Hospital security

easygoing1982

I was in the local A&E during the week looking at everything going on as I was in an ideal area to see and basically hear everything. First of all hats off to all staff. They were worked off their feet but I noticed a situation going on that got me thinking.

Basically a young lad came in for self harming,got patched up and was put in a cubicle. 30 mins or so later fella tries to leave and originally security try to stop him with a few nurses following. Eventually security let fella go because they said there's no grounds to stop him but nurse I think in charge disagreed and said fella danger to himself and could be stopped under common law.

So I was just wondering

Does hospital security have grounds/power to stop people from leaving under this common law

Likewise if this person was sectioned can they be stopped by staff/security

Does the hospital not have a duty of care to this person thus forcing the person to stay so they don't commit self harm/suicide.

nuac

Great topic for discussion.

Off ye go

Tigger

I've worked as security in a&e
Don't think a nurse can section a person I think it's a psychiatrist that has seen the person in the last 24 hours
There is probably a duty of care on the nurse to send it up the line but I don't think they have to prevent the person from leaving
If the person was sectioned I think that's a Garda matter or a horpital potter matter or psychiatric nurse
Don't think security are involved I think security are about keeping people out rather than people in
I'm interested it the more educated opinions tho

lifeandtimes

Hospital staff have a duty of car in the duties they perform i.e. medical advice and procedure.

If a person who hasnt been clinically diagnosed with something that makes them incapable of making a rarional decision then the staff cant stop someone from leaving.

I.e. if after surgery patients want to leave 2 hoirs later they can,the time in hospital is only under advisment(which most people avail.of) and most patients can discharge themselves

Manach

Offhand I remember reading of a case where a hospital was sued under tort for allowing a patient to self-discharge (similar to the OP's young lad). Soon after the patient died. The family of the deceased alleged that the hospital failed in the duty of care - they were successful. Whether this could apply in this case, as the person was not formally admitted(?), I'd be unsure.

Fred Swanson

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Peregrinus

Yup. Unless you have been sectioned under the Mental Health legislation as posing a danger to yourself or others by reason of mental ilness - which is a bit of a palaver and not, as already pointed out, something a nurse can do in A&E - or unless you are already under arrest and have been brought to the hospital in garda custody - you're free to leave at any time. The staff will very much want to document that it's your decision, that you have been fully informed and that you understand the risks, and if possible they'd like you to leave in the company of a family member or friend whom they have also briefed on the risks involved, but in the end of the day they can't stop you leaving. A hospital is not a prison.

easygoing1982

Is there certain type of laws. i.e what's this common law which the nurse was adamant the security man could hold the young lad on.

Another angle if the patient was under 18 (I think the hospital I was in treat 16yrs and up) could they hold them.

Just to let everyone know I genuinely have no connection to any patient that needed to be held by security or anyone else. I'm actually on my 3rd night in with an infection so the idol time got me wondering.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Kings Inns or bust

easygoing1982 wrote: »

Is there certain type of laws. i.e what's this common law which the nurse was adamant the security man could hold the young lad on.

Common Law is simply 'judge made law' i.e. case law sometimes reffered to as precedent. Typically many powers of arrest can be found at common law. This is opposed to statute which will also provide for powers of arrest, these powers of arrest may or may not be limited to the guards. For example anyone may arrest someone who they believe on reasonable grounds is guilty of criminal damage.

While I admire Mr. Swanson's bold assertion that there is no common law power of arrest in the instant scenario I must say that my, and many others, overview of the case law on the subject is likely less complete. I would be more comfortable saying, it's unlikely that such a power exists, but it may.

Would I, as a security guard with no legal training, accept the word of a Nurse with, presumably, a similar level of legal training on the subject. I doubt it, although it does raise some interesting points (IMO). Should I be sued for false imprisonment:

(i) can I rely on the instructions of the nurse, or at least recover any damage from them/the employer?

(ii) Would public policy prevent recovery for false imprisonment in the first place?

Great post OP. I look forward to following this one!

Mrs OBumble

easygoing1982 wrote: »

Is there certain type of laws. i.e what's this common law which the nurse was adamant the security man could hold the young lad on.

This could well just be something that the nurse has learned is a good line to use with patients and/or security guards to get them to do what s/he wants, even though it maybe has little factual basis behind it.

I'd expect that the security guard has received training from his/her employer about what they're required to do in situations like this.

easygoing1982

Well I was talking to the security man last night at the door of the hospital. Seemly there's a bit of a rift with them and the nurses. They will only hold a person whose sectioned. Although the nurses say common law the security were told common law means nothing and could be done for false imprisonment and assault.

He did say it's not black and white as being sectioned or not (we had a good chat). If dementia is involved or instances where a patient has just woke from a coma and can't make decisions which is seemly very common they will stop them from leaving.

I've also directed him to this thread.

Nomis21

My ex-wife was sectioned under the mental health act and came home and kicked in my car headlights. I called the police and they arrested her and took her back to the (Supposedly) secure ward in the psychiatric hospital.

When I complained to the hospital about her getting out so easily, the nurse in charge told me: "This is a hospital not a prison".

gctest50

easygoing1982 wrote: »

Well I was talking to the security man last night at the door of the hospital. Seemly there's a bit of a rift with them and the nurses. They will only hold a person whose sectioned. Although the nurses say common law the security were told common law means nothing and could be done for false imprisonment and assault. ........

The nurse is just ass-covering ( since they don't have the resources for proper care etc etc ) - if yer man went out and jumped in the river afterwards there would be a few questions asked

It's not the security guys job to making up for a broken healthcare system.

