All Ireland Finals

Only one Keano

Anyone following the All Ireland Finals in Carton this week? Anyone playing or supporting their clubs? And any predictions???

by the way am told this will be the last year they will be hosting All Irelands in Carton and from next year on finals will be again rotated around the clubs. Much preferred this as felt Carton was soul-less and the finals had lost so much from being moved away from the clubs!

yawhat?

I see Slievenamon won an All Ireland title at the weekend. A great result for a small club according to the club captain on golfnet. 1,885 male members with handicaps according to howdidido.

It's a great achievement nonetheless and a spin through Google shows the calibre of golfer available to Slievenamon. For example, Google tells me one team member has previously won two all Ireland competitions, a Star newspaper all Ireland golf society title and the Holmpatrick Cup with an all expenses paid trip to St Andrews last year. Thankfully his handicap didn't fall below 16 last year or he wouldn't have been eligible for last weekend.

Google helps identify a team brimming with serial winners of open fourballs and team events. And now they have a green pennant, I'm green with envy.

Don't ya just love inter club golf!!

Senna

Sure according to the regular posters on here, there's no such thing as bandits and we are just jealous that we didn't win.;)

Keano

Don't feed the troll boys and girls.

Tom.D.BJJ

If that's true, then it's cheating pure and simple.

First Up

yawhat? wrote:

I see Slievenamon won an All Ireland title at the weekend. A great result for a small club according to the club captain on golfnet. 1,885 male members with handicaps according to howdidido.

It must have been nice for some of the members to finally meet each other.

opinionated3

At my club we are actually struggling to get members to step up and play inter club purely because they are sick of coming up at teams stacked with out and out bandits. Incoming club captain made a plea at our latest presentation for players to try make the effort next year to play for the club. It's disappointing tbh....i played pierce purcell one year, was warned what to expect, and it was 100% correct. A joke of a competition. ....

The Rape of Lucretia

opinionated3 wrote: »

Incoming club captain made a plea at our latest presentation for players to try make the effort next year to play for the club

What case did he try to make for them - surely there isnt one, or is he just not tuned in to how interclub golf works ?
Sounds like a fine club, and one a lot could try to emulate. Kudos for the members for declining to be involved.
What can be really sickening is the applause some clubs seem to accord interclub winners - the further they go in the competition, the lower they are on the scale of hypocritical bandit scum, in my opinion.

opinionated3

Tbh he didn't really make a case as such, apart from the fact that we have quite a large membership and should be producing players that can challenge for the pennants. My argument is that we DO have players that can challenge, that are GENUINE handicappers relative to bruen, purcell etc but they are put off because of what's going on in the wider scheme of things in these competitions. Don't get me wrong, we certainly also have our problems with bandits but they really only rear their ugly head in internal comps like teams of four, scrambles, classics etc. I'm not sure what effect the new gui handicap rules, that were issued at the start of this year, will have on next year's teams. I can only hope it's something positive. I'm personally hoping to try out for our bruen team next year as i think it's a great privilege to represent your club.

jtown

http://gui.intelligentgolf.ie/matchdetail/532/

getoffthepot

My young lad won decider on 19th for Castle.

Kingswood Rover

getoffthepot wrote: »

My young lad won decider on 19th for Castle.

Howya, i always wondered if Alex Gleeson is Harry's son

getoffthepot

Sorry, wouldn't know that.

bobster453

Howdidido has the wrong figures for snamon.Theres just over 1100 members.As someone who was heavily involved in that club for 16 years..treasurer..trustee..ex captain
.i can honestly say that by and large over the years the club did all in its power to properly maintain the hc system and there were genuine people involved at all levels who were unfortunately tarred with the same brush as the ungenuine ones.However over the past few years a cohort took control through member apathy and this has led to the current situation whereby ...and i need to be very careful here..certain individuals of a righteous notoriety with regards to classics and other non qualifying competitions came to prominence and the dictat now would appear to be win at all costs rather than the honour of representing your club.I know quite a few members of long standing who..lets say..will not be showering the winners with accolades,especially as Mick Cashman was a good friend of snamon and a gentleman who deserves to be remembered with honour and respect which might not be the case in this instance.For me i am glad to no longer be associated with snamon as it spares me the embarrassment of being tarred with an all ireland "win"in such a manner
Apologies for the longest post ever but felt it needed to be said.

bobster453

yawhat? wrote: »

I see Slievenamon won an All Ireland title at the weekend. A great result for a small club according to the club captain on golfnet. 1,885 male members with handicaps according to howdidido.

