Roll of clover in Irish grassland ♧

GrasstoMilk

Are we missing a trick?!

My view on clover has changed recently, for last number of year's no clover was sown at reseeding and very lite left in older awards due to spraying

Cows currently grazing a field reseeded last season.
Good size, takes herd 5 days to graze the 3 paddocks in main season.
Grazing this field for last 4 days and will be in it for another 4.

The lift in milk yield and solids every time I go into it is too significant not to notice.
Now maybe it's due to the variety too but I think its a combination effect.

Cows clean it to the board each grazing, 20t grown to date, will do 2t more, growth from 1/1 to 1/4 ranged from 1200 to 1900 on a paddock basis.

Even on the beef side lads would be mad Imo not to sow clover ley's - grow 10t Dm/ha with 50kg N /ha - that's not even 2 bags of CAN!!

I think my figures there point out that low growth in the spring is not always the case

(250kgN/ha - spread this year)

Mooooo

That field you re seeded has clover I take it. Have you compared it yo a field of grass on your own farm set at the same time?. This spring just gone was well warmer than average hence the early growth and your drier land would have less issue with poaching also in the shoulders.
One of lad in our group has a few fields with clover, set in the last few years, and he told us that yield consistently drops for him. Now he has cow type the opposite of yours altho he has serious solids for his yields but it I was surprised when he said it given what was coming from clon. And he would have dry ground as well. Have tried clover in the past here but if there is a lot of cutting taking place it can take over too much and ground cover in shoulders was a disaster so poaching and weeds were an big issue. Again maybe warmer drier parts of the country would see benefits but I'd be skeptical here anyway

blue5000

I think at low SR it's a no brainer, at higher SR it's a very fine balance, to get the best out of clover swards you need to be on a 30 day rotation. Your P and K and pH all need to be right.

Clover can't survive a high cover of grass over the winter, so it's harder to get out early in Spring, only way round it is to have some grazing ground where the clover is sacrificed.
I have a red clover silage mix and it grew a serious amount of feed this year.

On one hand you have free N, better mid summer growth in a dry year, higher CP and digestibility.

But the negatives are;
Poor growth at the shoulders,
Poaching,
Herbicides, limited to what you can use.
Possible bloat problems
Harder to manage grass
Lower SR.

Count Mondego

I've reseeded nearly all silage fields over the last six years and put down a good dash of clover with them. Problem now is a nice few weeds such as dandelion are appearing. Clover safe sprays are useless and most minding the clover is costing me with weed growth. Think I'll start blowing them out to sort the weeds properly.

GrasstoMilk

blue5000 wrote: »

I think at low SR it's a no brainer, at higher SR it's a very fine balance, to get the best out of clover swards you need to be on a 30 day rotation. Your P and K and pH all need to be right.

Clover can't survive a high cover of grass over the winter, so it's harder to get out early in Spring, only way round it is to have some grazing ground where the clover is sacrificed.
I have a red clover silage mix and it grew a serious amount of feed this year.

On one hand you have free N, better mid summer growth in a dry year, higher CP and digestibility.

But the negatives are;
Poor growth at the shoulders,
Poaching,
Herbicides, limited to what you can use.
Possible bloat problems
Harder to manage grass
Lower SR.

I am at a high Sr and I think I'm getting a benefit
That particular ground is having great growth at the shoulders. Up at 200/day last week
This farm was particularly cold this spring and it still grew a colossal amount of grass in the spring.
Was quite open in the spring I will admit but I didn't do any damage on that ground

A weed wiper could be an answer to weeds in clover ley's, Ive never seen one in action so I could be wrong

GrasstoMilk

Mooooo wrote: »

That field you re seeded has clover I take it. Have you compared it yo a field of grass on your own farm set at the same time?. This spring just gone was well warmer than average hence the early growth and your drier land would have less issue with poaching also in the shoulders.
One of lad in our group has a few fields with clover, set in the last few years, and he told us that yield consistently drops for him. Now he has cow type the opposite of yours altho he has serious solids for his yields but it I was surprised when he said it given what was coming from clon. And he would have dry ground as well. Have tried clover in the past here but if there is a lot of cutting taking place it can take over too much and ground cover in shoulders was a disaster so poaching and weeds were an big issue. Again maybe warmer drier parts of the country would see benefits but I'd be skeptical here anyway

Yes did on other last year and a few others the year before, about 50% of milk block reseeded in last 3 years but none giving the same kick as thsee paddocks do.
Our farm was particularly cold this spring. Soil temps didn't get over 10 till april

Dawggone

Clover is a no brainer on dry warm land. Can let you down on the shoulders...however there are new hybrid clovers that are doing the biz now.

I depend a lot on clover as I'm limited to 60units N per acre.
Monoculture grasses will be regulated very shortly...

I shouldn't say this as the tillage farmer is getting such a hammering now, but if you plant >50% clover in a sward you qualify for the protein subsidy.

