid to do so and in almost all cases would not be allowed to do so anyway.

I know that might not suit the picture you are trying to paint but it is the reality.

As above regarding fare increases. If funding is going to be cut it has to come elsewhere. We cut funding to these companies but still expect the same service levels. We pay and fund BE regardless where and when they operate so why allow someone else to come in and take fares from BE. As I said let the PO run services that restrict BE from expanding current routes. .

I notice that you are talking an awful lot about Bus Eireann and what is good for them and still are not talking about what is good for the passengers and providers a proper innovative round the clock bus service nationwide that takes people where they want to go, at times they want to go at speeds they want to go and prices they are willing to be paid.

That's what's different about me. I don't care about Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, Aircoach, Dublin Coach, Citylink or anyone for that matter. I care about the bigger picture as a daily user of transport on this island and ultimately the user has to become before the interests of any kind of left vs right political ideology based argument.

This is the big problem with the CIE companies in general, they are hell bent on preserving the status quo and looking after themselves and their own huge share of the market, they don't care two hoots about the bigger picture, this by the way, is one of the very reasons the NTA has rose to prominence in recent years, trying to bind people together to provide a service that benefits the public rather than just themselves.

foggy_lad

The main issue with separating out expressway services from the rest is that most expressway services are operated as PSO services despite the company receiving no subsidy for those routes, Examples are the 004/X4 to Waterford, there is no PSO service serving Carlow and no service from all the stops from Waterford to Dublin. The majority of expressway services have no PSO alternative for people who rely on Free travel.

What is needed is to get rid of expressway and just have Bus Eireann the state bus service and let people choose if they want to travel on BE or the private operators.

devnull

foggy_lad wrote: »

The main issue with separating out expressway services from the rest is that most expressway services are operated as PSO services despite the company receiving no subsidy for those routes, Examples are the 004/X4 to Waterford, there is no PSO service serving Carlow and no service from all the stops from Waterford to Dublin. The majority of expressway services have no PSO alternative for people who rely on Free travel.

Expressway take free travel passes just like privates do who joined before the scheme was closed due to new entrants.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Goverment are not asking BE to run Expressway so Goverment Funding does not come into it. It's just like for example the Goverment is not asking DB to run the 747,757 service etc.

Yes I understand that, but these services like dublin to cork,Galway limerick ect should be their bread and butter which helps offer, improve and keep lower services that nobody else will run. By adding competition onto them routes is draining there income.

As you said about DB airport services they run them for extra revenue but if we put more PO onto them routes we are only bleeding DB of income and the public are going to be loosing out elsewhere by either haven to have other services cut, fares raised or government help.

devnull

IE 222 wrote: »

Yes I understand that, but these services like dublin to cork,Galway limerick ect should be their bread and butter which helps offer, improve and keep lower services that nobody else will run.

This is called cross subsidization and state aid against a commercial business and this is not allowed under EU law. Sorry about that.

By adding competition onto them routes is draining there income.

There are only two operators on any one COMMERCIAL route, this is all that is allowed. Non stop and multi-stop are considered different routes. There is nobody allowed to operate on routes which compete with PSO routes and money earnt on PSO routes cannot be used for commercial services because of EU rules.

Should someone who travels between Dublin and Galway have to stop at every little Town because it is better for BE that they do? That is not what public transport is about and it never should be. It should be about taking people where the want to go and when they want to go and if BE don't do that properly privates should be able to exploit those gaps.

The only reason we have non stop services between the cities is because private operators started them. The state operators said that there was no demand for them in most instances and were not interested in them until the privates started and suddenly they were interested in running them.

As you said about DB airport services they run them for extra revenue but if we put more PO onto them routes we are only bleeding DB of income

Go look up the history of Aircoach and you will find a rather different story historically. The vast majority of their customers on airport routes have not come from Dublin Bus and have instead come from taxis and people who would never normally take a city bus. They aimed at a different market from Dublin Bus which was reflected in their pricing and also the on board environment and their slogan of travel in luxury.

Go read up about the official NTA figures for bus services between Dublin and the main cities and you will find rather than taking passengers from the state companies, the actual number of passengers traveling by bus has increased a lot. This means that the new services are attracting a large modal shift, even from the private care which helps reduce congestion and traffic for the rest of us.