It's a great achievement nonetheless and a spin through Google shows the calibre of golfer available to Slievenamon. For example, Google tells me one team member has previously won two all Ireland competitions, a Star newspaper all Ireland golf society title and the Holmpatrick Cup with an all expenses paid trip to St Andrews last year. Thankfully his handicap didn't fall below 16 last year or he wouldn't have been eligible for last weekend.

Google helps identify a team brimming with serial winners of open fourballs and team events. And now they have a green pennant, I'm green with envy.

Don't ya just love inter club golf!!

Actually i believe 2 team members..who were not members last year as they are transient members each year wherever the cheapest fee is..won either 3 or 4 foreign holidays through classics in one year a few years back.Another team member i know was a long standing member of another local club until they went out of their way in attempts to reduce his handicap.Another team member who joined this year lives locally and i hear was given distance membership to entice him to join and all the above were single handicap golfers at one stage.I was present when one team member was bragging about playing off 8 a number of years ago and is now on 20 plus.Are they to blame or the system for being wide open for years and allowing them to use it.None of the above received their high handicaps in snamon..they brought them with them from other more established clubs.

opinionated3

Are they to blame?? Imo absolutely. I think they simply have no shame, are totally dishonest and as a knock on effect are making our national competitions a bit of a joke. ... I was always told that golf was a game of honour and honesty. I've seen lads call penalties against themselves and I've been full of admiration for their actions. These guys are the opposite of them. Unfortunately i don't see an improvement in the whole thing coming any time soon. ...

fearruanua

http://gui.intelligentgolf.ie/purcell

Poor nuremore are getting an awful hammering this morning from nenagh in the pierce semi final

LuckyGent88

fearruanua wrote: »

http://gui.intelligentgolf.ie/purcell

Poor nuremore a getting an awful hammering this morning from nenagh in the pierce semi final

Nenagh are another absolute hit team. Always are.

Dtoffee

opinionated3 wrote: »

Are they to blame?? Imo absolutely. I think they simply have no shame, are totally dishonest and as a knock on effect are making our national competitions a bit of a joke. ...

While I agree they have no shame, the fact is that the GUI and its affiliated clubs are ultimately the ones who are responsible. They have the records, they organise the competitions and they have failed to deal with serial winners for fear of losing members ..... but in my opinion, they are losing more by not fronting down any player seen to be winning at will.

I would ban new players from representing their clubs for the first full year of their membership, this would immediately cause a problem for the poaching clubs who are chasing pennants. It would also cause a problem for the mercenaries and club hoppers as a two year committment could expose their prize haul at that club .... most handicaps are transferred, but I doubt if a players prize winning history is passed on and that is something that could easily be done.

I would seriously question the amateur status of some of these serial winners ..... if a guy has won a holiday worth prob €1000, a Driver worth €400 and an assortment of other team prizes (tv's, clubs, bags etc) then something needs to be done. Has anyone lost their amatuer status recently ? how would you find out ?

As I said, its a GUI / club problem and until they decide to really act .... it will continue.

Name and shame is my solution, highlight every players prize winning performances as part of their permanent GUI history... then we will soon see whos at it.

bobster453

Dtoffee wrote: »

While I agree they have no shame, the fact is that the GUI and its affiliated clubs are ultimately the ones who are responsible. They have the records, they organise the competitions and they have failed to deal with serial winners for fear of losing members ..... but in my opinion, they are losing more by not fronting down any player seen to be winning at will.

I would ban new players from representing their clubs for the first full year of their membership, this would immediately cause a problem for the poaching clubs who are chasing pennants. It would also cause a problem for the mercenaries and club hoppers as a two year committment could expose their prize haul at that club .... most handicaps are transferred, but I doubt if a players prize winning history is passed on and that is something that could easily be done.

I would seriously question the amateur status of some of these serial winners ..... if a guy has won a holiday worth prob €1000, a Driver worth €400 and an assortment of other team prizes (tv's, clubs, bags etc) then something needs to be done. Has anyone lost their amatuer status recently ? how would you find out ?

