Keyless driving - opinions?

galah

Hi everyone,

Just looking for some advice/opinions.
Will upgrade my car next year and while shopping around, found a lot of cars featuring keyless driving - so basically some key fob that then enables a pushbutton to start the car (from what i understood).

Now various questions - what are the advantages of this system? Is there still some sort of ignition where i could leave the fob (as my handbag is quite big and i' hate having to search for it..or do i nit need it at all.)? How close is the range for those fobs - could i technically start the car when the fob is still in the house?

do i then also get a separate key to look the door? Or will the car be open and ready to drive as long as my handbag with the fob is around? (Could easily turn messy as we have small kids who sometimes love to sit in the front seat, just playing, for example - buttons can be pushed easier than keys turned..)

I'm not convinved by all this, so any experiences would be great

Cheers!

wonski

galah wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Just looking for some advice/opinions.
Will upgrade my car next year and while shopping around, found a lot of cars featuring keyless driving - so basically some key fob that then enables a pushbutton to start the car (from what i understood).

Now various questions - what are the advantages of this system? Is there still some sort of ignition where i could leave the fob (as my handbag is quite big and i' hate having to search for it..or do i nit need it at all.)? How close is the range for those fobs - could i technically start the car when the fob is still in the house?

do i then also get a separate key to look the door? Or will the car be open and ready to drive as long as my handbag with the fob is around? (Could easily turn messy as we have small kids who sometimes love to sit in the front seat, just playing, for example - buttons can be pushed easier than keys turned..)

I'm not convinved by all this, so any experiences would be great

Cheers!

In Audi A4 you still have a slot and can use it if you want ( at least in the last model I drove from 2013).

As for kids seating in front seat and playing, unless the keys are inside they won't start the car, but never tested the range of those keys, so can't say for sure.

westgolf

VW passat has a slot for key and also wont start unless clutch pedal is fully depressed so little people are safe

bazz26

There are a couple of different type systems depending on the brand of car.

Basic keyless system is where there is no slot in the dashboard for a key, there is a start/stop button that can be activated when the car detects the key. Key fob still needs to be pressed to open and lock the car though.

Full keyless system usually means you can keep your key fob in your pocket or handbag, etc. The car detects the key fob upto a short distance next to the car and automatically locks/unlocks the car when you put your hand on the door lock. This also allows the car to start via the start/stop button on the dashboard or centre console.

The biggest pro is convenience where you don't have to be reaching for your keys to open close doors once they are on your person or in a handbag on your shoulder.

Biggest con is security, the system used itself can be prone to hacking, etc so it's possible a thief can clone the key fob or replicate the system which allows them entry to the car and possibly start it.

ED E

There have been cases of thieves using high gain antennas and walking around the front of the house to repeat the fob and start the car while the owner slept. If I were to buy one Id keep my keys in a faraday cage while at home.

Gman0174

The key fobs are wireless, so always running. With spare, remove the battery right away. Learned that the hard way, both dead together, had to take a long walk to get the right battery.

Del2005

ED E wrote: »

There have been cases of thieves using high gain antennas and walking around the front of the house to repeat the fob and start the car while the owner slept. If I were to buy one Id keep my keys in a faraday cage while at home.

Mine with new batteries only opens the doors when I'm less than a meter away from the car, had someone try to open the doors as I stood closer and closer, and doesn't start unless keys are inside the car. Unless you're leaving the keys just inside the door they're not going to be able to access or start it.

dudara

I have to unlock my car by pressing the button on the fob. To start the car, I have to depress the clutch and then push the Start/Stop button. The fob has to be in proximity to the car at all times to start and keep it running. If the key fob moves away from the car (i.e. I'm the passenger and I have it in my handbag and I hop out to get something), then the car can immobilise until I return.

The range is only a matter of meters.

The one downside I have is that I don't have a "faux" ignition for the key. Psychologically, I'd like that. It's taken a while to condition myself to using a keyless fob.

Oafley Jones

Del2005 wrote: »

Mine with new batteries only opens the doors when I'm less than a meter away from the car, had someone try to open the doors as I stood closer and closer, and doesn't start unless keys are inside the car. Unless you're leaving the keys just inside the door they're not going to be able to access or start it.

They can use a power amplifier. Costs about a tenner and fools the car into thinking the key is right next to it. The actual fob could be up to 100 metres away.

Wibbs

Oafley Jones wrote: »

They can use a power amplifier. Costs about a tenner and fools the car into thinking the key is right next to it. The actual fob could be up to 100 metres away.

+1
While 100 meters away is literally a helluva stretch, 10 isn't. The fact is cars are stolen using this method.