What has been proven is that if an operator operates a innovative service that doesn't exist it doesn't merely take passengers from Dublin Bus or bus Eireann, it can also expand the market and drive up demand and result in real modal shift in this country. This is the same principle as Ryanair use against Aer Lingus and other operators, but if we used your anaology we should simply ban Ryanair because them being present would harm Aer Lingus.

When Aircoach started there was no comparable fast frequent service from Leopardstown, Ballsbridge, Donnybrook or Sandyford. Dublin Bus said it would not work and there would not be any demand for it. Within a few months their service was pelted with eggs and Dublin Bus suddenly launched a much improved network of services to the airport which they previously argued were not going to be viable.

Tell that to the people of Greystones, Tallaght, Blackrock, Bray, Sandymount and many other places that Dublin Bus had no interest in serving. Tell them that they are not going to have a bus service anymore because that Dublin Bus says that is viable and we are going to ban private operators in filling the gaps.

Tell people in the big cities that the operators who provided them non stop services that allow them to get between cities in times competitive with the train, that because of the fact privates took the risk to start up a service, this was a bad thing and it was better when they had to spend 25% extra time on the bus through all the villages because BE is more important than their transport links.

the public are going to be loosing out elsewhere by either haven to have other services cut, fares raised or government help.

This is called cross subsidization and state aid against a commercial business and this is not allowed under EU law as well. The commercial arms and the PSO arms have to be totally separate.

What comes across in your posts is that the only thing you care about is the financial health of BE and DB and ensuring they maintain their stranglehold on the market no matter what, you seem to believe that BE and DB is "us" and the other operators are "them" and that for some reason the public should not be trusted with what they want and need and instead we should have some sort of nanny state that decides for them what is best.

The fact is private operators exist because gaps were left in the commercial market by the public operators and the privates offered services that suited the needs of people that the public services did not. Many of these routes the public operators had no interest in or thought they were not viable until a private proved that they can attract customs.

Many more people are able to travel via the motorway network between cities in far faster times than they could 10 years ago and far more people have a connection to Dublin Airport directly and more easily than in the past. That is something to celebrate and something that benefits every man woman and child in this country, and to even suggest that we'd be better off if they didn't put these route forward, is quite laughable.

I can only guess you are a CIE staff member or associated to them. Unfortunately the fact that there are many people I believe in these companies that only care about self preservation rather than the overall bigger picture is exactlty why the NTA is needed and transport is in the state that it is. Too many people looking after their own interests.l

IE 222

devnull wrote: »

You have no idea how Expressway Works. It's not entitled to use public money for any of it's routes and has to be entire self-funding. It does not operate any PSO routes, it operates strictly commercial routes the same as any private operator.

If you are suggesting that there is cross subsidization going on that would be illegal under EU State aid laws and the privates would have took BE to court now if that was going on obviously. This is the same reason why state funded vehicles cannot operate on Expressway routes.



Privates only operate on routes where they can make a profit because
1) They are not allowed to operate routes that compete directly with PSO routes
2) They are not permitted to tender for routes that receive government funding.



Of course, Dublin Bus operate them out of the kindness of their hearts, it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact the state is paying them to operate these services of course, that is just a co-incidence.

The simple fact is Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann PSO operates routes that are not viable because they are paid to do so. Privates do not operate many of them because they are not paid to do so and in almost all cases would not be allowed to do so anyway.

I know that might not suit the picture you are trying to paint but it is the reality.



I notice that you are talking an awful lot about Bus Eireann and what is good for them and still are not talking about what is good for the passengers and providers a proper innovative round the clock bus service nationwide that takes people where they want to go, at times they want to go at speeds they want to go and prices they are willing to be paid.

That's what's different about me. I don't care about Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, Aircoach, Dublin Coach, Citylink or anyone for that matter. I care about the bigger picture as a daily user of transport on this island and ultimately the user has to become before the interests of any kind of left vs right political ideology based argument.

This is the big problem with the CIE companies in general, they are hell bent on preserving the status quo and looking after themselves and their own huge share of the market, they don't care two hoots about the bigger picture, this by the way, is one of the very reasons the NTA has rose to prominence in recent years, trying to bind people together to provide a service that benefits the public rather than just themselves.

