Cycling Through Pedestrian Lights in Dublin

dixiefly

I drive to work in Dublin most days. I have noticed that the majority of cyclists simply ignore pedestrian lights. Nothing new there and, on some occasions where it is really obvious that there are no pedestrians anywhere nearby I wouldnt really blame them too much.

However, the offshoot of this is that it does get dangerous sometimes to the point that it is getting worrying.

My daughter started college this week and she already has had two incidents with cyclists breaking pedestrian crossings. The first last week as herself and another person were starting to cross.

Yesterday, when was somewhere near Temple Bar and was already crossing the road. She cant remember if there was anyone ahead of her but a cyclist flew through and missed her by an inch. She said he didnt see her and kind of shook his head and went on. It could have been a serious accident for her and the cyclist. He didn't see her as there was a bus stopped at the lights.

This is probably difficult for the gardai to police but something must be done. I am quite concerned now about her crossing several roads a few times a day now.

What is the law for this now? Some legislation needs to be introduced to make it an offence, perhaps it is already, and the punishment must be enough to prevent this as much as possible.

robyntmorton

It is an offence to do so - the legislation is already in place. The issue is enforcement.

Unfortunately, unless AGS catch the person in the act, and can stop them, some cyclists (not all - but you only ever remember the bad ones) will believe "sure, what's the harm"

dixiefly

dixiefly wrote: »

I drive to work in Dublin most days. I have noticed that the majority of cyclists simply ignore pedestrian lights. Nothing new there and, on some occasions where it is really obvious that there are no pedestrians anywhere nearby I wouldnt really blame them too much.

However, the offshoot of this is that it does get dangerous sometimes to the point that it is getting worrying.

My daughter started college this week and she already has had two incidents with cyclists breaking pedestrian crossings. The first last week as herself and another person were starting to cross.

Yesterday, when was somewhere near Temple Bar and was already crossing the road. She cant remember if there was anyone ahead of her but a cyclist flew through and missed her by an inch. She said he didnt see her and kind of shook his head and went on. It could have been a serious accident for her and the cyclist. He didn't see her as there was a bus stopped at the lights.

This is probably difficult for the gardai to police but something must be done. I am quite concerned now about her crossing several roads a few times a day now.

What is the law for this now? Some legislation needs to be introduced to make it an offence, perhaps it is already, and the punishment must be enough to prevent this as much as possible.

It is an offence.

With the greatest of respect, if your daughter is walking to college and you think the principal danger she faces is cyclists at pedestrian crossings, then statistically speaking you should probably relax.

The threads of boards.ie are packed with cyclists who 'nearly' hit someone and 'nearly' caused a terrible accident, but the actual data suggests this isn't something you should worry about too much.

Doesn't make cyclists who fly through pedestrian crossings without looking right of course.

neris

oh.... another 1 of these threads

Wishbone Ash

dixiefly wrote: »

...Some legislation needs to be introduced to make it an offence, perhaps it is already, and the punishment must be enough to prevent this as much as possible.

Unfortunately a minority of cyclists do it simply because they can get away with it. And, as has been said, no one seems to notice those of use who obey the regulations.

horslips

Personally, I would be more concerned about the cars and other mechanically propelled vehicles breaking red lights at pedestrian crossings where there is a junction - which seems to be getting worse by the day.

Do AGS ever take a particular junction and stop a few cars to send out a message? I suggest starting with Mount Street Bridge where the cars along the canal are persistently breaking their lights.

She should carry the umberella

ThisRegard

dixiefly wrote: »

I am quite concerned now about her crossing several roads a few times a day now.

Presumably your daughter is at least 17/18? Aren't you being a bit over anxious? Crossing the street is the least of your worries at that age, as the guys said, when it comes to been mown down by a cyclist it doesn't even appear as a blip on the stats.

Chips Lovell

The OP asked a genuine question. This is meant to be a welcoming place.

Be nice.

07Lapierre

Really bugs me when I see cyclists running red lights! but as robyntmorton says, it is illegal, but the gardai are under resourced and don't enforce it.
I also think that we Irish people accept these minor law infringements as normal.

I hate having to stop at red lights, especially at pedestrian crossings, when nobody is crossing! I use red lights as an opportunity to practice my trackstand and boy do i need the practice!