*luddite* I personally think they're a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist, but can be advertised as something useful. And they're adding an obvious security risk. Problem being because one crowd offer it, they'll all have to until it's a given rather than an option.

mickdw

It general it is a useful system. Just keep key in pocket and forget about it.
To be honest, if someone wants to steal your car, they will whether it be by breaking in for your key or whatever so I wouldn't be overly worried.

Wibbs

mickdw wrote: »

To be honest, if someone wants to steal your car, they will whether it be by breaking in for your key or whatever so I wouldn't be overly worried.

This thinking grinds my gears a little TBH. Ditto with the "ah sure isn't it insured like/t'is only a car" stuff. It's defeatist and why scum can get away with stealing more cars than they should. Yes of course if scum really really want to steal your car they likely can, however the owner can make things far more difficult for them. In which case scum being scum will follow the path of least resistance and look at a car that's easier to steal.

The facts are keyless entry and start has been proven to be a security vulnerability and in Ireland too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIO8JMF3gII

That was in Clonee.

JoeA3

It's a great system imo. With current VW's:

- Key can stay in your pocket / bag.
- Car will unlock when you put your hand on the door handle
- To lock, you just glance your thumb over the door handle again
- Boot will open (without opening the other doors) if you use the boot handle as normal. This is very useful if you've bags of shopping + cranky child in tow, etc
- It's clever enough to know if you've accidentally left the key inside the car / inside the boot and will not lock in that case
- The start button is a nice touch.

Different manufacturers probably implement it in slightly different ways but most new-ish systems would be like this.

kirving

Depending on the car you're looking at, check out exactly how it works. I'm my mother's 07 Focus it's a bit odd.

You get a key fob, but in order to start and stop the car you still have to turn a fake key in the steering column just as you normally would - no push button start. The key can just sit in your pocket or bag.

I guess it was Ford trying to keep up with the competition and introduce keyless quickly, and didn't have time to manufacture a new dashboard with a Start/Stop button on it.

It can end up being a bit confusing as you have to press the clutch, and then start the car. If it's out if gear, or you do don't press the clutch and do it quickly you can confuse the system and then have to fully turn off the car to reset it. I'm sure it's improved since then though.

To unlock the car you just pull the handle, and there is a tiniest of pauses while the car searches for the key and then deactivates the lock. You can lock the car by pressing the button on the door handle or on the key itself if you've walked away and forgot. The car won't lock itself when you walk away and do nothing.

grogi

galah wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Just looking for some advice/opinions.
Will upgrade my car next year and while shopping around, found a lot of cars featuring keyless driving - so basically some key fob that then enables a pushbutton to start the car (from what i understood).

Now various questions - what are the advantages of this system? Is there still some sort of ignition where i could leave the fob (as my handbag is quite big and i' hate having to search for it..or do i nit need it at all.)? How close is the range for those fobs - could i technically start the car when the fob is still in the house?

do i then also get a separate key to look the door? Or will the car be open and ready to drive as long as my handbag with the fob is around? (Could easily turn messy as we have small kids who sometimes love to sit in the front seat, just playing, for example - buttons can be pushed easier than keys turned..)

I'm not convinved by all this, so any experiences would be great

Cheers!

a) there are two things - keyless start and keyless entry. The first lets you to start the car without taking the keys from the pocket/purse (the key needs to be in the vehicle), while the latter open the doors (proximity of the vehicle, typically a 1m).

b) IMHO it is a very convenient thing.

c) if you park your car in the driveway and leave your purse in the car, the battery might, depending how everything is implemented, go flat. That is the most common complain about my friend's Lex and wife - I could never tell which one he complains about...

d) Because of regulations, the car should not stop when the key gets out of range... So thieves learned how to amplify those radio messages and can start the car and drive it away without any key.

Pros: it is convenient. If you have the key in your pocket or a bag, you walk up to the car, open the door and start it.

Cons: because there is no physical key in the dash, someone with the key on their person can get out of the car and leave the driver with no way to restart the car next time they stop. Yes, I've done it. I realise that sounds incredibly stupid but if you are in a couple who bounce the key around and share driving it is possible and something to be aware of...

*Kol*

Better to keep the key in your pocket. I used to throw it in the centre console and have jumped out of the car a few times and left the car with the key in it. This has happened mostly at home where I have been distracted getting something out of the boot and forgot to retrieve the key after. I would only realise maybe the next morning that i had left the key in the car.

mickdw

Wibbs wrote: »

This thinking grinds my gears a little TBH. Ditto with the "ah sure isn't it insured like/t'is only a car" stuff. It's defeatist and why scum can get away with stealing more cars than they should. Yes of course if scum really really want to steal your car they likely can, however the owner can make things far more difficult for them. In which case scum being scum will follow the path of least resistance and look at a car that's easier to steal.