As I said, its a GUI / club problem and until they decide to really act .... it will continue.

Name and shame is my solution, highlight every players prize winning performances as part of their permanent GUI history... then we will soon see whos at it.

Great post.The Gui do not recognise classics or any of the competitions certain clubs and companies flout for handicap purposes.Why?? Because the clubs themselves would lose revenue and the GUI after all only enforces decisions clubs make.

One slight improvement is only allowing members to gain one shot above their lowest handicap in the current year as opposed to what went before.
However this too could be improved.I went from 15 to 15.9 this year then cut to 14.4 now on 14.7. I can go to 15.4 this year.Hopefully not.However the way it should be imo is 10 .1s max regardless of what yoi start at.
The efgect of this would be to give those majority of golfers like me who only hit a streak now and agin a level playing field against those who are capable of playing off lower handicaps but inflate them thro artificial scores in competitions.
So if i then started on 15 and went out to 15.9 then cut to 14.4 i would only be able to get one more .1 for the year.
If i was of a mind to i could have brought in one less point when i got cut,win the competition and still be off 16 for the end of this year.
If clubs are serious about tackling bandits then do something about it

The Rape of Lucretia

The shame any team winning a pennant in the handicapped interclub competitions brings on a club is horrendous. Fortunately ours hasnt won anything in a good few years. Going out in the first or second round in all competitions is the hallmark of an honest club. Better only, would be standing up and calling a spade a spade, and not entering them at all. (Does Royal County Down abstain from the handicapped ones? Not sure).

Russman

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Going out in the first or second round in all competitions is the hallmark of an honest club.

My club must be the most honest club in the world so......every bloody year !!:D:D

fearruanua

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The shame any team winning a pennant in the handicapped interclub competitions brings on a club is horrendous. Fortunately ours hasnt won anything in a good few years. Going out in the first or second round in all competitions is the hallmark of an honest club. Better only, would be standing up and calling a spade a spade, and not entering them at all. (Does Royal County Down abstain from the handicapped ones? Not sure).

Forgive for my scepticism
Certain club won their matches
6&4
7&6
6&5
Called in(were A/S)
Called in (were 8up after 10)

Maybe the other club just had a really bad day

LuckyGent88

Barton shield and junior cup finals are very tight at the moment. Good finishes in store.

Those scores by nenagh are a joke. I'd love to find out their gross scores. Nenagh also won the JB Carr this year comfortably.

getoffthepot

Castle win junior cup

yawhat?

Agree wholeheartedly with Dtoffee above. The GUI need to start keeping records of team scores and fourball scores and making sure all winning scores in opens and classics are published on line with names, clubs and handicaps. Automatic cuts need to be applied to all members of winning teams irrespective of conditions, scores or a persons contribution to the team score. These can be graded for handicap levels. If you think this is unfair, don't enter and stick to singles.

With regard to Nenagh, it's very difficult to comment without seeing the gross scores. But just google the names and you see guys winning fourballs, consistently featuring in team events, doing well in the winter leagues and shooting 61 67 to win Captains Prize. It's hard to find a winner or a place in a run of the mill singles.

Even writing this I'm thinking am I being harsh or unfair? Maybe I am, but it's very hard to take those scores at face value after a brief Google search. The GUI certainly shouldn't.

The Rape of Lucretia

yawhat? wrote: »

Even writing this I'm thinking am I being harsh or unfair?

Not in the slightest. What is truly astounding is how the GUI can keep a straight face through the whole finals sham when they are knee deep in doodoo. Feting the very golfers who are laughing the face of handicap golf. Ohh the hypocrisy.

acalmenvoy

fearruanua wrote: »

Forgive for my scepticism
Certain club won their matches
6&4
7&6
6&5
Called in(were A/S)
Called in (were 8up after 10)

Maybe the other club just had a really bad day

You would think they would have the sense to put the brakes on the scoring, it's like they're flaunting it. Unbelievable.