I Understand how it works but what I don't understand is why people are happily allowing it to fail. It's clearly a burden to the company in its current state. Would you be happy to see BE withdraw expressway altogether. In this day and age the company should be able to fund itself but allowing these POs in is bleeding them of income.

Maybe that's what is needed, take away some of the services which are taken for granted. BE serve a lot number people than late night early morning city hoppers who want to travel on motorways. It's a national bus service that connects the country but yet people want to take revenue away and give it to someone else while if they cancel services they be the first onesending moaning. You need to think of the future and the importance of having BE to provide all island services to everybody.

What happens if BE pull out and a PO decides he is not making enough and wants out. Are we going expect BE to jump back in or create more PSOs.

devnull

IE 222 wrote: »

I Understand how it works but what I don't understand is why people are happily allowing it to fail. It's clearly a burden to the company in its current state.

You keep going on about the company. The vast majority of people who use public transport don't care who operates the service they just want a service that meets their needs, whether that be price point, directness, journey time, late night services, early services etc, who runs it I don't care about one bit. Go look at people in London, do they care who runs TFL buses there? Do they even know? Do they even care? They just want a service that suits their needs.

If Expressway isn't working in it's current form it needs to be changed so it does and that is what has been proposed. The key issue here is that management of BE have been poor for many years and have not developed their service the way they should have, instead they have wasted huge amounts on new expressway vehicles and marketing which if only half of that had been diverted to service development on Expressway they'd be in a lot better position.

Over the last 3-4 years BE have spent huge amounts on new Expressway vehicles but the services have not changed in over 10 years. They are more interested in making things look shiny and new and modern without putting money into the nuts and bolts of the service which is something that is not about funding and about the fact that their management do not use funds wisely.

Look at Dublin Coach, they set up their Limerick route using 6-8 year old vehicles and they still were able to attract a huge amount of customers. They could have purchases 10 vehicles at 400k each and spent 4 million on new vehicles, but instead they used older perfectly serviceable vehicles and used the 4m to spend on the service instead. They spent very little on marketing, save for very local targeted marketing which was cheap to carry out and managed to grab a decent part of the Dublin to Limerick market.

If Dublin Coach can do that starting up from nothing, with no real brand recognition, with no investment in new vehicles and little investment in advertising, then surely BE, a well known brand with already a big market on Dublin to Limerick end to end anyway, should be even better placed? But that's the problem. All the new vehicles and shiny marketing campaigns in the world don't alter the fact that the nuts and the bolts of the service are being starved of much needed investment whilst money is being wasted on areas that don't need it.

Would you be happy to see BE withdraw expressway altogether. In this day and age the company should be able to fund itself but allowing these POs in is bleeding them of income.

BE should need to adapt to whatever forces are happening in the market. Sometimes this means that people have to be made redundant and that the business needs to be restructured. The way the BE commercial arm is run is very very poor and it's pretty obvious that most of the board have no real transport background save for working in BE itself.

BE Expressway could be an awful lot better company with better management and people who have experience with competing in the transport area and the open market. If BE Expressway was totally bankrupt and short of cash I'd see your point more, but they just are spending the money they do have in the wrong way. Just one year of buying no new vehicles would mean there was a decent pot of cash free of many millions to invest in service development, but they continue to spend tens of millions of euro on vehicles for services which their competitors eat away at.

Maybe that's what is needed, take away some of the services which are taken for granted. BE serve a lot number people than late night early morning city hoppers who want to travel on motorways. It's a national bus service that connects the country.

But the early morning and late evening and motorway passengers should not be told that they do not matter because the health of BE is more important than them, the irony is many years ago we heard the argument that private operators would not run services at unsocial hours because they are not convenient for them now we see an argument arguing that they should not be offering such servicdes!

Essentially what needs to happen (and the unions will cry blue murder over this) is that the Expressway network needs reconfigured and operated purely as a commercial basis and any routes that are not working to be reconfigured so they are and if nobody else is offering services and these places have a social need for services, they should be put out to tender and become a new PSO route and operated for a fixed fee of which BE should be able to tender for.

you need to think of the future and the importance of having BE to provide all island services to everybody.