The facts are keyless entry and start has been proven to be a security vulnerability and in Ireland too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIO8JMF3gII

That was in Clonee.

Well do you live your life not doing things or having nice things because of scumbags or what they might do or do you go and have the nice things and forget about them.
So do you rather have a car that scumbags will break in for and terrorise your family or one which they believe they can steal without going near the house? I'd take the second option.
Perhaps throwing the car keys into the microwave for the night would completely prevent any radio signal boost schemes.

*Kol*

mickdw wrote: »

Perhaps throwing the car keys into the microwave for the night would completely prevent any radio signal boost schemes.

That would be a good idea until your key got cooked by one of the kids while they are heating up their cereal in the morning!!

mickdw

*Kol* wrote: »

That would be a good idea until your key got cooked by one of the kids while they are heating up their cereal in the morning!!

What you need to do then is fit a more traditional fob controlled locking system to the microwave. Keep that key under the pillow at night or alternatively keep that key in a box with a pad lock and deposit that key in the local night safe.

Special Circumstances

mickdw wrote: »

What you need to do then is fit a more traditional fob controlled locking system to the microwave. Keep that key under the pillow at night or alternatively keep that key in a box with a pad lock and deposit that key in the local night safe.

Swallow it at night and keep your digestive system running like a swiss watch so you can reliably retrieve it in the morning.

vectra

westgolf wrote: »

VW passat has a slot for key and also wont start unless clutch pedal is fully depressed so little people are safe

My one has no slot.
Unless they changed it on the B8 model?
Also
If I stand outside my car and someone presses the butto inside it will not start.

mickdw

vectra wrote: »

My one has no slot.
Unless they changed it on the B8 model?
Also
If I stand outside my car and someone presses the butto inside it will not start.

Yes current passat has no slot in keyless models.

heroics

mickdw wrote: »

Yes current passat has no slot in keyless models.

The BMW 5 series (F10) has a slot between the cup holders to leave the key. Although a few times I've gotten out and forgotten to bring the key

H3llR4iser

ED E wrote: »

There have been cases of thieves using high gain antennas and walking around the front of the house to repeat the fob and start the car while the owner slept. If I were to buy one Id keep my keys in a faraday cage while at home.

Oafley Jones wrote: »

They can use a power amplifier. Costs about a tenner and fools the car into thinking the key is right next to it. The actual fob could be up to 100 metres away.

But what happens when they drive away and eventually the amplifier loses contact with the key? The car doesn't do an emergency shutdown - e.g. fuel valve cut off? If that's the case, whomever designed the system isn't exactly the brightest tool in the box, or maybe just a bit naive.

Certainly they could just put the car on a towtruck, but that's something that could be done keyless system or not...

grogi

H3llR4iser wrote: »

But what happens when they drive away and eventually the amplifier loses contact with the key? The car doesn't do an emergency shutdown - e.g. fuel valve cut off? If that's the case, whomever designed the system isn't exactly the brightest tool in the box, or maybe just a bit naive.

Such thing would be illegal, at least in Europe.

It might put the driver, whoever he/she is, in a very dangerous position. Examples of rightful driver being in such situation given in this thread already.

theteal

The Mini we had you needed to press a button on the fob to unlock the doors so it all seemed a bit pointless to have a push button start with nowhere to leave the fob - it ended up going in a cup holder

Wibbs

mickdw wrote: »

Well do you live your life not doing things or having nice things because of scumbags or what they might do or do you go and have the nice things and forget about them.

or take simple and sensible precautions like not getting into a system that adds easily exploitable vulnerabilities.

Charles Babbage

I have a keyless car. In my opinion this was one thing that did not need to be invented.

grogi

theteal wrote: »

The Mini we had you needed to press a button on the fob to unlock the doors so it all seemed a bit pointless to have a push button start with nowhere to leave the fob - it ended up going in a cup holder

I press the open button on the key without taking them from my pocket. Would not mind if I could start the car just with the Start button...

H3llR4iser

grogi wrote: »

Such thing would be illegal, at least in Europe.

It might put the driver, whoever he/she is, in a very dangerous position. Examples of rightful driver being in such situation given in this thread already.

Are you sure? I know for a fact that alarm/anti theft systems with a fuel pump cutoff system are sold and installed in EU countries...

Oafley Jones

H3llR4iser wrote: »

But what happens when they drive away and eventually the amplifier loses contact with the key? The car doesn't do an emergency shutdown - e.g. fuel valve cut off? If that's the case, whomever designed the system isn't exactly the brightest tool in the box, or maybe just a bit naive.

