Galway Planning Nightmare

galwayplanning

My partner and I bought a site in South Galway in 2011 for 50K with full planning. We put in an extension of time in 2013, as we were advised by our engineer, but it was rejected. We then spent the next two years trying to get the planning back on the site which has cost us a further 10K on fees and reports required. We are now stuck with an expensive site (which we are still paying back a loan for) with no planning. Does anyone have any advice? We used 2 different engineers and lodged two further applications but the council keep coming back with more issues. I hear cases where people are suing the council as they built a house and it flooded but what about suing them for granting permission in the first place (as that's why we bought it) and now refusing planning on it. The council are not consistent with their approvals and refusals. Any advice would be greatly appreciated

Rackstar

Feel sorry for the situation you are in.

From dealing with councils I've found that you just need to play their game.

Give them everything they ask for, and ensure you have a good local architect / engineer handling the application. Do you know any local councillors? they can make a representation on your behalf.

What happened? Were you stuck no being able to raise finance before the original application lapsed?

galwayplanning

We were living overseas at the time and our engineer advised us that we would get an extension of time on the site as a lot of people were unable to raise the finance or lost their jobs. If only we knew then what we know now we 100% would have started it and built it to roof level.

We have spoke to two councilors who have had separate meetings with the council and explained our frustrations but the council is just telling them that they now want another report done by a hydrogeologist but with no guarantee we will be granted planning. We've got quotes between 4-5K for this report alone.

Rackstar

As you've discovered an extension is not guaranteed.

Your issue lies with your engineer, the council are only doing their job.

Your options are get the report done or sell the site at a loss and let someone else deal with it.

Hopefully you get the report done and get granted planning.

Poor Uncle Tom

Has the development plan changed since the original planning permission was granted? if so has the rural housing strategy changed in the new plan from what was on the previous one?

Johnnyhpipe

What are the reasons for refusal? Without this information its hard to give any assistance.

Angry bird

Planning policies change or perhaps planning should never have been granted in the first place. What's the problem that they need a hydro geologist report? What actually has been the feedback?

galwayplanning

We lodged a new application in late 2014 and they requested further information. In April 2015, the planners recommendations stated the application would have been approved only our engineer never put in a proposal to treat the well water - The exact wording was 1) In the absence of satisfactory evidence of a potable water supply to the proposed development, it is considered that the proposed development would be prejudicial to public health and would seriously endanger the health and safety of persons occupying in the structure. We were told be the planner at the time to apply again with all the same information along with a proposal to treat the well water, That we did and in mid-late 2015 and they came back with a range of issues - 1) Flood Risk - even though a report had been done by the hydrologist that actually advises the council that it would not flood in 1000 years 2) SAC - which we had provided an appropriate assessment which was deemed acceptable in the previous application 3) Surface Water - the day the planner went out on site was last December and it had not stopped raining in the area for over a week 4) Not demonstrated housing need 5) That the development would contravene materially an objective contained in the Galway County Development Plan.
The same information went in both applications but the planners recommendations are completely inconsistent with one another given only there was a difference of a couple of months. I know our engineer mucked up and this whole process has made him look very bad at his job.

Angry bird

Ok, new county development plan came in, in 2015, may explain the difference. Anyway.
1. They're not happy with the flood risk assessment, query what they need.
2. They're not happy with the appropriate assessment, query what they need.
3. Submit on site surface water attenuation proposals.
4. Look up their policy re local linkage and housing need, and find out which one works best for you, and tailor the information accordingly, again query what they need.
5. What objective would it contravene, how can this be addressed.

1-3 are well doable, 4 either you're in or out, 5 ?

Rackstar

Your only option is to proivide the council with the information they require to make the decision.

Hindsight is a great thing but you should have been applying for an extension with a year to go. When you started seeing issues with the extension you should have been submitting your commencement and building the house to protect your investment in the site.

Poor Uncle Tom

Angry bird wrote: »

Ok, new county development plan came in, in 2015, may explain the difference. Anyway.
1. They're not happy with the flood risk assessment, query what they need.
2. They're not happy with the appropriate assessment, query what they need.
3. Submit on site surface water attenuation proposals.
4. Look up their policy re local linkage and housing need, and find out which one works best for you, and tailor the information accordingly, again query what they need.
5. What objective would it contravene, how can this be addressed.

1-3 are well doable, 4 either you're in or out, 5 ?

In a nutshell.

m1b2k3

We had a similar issue, took us four years to get there. From my experience you just need to stay going. you have to provide them with what they request, I think they eventually wear down. The housing need can be a big one and as was said you are either in or out. Before spending another penny I would make sure you meet their needs, as if you don't even an appeal to ABP wont be successful. And also get your Councillor to find out what objective you are at risk of not complying. If you want to message me I have the name of the final engineer we used who I found brilliant, but I think its worth figuring out the point 4 and 5 first otherwise hiring an engineer could be more money down the drain

galwayplanning

Thanks for the replies. The county development plan became effective in Feb 2015 so applied to both applications. They have been given everything they have asked for since 2014 and it's like they just come up with new issues each time. Do we risk spending another 4-5K on a hydrogeologist report when its not even guaranteed? It could turn out like the last 6K we've spent on ecologist and hydrologist reports when they were required in 2014 and 2015 and we were told at the time that's what we needed to get it approved. When we bought the site we met the housing need as we are both from the area with proof of school attendance, club membership, etc, the application in April 2015 we met the housing need and with the same information in December 2015 we "did not demonstrate it". The engineer tells me that there are no meetings to be had with the council regarding planning until 2017. What I can't get my head around is the fact that two applications went in in 2015 and the recommendations for each are completely different. Is it just luck of the draw as to what planner gets the application on their desk as there is no consistency.

ruthie23

I actually know somebody who was recently requested to do a hydrologist report and he got it done for 3k. I will never deal with Galway county council again ! They make up the rules as they go along . You don't stand a chance if they have it in for you your just screwed . They don't even follow their own development plan properly . They quoted policies to me that didn't exist . The quoted a policy to me and when I requested a copy of it under the freedom of information act the policy did not exist ! I could go on and on ! Also they are very sneaky and rarely refuse any applications however if you look at the statistics there is a very high. Level of withdrawals as they call you up and ask you to withdraw it as if they are doing you a favour when in fact they are making their statistics look good !! I had a barrister look at my case and he reckons there are so many flaws in their decisions but nobody challenges them . I actually got granted an extention of time on land that I was planning to purchase but due to their internal made up policy I couldn't build on the site and had to abandon the purchase. You probably need to put together a really good application with everything they have ever asked for and if they refuse it go to An Bord Pleanala and hope for the best. I put in a battle with the council and got nowhere they don't back down. As for Councilors forget about them . They are just parrots that ring the council and repeat back to you what the council have already told you. I contacted a few that were supposed be good and none of them were any good. The council must have serious concerns over the land you are purchasing. I assume the land doesn't flood! If it did you would have known about it by now. Shop around and try get a cheap hydrologist report done and then do a detailed submission about all the different requests over the years and all the requests and fight your corner. I know of a very well know radio presenter in Galway who got refused planning and used his profile to create a scene and guess what he got his planning when he resubmitted it.

Poor Uncle Tom

ruthie23 wrote: »