There is no important of having BE to provide all island services to everyone, it is not the slightest bit important in my view because I don't care about any operator public or private and what their interests are.

What is important is having a public transport service that provides to all people and if the market does not provide a commercial service that is serving people and there is an adequate need for it, that the service is then provided as a PSO service. The whole idea of a PSO service is to provide a service to areas or routes which are not commercially viable but are socially necessary.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

You keep going on about the company.

yes because we need the company to ultimately survive to insure they're is a fall back option and to insure routes that are socially necessary will still be provided no matter what.

Bass Reeves

IE 222 wrote: »

I Understand how it works but what I don't understand is why people are happily allowing it to fail. It's clearly a burden to the company in its current state. Would you be happy to see BE withdraw expressway altogether. In this day and age the company should be able to fund itself but allowing these POs in is bleeding them of income.

Maybe that's what is needed, take away some of the services which are taken for granted. BE serve a lot number people than late night early morning city hoppers who want to travel on motorways. It's a national bus service that connects the country but yet people want to take revenue away and give it to someone else while if they cancel services they be the first onesending moaning. You need to think of the future and the importance of having BE to provide all island services to everybody.

What happens if BE pull out and a PO decides he is not making enough and wants out. Are we going expect BE to jump back in or create more PSOs.

The problem is that is where now the bread and butter of the operation is. The person that wants to get to Dublin Aerport ( maybe it should be an i instead of an e) at 2am in the morning rather than the social traveller that is going to Roscrea from Nenagh to collect there OAP. The reality on commercial routes you cannot have cross subsidiation.

This is visible in the broadband telecoms market at present. We have the situation where a rural monopoly (Eir) is the only viable option to provide rural broadband. We then have Comreg trying to provide artificial competition by delaying the awarding a national broadband provider.

The issue with public transport now is if the consumer(traveller) is more important than the worker. Is the worker rights more important than the rights of the passengers he provides a service to.

This goes back to the Ryanair/Aerlingus argument was it more important that Aer Lingus remain as it was or that Joe Soap could go from Dublin( Cork, Limerick, Galway or Knock) to Londan for sub 100 euro.

end of the road wrote: »

yes because we need the company to ultimately survive to insure they're is a fall back option and to insure routes that are socially necessary will still be provided no matter what.

Do we need Aer Lingus. Yes we do but we need competition to it. BE and DB are the same. Ye we need them but we need compeditors to keep fares low.

IE 222

devnull wrote: »

You keep going on about the company. The vast majority of people who use public transport don't care who operates the service they just want a service that meets their needs, whether that be price point, directness, journey time, late night services, early services etc, who runs it I don't care about one bit. Go look at people in London, do they care who runs TFL buses there? Do they even know? Do they even care? They just want a service that suits their needs.

If Expressway isn't working in it's current form it needs to be changed so it does and that is what has been proposed. The key issue here is that management of BE have been poor for many years and have not developed their service the way they should have, instead they have wasted huge amounts on new expressway vehicles and marketing which if only half of that had been diverted to service development on Expressway they'd be in a lot better position.

Over the last 3-4 years BE have spent huge amounts on new Expressway vehicles but the services have not changed in over 10 years. They are more interested in making things look shiny and new and modern without putting money into the nuts and bolts of the service which is something that is not about funding and about the fact that their management do not use funds wisely.

Look at Dublin Coach, they set up their Limerick route using 6-8 year old vehicles and they still were able to attract a huge amount of customers. They could have purchases 10 vehicles at 400k each and spent 4 million on new vehicles, but instead they used older perfectly serviceable vehicles and used the 4m to spend on the service instead. They spent very little on marketing, save for very local targeted marketing which was cheap to carry out and managed to grab a decent part of the Dublin to Limerick market.

If Dublin Coach can do that starting up from nothing, with no real brand recognition, with no investment in new vehicles and little investment in advertising, then surely BE, a well known brand with already a big market on Dublin to Limerick end to end anyway, should be even better placed? But that's the problem. All the new vehicles and shiny marketing campaigns in the world don't alter the fact that the nuts and the bolts of the service are being starved of much needed investment whilst money is being wasted on areas that don't need it.