Certainly they could just put the car on a towtruck, but that's something that could be done keyless system or not...

Driven off from the missus with the keys in her handbag more than once. You get a warning fairly quickly, but you'd be surprised how far you can go without them. Never got to the point where the car did anything though. Of course they could still load it onto a truck, but why make things so easier for them. Unless you've got some rare car, I'd imagine most car robberies are the same as break ins. Targets are those of least resistance and hassle to a thief.

JoeA3

vectra wrote: »

My one has no slot.
Unless they changed it on the B8 model?
Also
If I stand outside my car and someone presses the butto inside it will not start.

The previous generation Passat (from '05 onwards) had a more primitive system. Wasn't really keyless at all. You had to stick the fob into a slot in the dash. The version in your car is the same as whats in my MK7 Golf.

One bugbear with the system in the Golf is, the key fob is identical to that of a non-keyless Golf. So it still has the flick out key blade which is redundant, and is actually a nuisance, as if you weren't aware the car is keyless you'd flick out the blade and scratch around on the dash looking for the ignition - scratching the dash in the process. For this reason I tape down the blade whenever I leave the car in for a service... I've seen the key that comes with the new Passat and it's much better - the blade is hidden away.

Wibbs

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Are you sure? I know for a fact that alarm/anti theft systems with a fuel pump cutoff system are sold and installed in EU countries...

They are, but as Grogi says they are technically illegal as it's against EU law to interfere with the progress of a vehicle in motion. For example third party security systems like the anti hijack kit from Clifford engage when the car is stolen, but will only activate when the car comes to a stop or is switched off. In other jurisdictions such devices can be set to activate after a set time, say a minute down the road, regardless of what the car is doing.

bazz26

I have full keyless access and keyless start on my F10. I bought 2 of these below:

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/RF-Signal-Blocker-Anti-Radiation-Shield-Case-Bag-Pouch-for-Mobile-Cell-Phone-/201098304588?hash=item2ed2649c4c

Works a treat, the fob no longer works when sealed in the pouch, won't work even when next to the car.

Special Circumstances

bazz26 wrote: »

I have full keyless access and keyless start on my F10. I bought 2 of these below:

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/RF-Signal-Blocker-Anti-Radiation-Shield-Case-Bag-Pouch-for-Mobile-Cell-Phone-/201098304588?hash=item2ed2649c4c

Works a treat, the fob no longer works when sealed in the pouch, won't work even when next to the car.

If it works - great for keys and contactless cards.

If it works - why would you put a switched on mobile phone into it as per the ebay sellers images?????

Austin1

Full keyless access and keyless start on my Renault Fluence. At first I thought this was a gimmick but it has proved to be an absolute godsend when struggling with a 2 yr old getting in and out of the car.

Not too worried about driving off without the keycard as it stays in my wallet which is always kept in my pocket.

The great thing about driving a Fluence is never having concerns about thieves trying to steal it by cloning etc because, ya know, its a frickin RENAULT FLUENCE!

galah

Thanks evryone, great input!

I am still not sure if i like the system - it does sound a bit gimmicky to me, and if i can have the choice, i'd rather go with a normal ignition/key setup - at least then i know where my keys are...:o

vintagevrs

If there is a must have feature on a car, for me it would be keyless entry. It gets used on every journey and is a genuine improvement for convenience. Some people must have nav, others have heated seats or whatever.

Security is currently an issue though, but it wouldn't put me off.

Del2005

Oafley Jones wrote: »

They can use a power amplifier. Costs about a tenner and fools the car into thinking the key is right next to it. The actual fob could be up to 100 metres away.

The fob transmits less than a meter, keep the key more than a meter from the outside and no matter what amp they use the key can't be reached.

Special Circumstances

Del2005 wrote: »

The fob transmits less than a meter, keep the key more than a meter from the outside and no matter what amp they use the key can't be reached.

Signal is boosted and relayed in two directions, not one.

ironclaw

Del2005 wrote: »

The fob transmits less than a meter, keep the key more than a meter from the outside and no matter what amp they use the key can't be reached.

Your passport has an RFID chip in it. Its passive (No battery) and meant to be read from cm's away by immigration etc. With the right kit, which is not expensive, you can read a passport driving down the street from meters away. In fact, its possible to track someone in an airport with their passport in their pocket. Same applies to contact-less credit cards, I couldn't believe when I saw them becoming main stream.

As regards keyless entry, its all well and good until your OCD like me tries to go back and check the car is locked by pulling a door handle :pac: