Wrong info on Citizen's Information site cost frend E500

Mrs OBumble

Partly a rant .. and partly a request to see if there's anything I've missed.

I've been researching PRSI for a friend who is partly self-employed.

The Citizens Information site says "If you earn less than €5,000 from self-employment in a year you are exempt from PRSI".

But the Welfare site (the one whose rules matter) says " All self-employed people aged between 16 years and 66 with earnings more than a specified amount (currently €5,000 per annum) must pay PRSI. "

(bolding mine)

This lad has total earnings of €5009, approx 1500 from PAYE employment and the rest from self-employment.

He'd assumed, based on the Citizen's Information site, that he wouldn't have to pay the minimum PRSI of €500, since his self-employment earnings were less than 5k.

But it seems that CI are wrong, and that the 5k threshold is his entire income.

Now if he'd known that, he could have charged his last job of the year one hour's less labour, and fallen nicely under the 5k threshold.

But because he didn't, he owes Revenue €500. Which of course he wasn't expecting, and doesn't have.

Suffice to say he's not a happy chap at the moment. Made worse by knowing a few PAYE workers who are earning 2-3 times what he does, paying next-to-no tax, and still getting Class A stamps.


Is there anything I've missed here? Anyone got any idea how Revenue are likely to react if he offers to pay €50/month or suchlike?

silent_spark

I *think* the €500 self-employed contribution at that level is voluntary, but advised. It was discussed on another thread here recently. And the Citizens Information site is notorious for having out of date / incorrect information.

Mr. Incognito

So your friend took legal advice off the internet?

Only himself to blame then.

GreatDefector

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

So your friend took legal advice off the internet?

Only himself to blame then.

So never take advice from revenue.ie?
Online banking, nah, can't be trusting that

Because advice by phone or in person is never ever wrong

I fail to see how the medium of information is the problem here

Truly truly bizarre logic

Citizenpain

I'm sure if they searched really really hard they would find an allowable expense for 10 euro to claim and resubmit their return

But as mentioned , paying the 500 does have its benefits

arriba

I may be wrong but, as far as I know, revenue has nothing to do with prsi. Isn't that a DSP issue?

Mr. Incognito

GreatDefector wrote: »

So never take advice from revenue.ie?
Online banking, nah, can't be trusting that

Because advice by phone or in person is never ever wrong

I fail to see how the medium of information is the problem here

Truly truly bizarre logic

Revenue

http://www.revenue.ie/en/disclaimer.html
Disclaimer

The information available from this site is intended as a guide only and does not purport to be a legal interpretation.

In the event of any discrepancy between the version of a document obtained from this website and the designated official version, the designated official version is the authoritative one.

Citizen's information

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/disclaimer.html

Disclaimer

By means of this website, the Citizens Information Board provides information concerning public and social services.

Every reasonable effort has been made to ensure that the information provided by this website is reasonably comprehensive, accurate and clear.

However, the information provided on or via this website may not necessarily be completely comprehensive or accurate, and, for this reason, it is provided on an "AS IS" and "AS AVAILABLE" basis.

If you think you may have noticed any error or omission, please let us know by contacting admin@citizensinformation.ie. It is our policy to correct errors or omissions as soon as any error or omission has been established to our satisfaction.
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I have no idea why you have reference online banking. Do you take legal advice from your bank?

Your friend relied on the internet for advice. It was wrong. That's his own fault.

If you want legal advice see a solicitor.

If you want tax advice see a tax consultant.

These are professionals who are indemnified and insured if they give you incorrect advice.

If you want to research it yourself and get it wrong it's your fault.

Anyone that takes legal advice over the internet really only has themselves to blame.

Lawyers train for many years to become experts in their fields. Why do you think that can be knocked down to a simple answer on a message forum is beyond me.

xabi

I agree about taking advice from the internet, the advice may be correct, but your interpretation may be wrong (not saying that's the case here) - see an accountant for advice.

barneystinson

arriba wrote: »

I may be wrong but, as far as I know, revenue has nothing to do with prsi. Isn't that a DSP issue?

Indeed you are wrong;)

arriba

barneystinson wrote: »

Indeed you are wrong;)

Yes I am 😚. I'll just stay quietly here for a while.

Mrs OBumble

xabi wrote: »

I agree about taking advice from the internet, the advice may be correct, but your interpretation may be wrong (not saying that's the case here) - see an accountant for advice.

Ahh, c'mon. Someone whose earnings for the year are 5k is not going to be paying hundreds to an accountant for tax advice. Just not gonna happen.

In this case, Revenue have issued a notice of advice. They did the interpreting, not me. My friend simply provided the information that they used to do it. I guess he could review his accounts and find an expense he missed .. maybe. But he won't have a receipt for it, which would be dodgy. I'll double-check his addition of the existing expenses, though.

I will notify Citizens Information about the omission on their site, compared to the material on the Welfare site. Frankly, if they aren't going to get it right, it would be more useful if they just linked to the right place than putting up wrong info.

I've also drafted a letter to his TD about the gross unfairness of the situation: low earning self-employed people are paying 10% tax on all income, while similar PAYE employees pay nothing. It won't change anything for this lad, but maybe it's something that can be addressed in future sometime.


Also - re the merits of paying a voluntary contribution: that advice only holds for someone who will retire with assets of over 20k. For someone without that, the difference between contributory and the means-tested non-contributory pension is negligible. In this particular case, it's just not worth it.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

So your friend took legal advice off the internet?

Only himself to blame then.

More to the point he took advice from citizens advice a site which is semi notorious for its errors.

Timbo1987

Revenue are fairly receptive to monthly deals. As long as they are getting paid, they are not too bad.

Except Revenue in Kerry, those guys are notoriously impossible to deal with.

deathtocaptcha

Surely something was bought online that could be deducted. Car insurance, car tax, bus ticket, hailo, phone bill... something that could be legitimately claimed as an expense (even partially) to get €10 knocked off.

It seems to me that somebody thinks they're a big shot tax advisor but when met with some facts, starts sweating and jumping out the window in terror. A bit of creative thinking is all that's needed.

Could he not have "accidentally" over charged a client by an hour which would need to be refunded and therefore bring him under the threshold?

Mrs OBumble

deathtocaptcha wrote: »

Surely something was bought online that could be deducted. Car insurance, car tax, bus ticket, hailo, phone bill... something that could be legitimately claimed as an expense (even partially) to get €10 knocked off.

It seems to me that somebody thinks they're a big shot tax advisor but when met with some facts, starts sweating and jumping out the window in terror. A bit of creative thinking is all that's needed.

You don't really have much idea about how small-time operators work, do you.

No computer, car, no smartphone, bus tickets and pre-pay phone credit top-ups already carefully added up.

I'm most certainly not big-time, or a tax-advisor. But I can read stuff and navigate govt websites. Which realistically should be all that's needed for someone in this situation.

ebbsy

If the person in question has paid a few hundred euros to an accountant he would have knocked up the return and would probably have deducted the cost of his fees from your assessable profit.

Citizens info is very good for entitlements advice etc but I wouldn't go looking for taxation advice off them.