Mooooo

Dawggone wrote: »

Clover is a no brainer on dry warm land. Can let you down on the shoulders...however there are new hybrid clovers that are doing the biz now.

I depend a lot on clover as I'm limited to 60units N per acre.
Monoculture grasses will be regulated very shortly...

I shouldn't say this as the tillage farmer is getting such a hammering now, but if you plant >50% clover in a sward you qualify for the protein subsidy.

Have you grazed swards with that high a percentage of clover? Would that subsidy be any good for a tillage lad to set clover sward for silage for a year before setting another crop. Depends on market for silage I guess

Dawggone

Mooooo wrote: »

Have you grazed swards with that high a percentage of clover? Would that subsidy be any good for a tillage lad to set clover sward for silage for a year before setting another crop. Depends on market for silage I guess

Yep. I've also grazed 100% lucerne without any problems. I think that it's the initial shock to the system that causes bloat plus the fact there's no jersey blood.
Beans would be a much better proposition to tillage farmers...for a whole load of reasons.

Timmaay

Dawggone wrote: »

Yep. I've also grazed 100% lucerne without any problems. I think that it's the initial shock to the system that causes bloat plus the fact there's no jersey blood.
Beans would be a much better proposition to tillage farmers...for a whole load of reasons.

Talking to a chap who runs a feedmill recently, beans really are not economically viable as a protein feed source here in Ireland, even with the government protein support, imported soya etc works out a decent bit cheaper still.

yosemitesam1

Dawggone wrote: »

Monoculture grasses will be regulated very shortly...

Have you any link to anything about this?

Sam Kade

♣️ Where did you get the symbol?

What about the research at solohead? Isn't that a wet farm?

eoinmk2

Has anyone any experience of getting clover established into an old sward? I love the idea of clover, but we have very little of it in our grass, as it's all quite old. With the beef the way it is I can't really justify a full reseed, but will it get established at all by over sowing the old sward? There is a fair butt to the grass so I can't see to much soil seed contact to get the clover germinated. It could be great job if it does establish, or it could be a pure waste if it doesn't.

Sam Kade

eoinmk2 wrote: »

Has anyone any experience of getting clover established into an old sward? I love the idea of clover, but we have very little of it in our grass, as it's all quite old. With the beef the way it is I can't really justify a full reseed, but will it get established at all by over sowing the old sward? There is a fair butt to the grass so I can't see to much soil seed contact to get the clover germinated. It could be great job if it does establish, or it could be a pure waste if it doesn't.

According to Joe Sheehy it isn't worth putting into old swards

http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/analysis/dairy-focus-30-clover-grazing-worth-160-extra-profit-403976.html

Dawggone

Timmaay wrote: »

Talking to a chap who runs a feedmill recently, beans really are not economically viable as a protein feed source here in Ireland, even with the government protein support, imported soya etc works out a decent bit cheaper still.

I'm wondering what he was trying to sell you....because he was talking bullshyte!

Dawggone

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Have you any link to anything about this?

No Sam, but it won't be too long.

Brussels are, in fairness, taking a view that soil is not a medium for soaking chemicals to artificially grow a crop...and rightfully so.

yosemitesam1

Dawggone wrote: »

No Sam, but it won't be too long.

Brussels are, in fairness, taking a view that soil is not a medium for soaking chemicals to artificially grow a crop...and rightfully so.

It'll be interesting to see how tough a stance they'll take on it, could be a much cheaper alternative to the current milk reduction scheme

Dawggone

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see how tough a stance they'll take on it, could be a much cheaper alternative to the current milk reduction scheme

Greening and the three crop rule is their way of curbing monoculture atm.
It has more to do with soil and environmental health.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Dawggone wrote: »

Greening and the three crop rule is their way of curbing monoculture atm.
It has more to do with soil and environmental health.

More to do with following current buzzwords, IMO, but it may have merit despite that.

Dawggone

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

More to do with following current buzzwords, IMO, but it may have merit despite that.

Climate change, environmental awareness etc etc are just buzzwords I suppose...but the consumer is demanding it.
Chemical farming is sooo 1970s.

I have to say that continental Europe is many years ahead.
Just saying.

GrasstoMilk

Dawggone wrote: »

Clover is a no brainer on dry warm land. Can let you down on the shoulders...however there are new hybrid clovers that are doing the biz now.

I depend a lot on clover as I'm limited to 60units N per acre.
Monoculture grasses will be regulated very shortly...

I shouldn't say this as the tillage farmer is getting such a hammering now, but if you plant >50% clover in a sward you qualify for the protein subsidy.

Hybrid clover?
Can you elaborate on this dawg?

Never heard of them, what are they crossed with?

Dawggone

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Hybrid clover?
Can you elaborate on this dawg?

Never heard of them, what are they crossed with?

I've no idea, but I have a parcel that gets flooded every winter due to a motorway, and was advised to plant hybrid clover on it and it works a treat.