D Hayes

Semi-finals of Senior Cup today:

http://gui.intelligentgolf.ie/senior

Same for Bruen:

http://gui.intelligentgolf.ie/bruen

Purcell final:

http://gui.intelligentgolf.ie/purcell

Rikand

fearruanua wrote: »

Forgive for my scepticism
Certain club won their matches
6&4
7&6
6&5
Called in(were A/S)
Called in (were 8up after 10)

Maybe the other club just had a really bad day

Something tells me Match 4 will never play interclub again

Hoof Hearted2

It's a disgrace that the public humiliation of a GUI affiliated club is been facilitated on boards.ie

ChippingSodbury

Rosses Point through to Senior Cup Final

No shame in that one

pinkdoubleeagle

They should be named and shamed. This crowd in the Pierce Purcell are a joke. Has been the same over the last few years with Spanish Point

The Rape of Lucretia

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

Rosses Point through to Senior Cup Final

No shame in that one

Indeed there isnt. Well done RP. Good luck in the final.

seanl77

I was a member in Nenagh for a good few years, the course is very close to where I was reared. Left and joined another club, best thing I ever did. Handicaps are an absolute shambles in Nenagh, this years team is the best ever example, these lads should be off single figures at least. I would be giving lads four or five shots in competition and wouldn't have a hope in hell of coming close to winning or even contending. Captain and presidents prizes are almost embarrassing out there, lads pulling handbrakes so they won't win by too much! Seriously, players finishing with two double bogeys and coming in with 62's!! In fairness the vast majority of Nenagh members are honest golfers, but their reputation is ruined by a greedy minority....

Dbu

Nenagh win Purcell

5&4
5&4
6&4

pinkdoubleeagle

Munster Branch need to start auditing the handicaps in their clubs.
First three should be Nenagh, Spanish Point and Slievenamon
Was up watching the Pierce Purcell yesterday. The standard of golf was far beyond anything I have ever seen at that level.
An absolute joke

Ormondman

I’m a member of Nenagh and I think the focus on one club is entirely wrong. The vast majority of members are honest golfers. I see the work that our handicap committee does – the monitoring of individuals, the general play cuts for known performance etc. They go way above the call of duty and it must be heart-breaking to read some of the commentary on here. They can only use the tools they are given – and the limit on 0.1s is an improvement - but if individuals are of a mind to “sleep” in the long grass for months/years, a handicap committee really can’t do a lot about that. They must be seen to be fair and equitable. Please don’t tar all members with the same brush – most of us are honest golfers.

The list of winners of Pierce Purcell in recent years reads like this (and you go back to 1998 to find Nenagh’s previous win) - 2011 Woodstock, 2012 Newcastle West, 2013 Spanish Point, 2014 Spanish Point, 2015 Thurles. To focus on any individual club is entirely wrong, 100% unfair to the vast majority of members and the voluntary committee members who put themselves in the line of fire. The pattern is pretty obvious to me – 5 of the last 6 winners are North Munster. Thurles is West Munster (but as close as makes no difference). So, the worst problems are in a geographical area and there’s certainly an element of “if you can’t bate ‘em, join ‘em”. There were 2 major classics in Nenagh this year – local players didn’t win either of them on their home course. The worst bandits probably won’t even play in the Pierce Purcell for fear of exposing themselves. Focusing on a particular club or the group of players who win today is ignoring the sleepers in every club.

I have to agree with previous posters that the GUI needs to up their game - force GUI members to report away performances in any non singles competitions into a centralized database connected to the golfnet system and place individuals on a watch list when their performances appear out of line with their handicap. If they don’t report, cut them. If necessary, use the goodwill of the vast majority of GUI members to monitor those individuals. As some posters have mentioned, it’s not easy to hide your golf performances on the internet. Instead of sending elite amateurs to Argentina, spend some money on sorting out problems that average golfers actually care about.

Above all, clubs need to be empowered to tackle this sub-culture under the direction of the GUI. And I say direction, not guidance. Fight the problem, turn the tide, give the vast majority of golfers the tools to answer handicap abuse. Make it clear that golf does not want or need handicap cheats. Somebody mentioned that the GUI is afraid to tackle the problem because it will lose members. It has already lost and continues to lose members because of this problem.

pinkdoubleeagle

Ormondman wrote: »

I’m a member of Nenagh and I think the focus on one club is entirely wrong. The vast majority of members are honest golfers. I see the work that our handicap committee does – the monitoring of individuals, the general play cuts for known performance etc. They go way above the call of duty and it must be heart-breaking to read some of the commentary on here. They can only use the tools they are given – and the limit on 0.1s is an improvement - but if individuals are of a mind to “sleep” in the long grass for months/years, a handicap committee really can’t do a lot about that. They must be seen to be fair and equitable. Please don’t tar all members with the same brush – most of us are honest golfers.