ThisRegard

ThisRegard wrote: »

Presumably your daughter is at least 17/18? Aren't you being a bit over anxious? Crossing the street is the least of your worries at that age, as the guys said, when it comes to been mown down by a cyclist it doesn't even appear as a blip on the stats.

Presume because they don't get reported?

ThisRegard

Well, anecdotal evidence I know, I worked in the city and got there by walking, cycling, and driving, over the space of almost 20 years and never saw anyone get hit. I know it has happened, but it's extremely rare not to be an issue.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Presume because they don't get reported?

I suspect death by cyclist most certainly gets reported. Serious injury too. You can spin it however you want, it clearly is not a serious issue in terms of actual risk to the public so the OP should be reassured on that basis.

I too have a daughter who walks and cycles around the city and this isn't even something that has occurred to me to worry about (and trust me, I'm a worrier)

Wishbone Ash

ThisRegard wrote: »

Well, anecdotal evidence I know, I worked in the city and got there by walking, cycling, and driving, over the space of almost 20 years and never saw anyone get hit. I know it has happened, but it's extremely rare not to be an issue.

I saw a cyclist clean a girl out of it at the lights at the top of Parliament Street a while back. She was crossing on a green man when mowed down. To make matters worse, she apologized to the cyclist for causing him to crash even though she was bleeding from her head.

Effects

On the flipside, the amount of pedestrians that break the lights to cross the street is pretty bad. A lot of it is herd mentality, one person crosses and the rest follow without looking. Then I end up looking like the bad guy when I ring my bell.
Two pedestrians hit me last year but I've had a good few near misses.

irishrover99

So what's the deal with pedestrian lights which also has a green bike on them. I'm never sure how to react to them so i usually go through them when i'm in a hurry but with caution letting pedestrians have the right of way

TedR

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I saw a cyclist clean a girl out of it at the lights at the top of Parliament Street a while back. She was crossing on a green man when mowed down. To make matters worse, she apologized to the cyclist for causing him to crash even though she was bleeding from her head.

I would invite anyone who thinks cyclist behaviour is little or no problem, to spend ten minutes watching the pedestrian crossing near the above location, on Dame St immediately in front of the Olympia Theatre. Maybe thats the one WishBoneAsh means in fact.
Long downhill sweep from Christchurch towards Trinity, so the cyclists build up a head of steam which in many many cases they are not willing to relinquish for the sake of a pedestrian green crossing man sign. They fly through it regardless.
Try making a comment to one as they barrel on through and you'll get a burst of cyclist invective for your troubles.
I see it all the time, I work next to this location. We all know cyclists are fast and loose with red lights, and this location is one of the worst in Dublin.

Dermot Illogical

TedR wrote: »

We all know cyclists are fast and loose with red lights, and this location is one of the worst in Dublin.

Do we? I'm a cyclist, and I always stop on red.

Wishbone Ash

TedR wrote: »

I would invite anyone who thinks cyclist behaviour is little or no problem, to spend ten minutes watching the pedestrian crossing near the above location, on Dame St immediately in front of the Olympia Theatre. Maybe thats the one WishBoneAsh means in fact.
Long downhill sweep from Christchurch towards Trinity, so the cyclists build up a head of steam which in many many cases they are not willing to relinquish for the sake of a pedestrian green crossing man sign. They fly through it regardless...

Many cyclists coming up Parliament Street also turn left (when the 'right only' green arrow is showing) and then cycle though the pedestrian crossing where pedestrians have a green man. Some even have the audacity to request that I move on when stopped at the side of other vehicles. Seems I'm impeding them by stopping on a red.

Kings Inns or bust

I've gone through reds even had a near miss or two. My issue starts with attitude of some people. When a pedestrian is in the right how do cyclists or motorists - I'd venture I've had more near misses with cars on pedestrian crossings than bikes - feel they've any justification for doing anything than sincerely apologising?

If someone does knock someone down on a crossing one is perfectly entitled to hold them there until the guards arrive in cases with injuries.

MJohnston

Imo this ought to be dealt with in the way most likely to succeed - legalise it but put rules on the legal use.