It is also worth remembering there more than a few gang members out there with attachments to very serious and very wealthy criminals

If the nurse gets it wrong some night - we're all human and we all make mistakes - and the security man gets a bit carried away with all this common law malarky

- the gang will kill the security man - unless they're a crowd of girl guides instead of a gang

eg :

they seem to have no problem chopping people up and dumping them in canals for crossing them :

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35360199

easygoing1982

gctest50 wrote: »

It is also worth remembering there more than a few gang members out there with attachments to very serious and very wealthy criminals

If the nurse gets it wrong some night - we're all human and we all make mistakes - and the security man gets a bit carried away with all this common law malarky

- the gang will kill the security man - unless they're a crowd of girl guides instead of a gang

eg :

Thanks for the info but from what I could make out I got to witness 10/15 minutes of an everyday occurance. Thankfully I haven't heard of any hospital workers being killed and put in suit cases because they tried to keep someone in a hospital.

Musketeer4

Specific laws and formal duties of care aside, is there anything to be said for a moral duty to prevent a fellow person coming to harm?

Say for example there was action brought against the hospital for detaining the guy, could the hospital staff successfully argue that they had genuine reason to believe he was going to come to harm had he walked out and they prevented him from walking off in the geniune belief that what they were doing was in the patient's best interests?

What would a judge make of such an argument?

Certainly if I were a nurse there I could not, in good conscience, let a patient walk out knowing that there was a realistic chance he was going to jump of the nearest bridge or out in front of a train. If that were to happen I don't think some sub-section of some sub article of SI 471 (2002) [made up] saying that a patient can't be detained would make me sleep any easier at night knowing that I was on the right side of the law. I'd rather be on the wrong side of the law and have the book thrown at me if it meant a life was saved and some poor family was spared the trauma of a suicide.

longshot911

If the guy had said he intended to leave the hosptal and kill himself I believe he could be stopped.

But only because I feel anyone could step in to prevent a suicide. The hospital has no special rights.

Having said that, I also feel its likely that stating an intention to kill yourself would be grounds for you to be involuntarily 'sectioned', and I'm sure the hospital know the rules in that case.

Kings Inns or bust

Musketeer4 wrote: »

Specific laws and formal duties of care aside, is there anything to be said for a moral duty to prevent a fellow person coming to harm?

Bear in mind morality and law, thankfully, overlap but are not reliant on each other. The general rule is (and I forget the case having only just looked at the bloody thing) that the law will 'not punish a full grown adult who permits a child to drown in shallow water'. In other words the law, criminal at least, is very slow to go after someone for inaction but is very fast indeed, especially in civil law, to go after someone for an action.

Peregrinus

longshot911 wrote: »

Having said that, I also feel its likely that stating an intention to kill yourself would be grounds for you to be involuntarily 'sectioned', and I'm sure the hospital know the rules in that case.

Two points:

Simply stating an intention to kill yourself isn't in itself grounds for sectioning, though it might be sufficient to raise the issue of whether someone ought to be investigated for possible sectioning. But it's perfectly possible to be suicidal without suffering from a mental disorder.

And, yes, the hospital would know the rules about sectioning. There's a process that has to be gone through, and it's not a process that a nurse on duty in A&E can complete.

Nomis21

Peregrinus wrote: »

Two points:

Simply stating an intention to kill yourself isn't in itself grounds for sectioning, though it might be sufficient to raise the issue of whether someone ought to be investigated for possible sectioning. But it's perfectly possible to be suicidal without suffering from a mental disorder.

And, yes, the hospital would know the rules about sectioning. There's a process that has to be gone through, and it's not a process that a nurse on duty in A&E can complete.

You need two doctors (One must be a psychiatrist) and a social worker to section someone. Gardai are usually involved as well in case the patient does not want to be taken to hospital.

notsoyoungwan

Nope, you don't need a social worker to 'section' someone in this country.
You need an application for detention, which can actually be made by a wide variety of people, including family, gardai, members of the public and authorised officers of the HSE. Then you need a recommendation by a registered medical practitioner, usually a GP but sometimes a casualty officer. Then, once the person has been brought to the approved centre is the psychiatric unit, they are seen by a consultant psychiatrist who has the power to detain them if that is appropriate.

Peregrinus

Yup, the mental-health-social-worker-plus-two-doctors procedure is the one that applies under the UK legislation. The Irish procedure is as outlined by notsoyoungwan.

outinthefields

A security guard or any other member of the public can only use citizen's arrest if they observe a crime being committed, or assist another member of the public who has observed a crime. Leaving a hospital is not a crime unless you are escaping Garda custody, and then you would only be assisting a Guard to recapture a person. Any other actions could leave you open to claims of false imprisonment. The security guard did the right thing for himself and the nurse whatever she thinks.

GM228

outinthefields wrote: »

A security guard or any other member of the public can only use citizen's arrest if they observe a crime being committed

Not just a crime being commited, but also an attempt and it's not just any crime, it must be an "arrestable offence" - an offence which carries a potential punishment of 5 years or more in prison. The offence must also be commited or
attempted by a person of full capacity.

outinthefields wrote: »

or assist another member of the public who has observed a crime.

Be very careful here, the person making the arrest must with reasonable cause, suspect the person they are arresting to be committing or attempting to commit an arrestable offence. An ordinary joe making an arrest could be in trouble if they got it wrong as could the person assisting who may be simply acting on someone's word.

Unless I personally witnessed the offender I would not assist as assisting another member of the public may not satisfy the reasonable cause requirement.