BE should need to adapt to whatever forces are happening in the market. Sometimes this means that people have to be made redundant and that the business needs to be restructured. The way the BE commercial arm is run is very very poor and it's pretty obvious that most of the board have no real transport background save for working in BE itself.

BE Expressway could be an awful lot better company with better management and people who have experience with competing in the transport area and the open market. If BE Expressway was totally bankrupt and short of cash I'd see your point more, but they just are spending the money they do have in the wrong way. Just one year of buying no new vehicles would mean there was a decent pot of cash free of many millions to invest in service development, but they continue to spend tens of millions of euro on vehicles for services which their competitors eat away at.



But the early morning and late evening and motorway passengers should not be told that they do not matter because the health of BE is more important than them, the irony is many years ago we heard the argument that private operators would not run services at unsocial hours because they are not convenient for them now we see an argument arguing that they should not be offering such servicdes!

Essentially what needs to happen (and the unions will cry blue murder over this) is that the Expressway network needs reconfigured and operated purely as a commercial basis and any routes that are not working to be reconfigured so they are and if nobody else is offering services and these places have a social need for services, they should be put out to tender and become a new PSO route and operated for a fixed fee of which BE should be able to tender for.



There is no important of having BE to provide all island services to everyone, it is not the slightest bit important in my view because I don't care about any operator public or private and what their interests are.

What is important is having a public transport service that provides to all people and if the market does not provide a commercial service that is serving people and there is an adequate need for it, that the service is then provided as a PSO service. The whole idea of a PSO service is to provide a service to areas or routes which are not commercially viable but are socially necessary.

Obviously things need to improve on BE side as well but I'd expect they are taken back by the level of competition that has been allowed to come in. You need to look at BE as a whole more than breaking it down into sections. Fleet renewal goes a bit further than putting shiny new buses onto core routes. These replaced buses filter all the way down to school bus upgrades and routes you and I don't see from one end of the year to the other. Money produced from expressway filters it's way through the whole company due to a lack of funding.

Do you really think PSO covers the full cost of running all these rural and local services BE run. Other services are drained to keep these going and you're been some what shortsighted on the importance of BE as public transport operator and more concern about your own travel requirements than the general public.

Expressway should be able to provide for itself and the wider network but it can't due to its income been taking away from PO. I rather see BE pull expressway and put the problem onto the NTA and let them and the tax payer pick up the tab. PO won't cover half the routes even with PSO funding.

foggy_lad

devnull wrote: »

Expressway take free travel passes just like privates do who joined before the scheme was closed due to new entrants.

Don't the private operators get paid a certain amount for the number of free travel journeys but afaik expressway are not paid any subvention at all and get nothing for carrying free travel passengers

Bass Reeves

IE 222 wrote: »

Obviously things need to improve on BE side as well but I'd expect they are taken back by the level of competition that has been allowed to come in. You need to look at BE as a whole more than breaking it down into sections. Fleet renewal goes a bit further than putting shiny new buses onto core routes. These replaced buses filter all the way down to school bus upgrades and routes you and I don't see from one end of the year to the other. Money produced from expressway filters it's way through the whole company due to a lack of funding.

Do you really think PSO covers the full cost of running all these rural and local services BE run. Other services are drained to keep these going and you're been some what shortsighted on the importance of BE as public transport operator and more concern about your own travel requirements than the general public.

Expressway should be able to provide for itself and the wider network but it can't due to its income been taking away from PO. I rather see BE pull expressway and put the problem onto the NTA and let them and the tax payer pick up the tab. PO won't cover half the routes even with PSO funding.

I think some are undfer the assumption that BE run all the school bus services. This is not the reality most school bus services are now run by private operators. BE was again not flexible enough it was unable to to supply the drivers and the buses. On an interesting aside to show flexibility by an private busoperator. I saw a situtation during the recession where a private bus provider had a contract. He was a distance from the school contract. He had 4 buses on the school run and ran them to both a 2nd level and a primary school. The drivers finished the morning run at say 9.15 am. However the Bus company was located at the starting end of the runs 20 miles away. He did a deal with a business that had a yard near the the schools and his drivers parked the buses here and drove a car he kept parked there back to the yard. Can you imagine BE doing that.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Don't the private operators get paid a certain amount for the number of free travel journeys but afaik expressway are not paid any subvention at all and get nothing for carrying free travel passengers

I am surprised if that is the case. AFAIK they paid a subvention. However I think the PO's are paid/passenger as there rates are cheaper than BE which has negotiated a flat rate.