Here would be my suggestion for rules:

1. If a pedestrian-only crossing, cyclists should stop on a red, then proceed through after stopping when it is clear and safe to do so, ie. similar to how a Stop sign for cars should work, or how flashing-amber lights work.
2. If a pedestrian phase of a regular traffic junction, the above rules apply only if the cyclist is proceeding on a line 'protected' from traffic flow (ie. you're always hugging the curb).
3. If a pedestrian phase of a full 4-way traffic junction where the pedestrian green light only applies to one part of the 4, you must wait (or dismount and walk across).
4. If a pedestrian phase of a full 4-way traffic junction where the pedestrian green is "all way", then proceed under the rules of #1.

TedR

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

Do we? I'm a cyclist, and I always stop on red.

Yes, as cyclists generally, you do run lights.
5 or 10 mins watching a Dublin junction will prove that.

Apparently you personally stop at all red lights, that makes you unusual enough among cyclists. I actually think it would make more sense to change the law to allow bikes to run reds where it is obviously clear to do so, because in the real world that is what happens anyway. I understand that it is frustrating to stop and lose momentum for no good reason. Although hard to make a law that is kind of in place and kind of not would be hard I guess.

But barreling through pedestrian crossings? Never right.

Wishbone Ash

TedR wrote: »

Yes, as cyclists generally, you do run lights. .......

In fairness Ted, a lot more motor vehicles would run red lights if they physically could, but they can't once the vehicle in front has stopped.

ThisRegard

TedR wrote: »

Yes, as cyclists generally, you do run lights.
5 or 10 mins watching a Dublin junction will prove that.

You know him? I don't run reds either, do you know me to prove otherwise? It's another case of holding this forum, and all cyclists, responsible for the actions of other people because we occasionally happen to share the same form of transport.

You'll see many cars run red at the same junction, but we won't hold you answerable to that.

tomasrojo

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

In fairness Ted, a lot more motor vehicles would run red lights if they physically could, but they can't once the vehicle in front has stopped.

Yes, this should be more widely appreciated.

Red-light jumping is pretty dickish though, by anyone. Anyone can do it by mistake now and then, but there are plenty of people who do it as a matter of course.

I was with my youngest walking across a pedestrian crossing a few days ago, and a motorist blasted through the red light. I scrutinised the face of the driver as they passed. It was a friend of my mother's, on her way to visit.

07Lapierre

TedR wrote: »

Yes, as cyclists generally, you do run lights.
5 or 10 mins watching a Dublin junction will prove that.

No I dont! feel free to stand at any junction and watch me.

Decuc500

I've been hit twice in the last few years by a cyclist while walking across a pedestrian crossing on a green man. The last time was a few weeks ago. For any people who might think it’s only a minor accident on a road I can say that it’s pretty bloody sore getting whacked by a bike travelling at a bit of speed. It can shake you up pretty bad.

The reality for pedestrians in Dublin is that you have to be very careful when crossing the lights on a green man.
Unless you’re crossing at the lights on Kildare Street, outside the Dail. Cyclists see the guard stationed there and very rarely break the red. Safest pedestrian crossing in Dublin!

MJohnston

Decuc500 wrote: »

I've been hit twice in the last few years by a cyclist while walking across a pedestrian crossing on a green man. The last time was a few weeks ago. For any people who might think it’s only a minor accident on a road I can say that it’s pretty bloody sore getting whacked by a bike travelling at a bit of speed. It can shake you up pretty bad.

The reality for pedestrians in Dublin is that you have to be very careful when crossing the lights on a green man.
Unless you’re crossing at the lights on Kildare Street, outside the Dail. Cyclists see the guard stationed there and very rarely break the red. Safest pedestrian crossing in Dublin!

And as a cyclist I've had cars break red lights and nearly kill me, or pedestrians walk across red crossings without looking, forcing me to swerve and nearly cause an accident. There a billion and one anecdotes from cyclists, pedestrians, and drivers about the failings of the others. We know already!

seamus

irishrover99 wrote: »

So what's the deal with pedestrian lights which also has a green bike on them. I'm never sure how to react to them so i usually go through them when i'm in a hurry but with caution letting pedestrians have the right of way

The purpose of the green bike light is to allow bikes to cross when they are travelling in the same direction as the pedestrians - and when they are using the crossing.

If you are travelling perpendicular to the crossing, or you are on the road, the light doesn't apply to you, only the main traffic lights do.

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

In fairness Ted, a lot more motor vehicles would run red lights if they physically could, but they can't once the vehicle in front has stopped.