The list of winners of Pierce Purcell in recent years reads like this (and you go back to 1998 to find Nenagh’s previous win) - 2011 Woodstock, 2012 Newcastle West, 2013 Spanish Point, 2014 Spanish Point, 2015 Thurles. To focus on any individual club is entirely wrong, 100% unfair to the vast majority of members and the voluntary committee members who put themselves in the line of fire. The pattern is pretty obvious to me – 5 of the last 6 winners are North Munster. Thurles is West Munster (but as close as makes no difference). So, the worst problems are in a geographical area and there’s certainly an element of “if you can’t bate ‘em, join ‘em”. There were 2 major classics in Nenagh this year – local players didn’t win either of them on their home course. The worst bandits probably won’t even play in the Pierce Purcell for fear of exposing themselves. Focusing on a particular club or the group of players who win today is ignoring the sleepers in every club.

I have to agree with previous posters that the GUI needs to up their game - force GUI members to report away performances in any non singles competitions into a centralized database connected to the golfnet system and place individuals on a watch list when their performances appear out of line with their handicap. If they don’t report, cut them. If necessary, use the goodwill of the vast majority of GUI members to monitor those individuals. As some posters have mentioned, it’s not easy to hide your golf performances on the internet. Instead of sending elite amateurs to Argentina, spend some money on sorting out problems that average golfers actually care about.

Above all, clubs need to be empowered to tackle this sub-culture under the direction of the GUI. And I say direction, not guidance. Fight the problem, turn the tide, give the vast majority of golfers the tools to answer handicap abuse. Make it clear that golf does not want or need handicap cheats. Somebody mentioned that the GUI is afraid to tackle the problem because it will lose members. It has already lost and continues to lose members because of this problem.

Great Post.

Tom.D.BJJ

Ormondman wrote: »

I m a member of Nenagh and I think the focus on one club is entirely wrong. The vast majority of members are honest golfers. I see the work that our handicap committee does the monitoring of individuals, the general play cuts for known performance etc. They go way above the call of duty and it must be heart-breaking to read some of the commentary on here. They can only use the tools they are given and the limit on 0.1s is an improvement - but if individuals are of a mind to sleep in the long grass for months/years, a handicap committee really can t do a lot about that. They must be seen to be fair and equitable. Please don t tar all members with the same brush most of us are honest golfers.

The list of winners of Pierce Purcell in recent years reads like this (and you go back to 1998 to find Nenagh s previous win) - 2011 Woodstock, 2012 Newcastle West, 2013 Spanish Point, 2014 Spanish Point, 2015 Thurles. To focus on any individual club is entirely wrong, 100% unfair to the vast majority of members and the voluntary committee members who put themselves in the line of fire. The pattern is pretty obvious to me 5 of the last 6 winners are North Munster. Thurles is West Munster (but as close as makes no difference). So, the worst problems are in a geographical area and there s certainly an element of if you can t bate em, join em . There were 2 major classics in Nenagh this year local players didn t win either of them on their home course. The worst bandits probably won t even play in the Pierce Purcell for fear of exposing themselves. Focusing on a particular club or the group of players who win today is ignoring the sleepers in every club.

I have to agree with previous posters that the GUI needs to up their game - force GUI members to report away performances in any non singles competitions into a centralized database connected to the golfnet system and place individuals on a watch list when their performances appear out of line with their handicap. If they don t report, cut them. If necessary, use the goodwill of the vast majority of GUI members to monitor those individuals. As some posters have mentioned, it s not easy to hide your golf performances on the internet. Instead of sending elite amateurs to Argentina, spend some money on sorting out problems that average golfers actually care about.

Above all, clubs need to be empowered to tackle this sub-culture under the direction of the GUI. And I say direction, not guidance. Fight the problem, turn the tide, give the vast majority of golfers the tools to answer handicap abuse. Make it clear that golf does not want or need handicap cheats. Somebody mentioned that the GUI is afraid to tackle the problem because it will lose members. It has already lost and continues to lose members because of this problem.

Good post, but the clubs must also take some of the responsibility. They pick the teams at the end of the day.