I actually know somebody who was recently requested to do a hydrologist report and he got it done for 3k. I will never deal with Galway county council again ! They make up the rules as they go along . You don't stand a chance if they have it in for you your just screwed . They don't even follow their own development plan properly . They quoted policies to me that didn't exist . The quoted a policy to me and when I requested a copy of it under the freedom of information act the policy did not exist ! I could go on and on ! Also they are very sneaky and rarely refuse any applications however if you look at the statistics there is a very high. Level of withdrawals as they call you up and ask you to withdraw it as if they are doing you a favour when in fact they are making their statistics look good !! I had a barrister look at my case and he reckons there are so many flaws in their decisions but nobody challenges them . I actually got granted an extention of time on land that I was planning to purchase but due to their internal made up policy I couldn't build on the site and had to abandon the purchase. You probably need to put together a really good application with everything they have ever asked for and if they refuse it go to An Bord Pleanala and hope for the best. I put in a battle with the council and got nowhere they don't back down. As for Councilors forget about them . They are just parrots that ring the council and repeat back to you what the council have already told you. I contacted a few that were supposed be good and none of them were any good. The council must have serious concerns over the land you are purchasing. I assume the land doesn't flood! If it did you would have known about it by now. Shop around and try get a cheap hydrologist report done and then do a detailed submission about all the different requests over the years and all the requests and fight your corner. I know of a very well know radio presenter in Galway who got refused planning and used his profile to create a scene and guess what he got his planning when he resubmitted it.

It is very easy to get disillusioned and bitter towards any Local Authority if you are spending lots of money making applications and ultimately the decisions do not go your way. I have been dealing with Local Authorities as an agent with close to 30 years, including Galway County Council, and I find that the most troublesome area to be dealt with is proposing to develop sites or areas where you are contravening the zoning of that area, the most common one being that of rural housing.

I also find that if you are armed with the correct information from the beginning and you feel you can put together a well designed, well reasoned and well presented proposal in line with the Development Plan and Local Authorities bye laws then you have a good chance of success. If any of the above doesn't fall into place your chances drop, etc.

Also remember in arguing for your proposal that the Local Development Plan is effectively a more detailed derivative of the Regional Development Plan which in turn is a derivative of the National Development Plan. It's amazing how many agents don't even understand this and accept every aspect of a local Development Plan at face value.

If anyone feels any staff 'has it in for them' then there is a duty to gather your evidence and report that staff member. Personally I find it very rare that this actually happens but it can happen.

Realistically your chances of success with any application can be worked out before spending much money on any application, the important part is to be armed with all the correct information from the start. There is a duty on the applicant to do their homework as much as there is for the agent to do theirs.

galwayplanning

I know it is very true and makes you become bitter towards them. Both previous applications we honestly thought we had done that - sat down with the council got their requirements and in turn got every report and assessment they required. Its very depressing every time you put in an application with all the info they require at the time and then they contact the engineer to withdraw it before its refused. I'd prefer if from day one they said no way would it ever have been granted planning but the sad thing is they granted planning in 2008 on it. I don't think it's a case of a staff member having it in for us but I just think its a joke that two people working for the same authority at the same level come up with total different conclusions for the same application in the space of 8 months.

galwayplanning

Your so right they do ring and say withdraw before a refusal goes on file. It is an absolute joke, they don't realise that they are actually messing with peoples' lives. We've already purchased this site in 2011 with full planning that expired in 2013. Our engineer at the time in 2013 advised us to go for an extension of time as we were living abroad and trying to save money to build. I wish to god they made there mind up in 2008 about the site and never granted planning in the first place. Practically all applications in south Galway bring up the issue of flooding but this half acre site has a house either side and has never flooded. The hydrologist that actually does the flood plain zoning for the council did a report for us and he was disgusted that some planner even tried to contradict him as he was the professional in the field.

BaaLamb

Hi,

I just stumbled across this thread and I'm sorry to read you've had such a tough time with the planning authority. One thing that struck me is that you mention using engineers for your planning applications and I wanted to ask had you considered using a planning consultant? The planning consultant is the expert in this area and is more likely to be able to write a planning application that correctly addresses local planning policy. Even an initial consultation with a professional planner might be worth a go as they should be able to give you a good steer on your chances of success. Check out the Irish Planning Institute for a list of planners http://www.irishplanninginstitute.ie/consultants/connaught

Also to say that you should be able to resubmit the same reports again for the hydrology and AA if the Galway CoCo planners didn't raise an issue with it. Again a planner could definitely advise on this kind of stuff too.

Just my tuppence worth. Hope it might help even a bit.