AlanG

magicbastarder wrote: »

that's a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of unions. they are there to represent the workers. it's the job of the management of the company to make the company profitable.

This is the attitude in Ireland and the UK where unions outside of the public sector have died.
In Germany unions take an active role in the long term prospects of the companies. The result is that German private sector workers have better pay and conditions then their Irish and UK counterparts and German manufacturing has adapted and survived.

LXFlyer

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think some are undfer the assumption that BE run all the school bus services. This is not the reality most school bus services are now run by private operators. BE was again not flexible enough it was unable to to supply the drivers and the buses. On an interesting aside to show flexibility by an private busoperator. I saw a situtation during the recession where a private bus provider had a contract. He was a distance from the school contract. He had 4 buses on the school run and ran them to both a 2nd level and a primary school. The drivers finished the morning run at say 9.15 am. However the Bus company was located at the starting end of the runs 20 miles away. He did a deal with a business that had a yard near the the schools and his drivers parked the buses here and drove a car he kept parked there back to the yard. Can you imagine BE doing that.



I am surprised if that is the case. AFAIK they paid a subvention. However I think the PO's are paid/passenger as there rates are cheaper than BE which has negotiated a flat rate.

Actually BE school bus drivers do in certain cases also work rural services between school runs, and take their break wherever those services layover.

BE do get paid a lump sum for all SW passengers - this isn't classed as a subsidy for Expressway, rather payment for carrying those passengers, and as such is perfectly reasonable.

devnull

foggy_lad wrote: »

Don't the private operators get paid a certain amount for the number of free travel journeys but afaik expressway are not paid any subvention at all and get nothing for carrying free travel passengers

No company gets "subvention" for free travel, they get money from the Department of Social Protection, which is not subvention since subvention comes from the NTA for loss making routes only.Expressway do get paid for free travel customers but the exact arrangements are not in the public domain like all commercial operators.

The only people who do not get paid for free travel pass are private operators and Bus Eireann who started NEW commercial routes since 2011 when the scheme was closed to new licenses which is why GoBE, Aircoach don't take them on their Intercity routes and Citylink don't on their Limerick routes or osme of the newer Dublin Coach services don't.

end of the road

Bass Reeves wrote: »

On an interesting aside to show flexibility by an private busoperator. I saw a situtation during the recession where a private bus provider had a contract. He was a distance from the school contract. He had 4 buses on the school run and ran them to both a 2nd level and a primary school. The drivers finished the morning run at say 9.15 am. However the Bus company was located at the starting end of the runs 20 miles away. He did a deal with a business that had a yard near the the schools and his drivers parked the buses here and drove a car he kept parked there back to the yard. Can you imagine BE doing that.

i can't imagine BE doing that as their school busses get used on other runs inbetween as far as i know. i presume in the case of the private operator you are referring to, the busses are just used for that contract only?

Bass Reeves

end of the road wrote: »

i can't imagine BE doing that as their school busses get used on other runs inbetween as far as i know. i presume in the case of the private operator you are referring to, the busses are just used for that contract only?

As I said this was during the downturn about 3-4 years ago. Lots of bus companies had buses that were not fully utalised. In this case the contracted bus owner as far as I am aware lost other work as well. But it shows you the flexability of him and his staff that in order to preserve contract that they did this for eighteen months. At the time fuel was much more expensive than at present. It was calculated that the fuel savings on the busses was in excess of 500 euro/week if they were all idle. On days there was other work for the buses then the bus went to that work.

foggy_lad

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think some are under the assumption that BE run all the school bus services. This is not the reality most school bus services are now run by private operators.

Is it not the case that BE manage or are contracted to provide all the School bus services and also the far more lucrative special/disabled school transport services where taxis and wheelchair adapted minibuses are mostly used, and that they hire private bus operators and minibus and taxi operators to service many of the different routes?

PopTarts

Has anyone gone about claiming a refund yet for the days the buses were on strike?

I have a annual leap card and was wondering how painful the process is.

Thanks