Tom.D.BJJ

deleted

Rikand

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Actually, one question as a member of Nenagh. The players from Nenagh who won the Purcell. Do you think their handicaps are accurate?

Ormondman wrote: »

. The vast majority of members are honest golfers.

.

Dbu

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

There's no handicaps in Senior Cup or Barton Shield, so of course there is no shame in playing the purest form of the game, but it's kinda funny that the same people every year complain about Purcell and Bruen etc. and still haven't realised that the only way to be competitive in handicapped inter club golf is to mind your handicaps.
For boards to facilitate the public anger at the lack of comprehension of how inter club handicapped golf works and allow that anger be directed at one or a few clubs is a fukking disgrace, when every club in the country is "at it" to some degree or other.
Boards.ie need to get the finger out and put a stop to the unfounded, conjecture that is being incorrectly directed a small few clubs.

Jeez, you need a kitkat or something, put the kettle on Hoof Hearted.
Also, what do you mean by 'when every club in the country is "at it" to some degree or other'

FixdePitchmark

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Good post, but the clubs must also take some of the responsibility. They pick the teams at the end of the day.

Agree with this.

It is the members of a club who establish the atmosphere.

You can't just wash yours hands of it.

If there are any members in a club that have as has been said here 4/5 shots, you know who they are.

Sure the scores in the classics from that club are ridiculous.

First Up

FixdePitchmark wrote:

Sure the scores in the classics from that club are ridiculous.

Name and shame. Make it impossible for the GUI to ignore.

Meanwhile clubs can refuse entrants to their competitions from members of the known "rogue" clubs. That will sort it eventually.

Its hard on organisers of "classics" or charity events but unless this cancer is cut out, the whole system is under threat.

Contrary to the apologist view earlier, not all clubs are "at it". We all know who they are and there is a very close correlation between clubs flogging distance memberships and clubs that facilitate bandits.

Over to you GUI.

The Rape of Lucretia

First Up wrote: »

Name and shame. Make it impossible for the GUI to ignore.

Over to you GUI.

Which is the bizarre bit. Its one thing individual clubs with a few rogues and banditos in classics, and scrambles and the like.
But quite another when it is GUI run and jurisdiction competitions, supposedly all Ireland flagships of the amateur club scene, that assembles the greatest concentration of scoundrels under their noses. Handing out trophies, shaking hands, and congratulatory speeches are a horrific hypocritical endorsement of the biggest problem in the game, by the blazer class who should be leading the way against it.

Ormondman

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Which is the bizarre bit. Its one thing individual clubs with a few rogues and banditos in classics, and scrambles and the like.
But quite another when it is GUI run and jurisdiction competitions, supposedly all Ireland flagships of the amateur club scene, that assembles the greatest concentration of scoundrels under their noses. Handing out trophies, shaking hands, and congratulatory speeches are a horrific hypocritical endorsement of the biggest problem in the game, but the blazer class who should be leading the way against it.

That is a brilliant post. Naming and shaming individuals on a public forum is likely to get you one place - and that's a lawsuit. Naming and shaming entire clubs is wrong because the vast majority of their members are not guilty. This problem is specific to and endemic in Irish golf. It didn't start today or yesterday - it started in the early 80s with the advent of the 0.1 system. It's been getting worse ever since, to the point that it's a real threat to the future of the game. It should demand a coordinated, systemic review and solution from governing bodies - the whack-a-mole approach that we see year after year is not working, and it's not going to work.

FixdePitchmark

Ormondman wrote: »

That is a brilliant post. Naming and shaming individuals on a public forum is likely to get you one place - and that's a lawsuit. Naming and shaming entire clubs is wrong because the vast majority of their members are not guilty. This problem is specific to and endemic in Irish golf. It didn't start today or yesterday - it started in the early 80s with the advent of the 0.1 system. It's been getting worse ever since, to the point that it's a real threat to the future of the game. It should demand a coordinated, systemic review and solution from governing bodies - the whack-a-mole approach that we see year after year is not working, and it's not going to work.

But is that not a bit Irish.

There is a problem in named clubs.
There is a problem in a particular part of the country.

A bit like saying- you can't blame the people for the politicians.
Like Lowry etc

Sort it out.

Dont be looking for someone else to sort out your problems. Sort it out yourselves.

Keano

We are locking this for now to sort a few things out