This is it. As any other cyclist who does stop at red lights will attest to, every single change of the lights will see multiple cars break the orange or red. The only reason more don't do it is because someone eventually stops and prevents others from going through.

The story I've told multiple times is when I stopped at a light, and a car rolled up beside me and asked me why I stopped. I pointed at the red. He asked if I could get points for not stopping. I said "No". And he asked again why I bothered stopping. He didn't understand why I'd stop if nothing could really be done about it.

This is the typical attitude of most road users - only obey the laws which are likely to have consequences.

Wishbone Ash

Decuc500 wrote: »

... I can say that it’s pretty bloody sore getting whacked by a bike travelling at a bit of speed...

If given the choice though, I think I'd prefer to be hit by a bike than a motorcycle/car/van/truck/bus.

peneau

horslips wrote: »

Personally, I would be more concerned about the cars and other mechanically propelled vehicles breaking red lights at pedestrian crossings where there is a junction - which seems to be getting worse by the day.

Do AGS ever take a particular junction and stop a few cars to send out a message? I suggest starting with Mount Street Bridge where the cars along the canal are persistently breaking their lights.

You're spot on there, cycle that route daily regular red light car runners has also to be said in my experience the majority of people on bikes at that junction daily run the red too.

Decuc500

MJohnston wrote: »

And as a cyclist I've had cars break red lights and nearly kill me, or pedestrians walk across red crossings without looking, forcing me to swerve and nearly cause an accident. There a billion and one anecdotes from cyclists, pedestrians, and drivers about the failings of the others. We know already!

I'm just responding to the topic raised by the op. It's about cyclists breaking the lights at pedestrian crossings.

TedR

I say many bikes break lights, the argument back is that cars do it too, or would do it more if they could..
I dont dispute that. A car breaking a light is even more dangerous, thats clear as day. Why would I defend that? I dont.

I didnt say that all cyclists break lights, or that all cyclists are responsible for all ills on the road.
But many many do run reds, and it would be refreshing to have some of the pro cycling lobbyists to freewheel down off the high moral ground just come straight out and accept that its a problem in Dublin, more so than in other cities.

And yes, bad car driver behaviour/poor driving skills also 100% bad

Over and out, I know an un-winnable debate when I see one

ps believe or not, I cycle and I drive in the city, so I hope I can see that neither side is perfect

Tombo2001

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

The OP asked a genuine question. This is meant to be a welcoming place.

Be nice.

With due respect, he asked a leading question that will inevitably give an opportunity to people to bash cyclists; as per usual.

Yet again.

Does he have the same concern about cars speeding in the city?

Does he have the same concern about cars breaking lights in the city (a tad more dangerous, when it occurs, as it does very frequently)?

I suspect not. indeed if he is typical of the wider motoring community, he probably does both himself.

No, its the cyclists, always the cyclists......

ThisRegard

Decuc500 wrote: »

For any people who might think it’s only a minor accident on a road I can say that it’s pretty bloody sore getting whacked by a bike travelling at a bit of speed. It can shake you up pretty bad.

There's no doubt it's bloody painful, and I acknowledged it happens, but not to the point where new laws or task forces are required to combat it.

The gardai have previously had days in which they target such behaviour, they just need to do it more regularly.

Dermot Illogical

TedR wrote: »

Yes, as cyclists generally, you do run lights.
5 or 10 mins watching a Dublin junction will prove that.

Apparently you personally stop at all red lights, that makes you unusual enough among cyclists. I actually think it would make more sense to change the law to allow bikes to run reds where it is obviously clear to do so, because in the real world that is what happens anyway. I understand that it is frustrating to stop and lose momentum for no good reason. Although hard to make a law that is kind of in place and kind of not would be hard I guess.

But barreling through pedestrian crossings? Never right.

Not. A. Fuppin'. Homogenous. Group.

MJohnston

Cyclists do this....drivers do that....pedestrians also do this...yawn, yawn, yawn.

Why can't we just discuss what would actually make sense as a law for this for cyclists? I saw the current law is somewhat inadequate because (a) it can actually be more dangerous for cyclists at specific junctions (b) a law that is not enforced and not respected isn't up to the task.

Chips Lovell

OK, OP got their answer. Cycling through a pedestrian crossing is an offence, punishable by an on the spot fine.

Thread's now descended into the usual sniping and whataboutery. Locked.