Very winter hardy and once soil temps hit 10 or 12 they're away. Supplier will be here this week and I post up any literature. Not cheap.

blue5000

Dawggone wrote: »

I've no idea, but I have a parcel that gets flooded every winter due to a motorway, and was advised to plant hybrid clover on it and it works a treat.

Very winter hardy and once soil temps hit 10 or 12 they're away. Supplier will be here this week and I post up any literature. Not cheap.

Is it low pH tolerant? I've been failing miserably to establish clover on a bog for decades.

Dawggone

blue5000 wrote: »

Is it low pH tolerant? I've been failing miserably to establish clover on a bog for decades.

I don't know I ask the supplier.

Ordinary clovers are ph sensitive.

yosemitesam1

Is it alsike clover (trifolium hybridium)?

tractorporn

Dawggone wrote:

Very winter hardy and once soil temps hit 10 or 12 they're away. Supplier will be here this week and I post up any literature. Not cheap.

Imo clover is a no brainer the only downside is that it doesn't cope well with our wet winters. I'm currently putting 5kgs of Aber clover into our reseeds. That hybrid clover sounds the job.

blue5000 wrote:

Is it low pH tolerant? I've been failing miserably to establish clover on a bog for decades.

I put red clover into a moory black peat soil and and it's now over 2 years in and there's very little of it left I just can't see it working that we'll in those sort of soils.

GrasstoMilk

tractorporn wrote: »

Imo clover is a no brainer the only downside is that it doesn't cope well with our wet winters. I'm currently putting 5kgs of Aber clover into our reseeds. That hybrid clover sounds the job.



I put red clover into a moory black peat soil and and it's now over 2 years in and there's very little of it left I just can't see it working that we'll in those sort of soils.

I hope that was a typo tractorporn and you forgot the 0.?

Dawggone

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

I hope that was a typo tractorporn and you forgot the 0.?

6kg/ha or around 5lbs/acre.

tractorporn

GrasstoMilk wrote:

I hope that was a typo tractorporn and you forgot the 0.?

Nope 5kgs/acre am headed down a very low input system. Would have gone organic only for the housing would need serious work.

GrasstoMilk

tractorporn wrote: »

Nope 5kgs/acre am headed down a very low input system. Would have gone organic only for the housing would need serious work.

That's a serious amount of clover.
I think that's over excessive tbh.
Over 1.5kgs sown has shown there to be no extra gain

mahoney_j

Whilst clover has benefits ,I see none in a high Sr system where max n is been used .that and also the fact our climate ain't suited to it combined with poor spring and back end growth

GrasstoMilk

mahoney_j wrote: »

Whilst clover has benefits ,I see none in a high Sr system where max n is been used .that and also the fact our climate ain't suited to it combined with poor spring and back end growth

Please reread my 1st post.
If that can be replicated it does have its benefits

mahoney_j

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Please reread my 1st post.
If that can be replicated it does have its benefits

It'll never give as much bang or be as reliable as bagged n though that's point I'm trying to make ,no way I'd like to be in any way heavily dependant on it .agreed tho it has some benefits

Who2

Youd really need to be able to utilise it fully for it to be much advantage, between management, the lack of sprays that can be used on it and the cost of reseeding it every four years id say its only average. bloat and getting a decent clean out too without damaging it would be another issue that just wouldnt push it my direction.

GrasstoMilk

If I am not getting any benefit from clover could someone shed some light on how my cows solids and yield goes up when they go into the only field in the place with clover?

Dawggone

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

If I am not getting any benefit from clover could someone shed some light on how my cows solids and yield goes up when they go into the only field in the place with clover?

I'm thinking you well know the answer to that!

Dawggone

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Hybrid clover?
Can you elaborate on this dawg?

Never heard of them, what are they crossed with?

The hybrid clover is called Aurora. It can tolerate flooding, heavy soil, acid soil and saline soils.

Google...trèfle hybrid aurora.

Édit. €3.80/kg.

yosemitesam1

Dawggone wrote: »

The hybrid clover is called Aurora. It can tolerate flooding, heavy soil, acid soil and saline soils.

Google...trèfle hybrid aurora.

Édit. €3.80/kg.

Does it come through one of the big seed companies? Alsike clover over here is a lot dearer than your price

Dawggone

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Does it come through one of the big seed companies? Alsike clover over here is a lot dearer than your price

It's multiplied and assembled in Canada. Don't know anything else sorry.

Mooooo

I see in clon they are feeding 3 kg meal and 3 kg silage and behind target on covers. Be interesting to see the extra costs they have in the shoulders

Farmer Ed

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Is it alsike clover (trifolium hybridium)?

Have you tried alsike? I was reading about it and they say it's toxic to horses. But if cows can handle it it sounds like a good prospect for a more long term solution on acid soils. Would love to hear from anyone with experience of it?

keryl

yes would like to hear more about alsike too.