Age 51, finding a job

gazeb21

Hi, I'm a Russian who's been living in Ireland for nearly 20 years. In Ireland I got my Masters degree and phd in applied mathematics and theoretical physics. However, it seems that I am entirely unemployable.

I want to start another masters with the aim of maximum employability (which is especially important considering my age of 51). Does anyone know anything in the maths/statistics/physics area which is well sought after in Dublin/Ireland?

I have already looked into Actuarial Science in UCD (the course material looks like it would be quite easy considering my knowledge) but it is really expensive and it would be hard to pay the money without knowing whether or not I will find a job, or whether those jobs will be snapped up by young, fresh graduates. Are there any areas I should definitely look into? Thanks

Stheno

What have you previously worked as?

LMK

I doubt if you are unemployable, but you might have to start at entry level, provided you know what it is you want to achieve.
With your qualifications if you can code you should be able to pick up work relatively easily if that is something you would consider.
If I was you I'd begin by calling directly (over the phone or in person) into small indigenous companies that you would consider as desirable employers, and have your "elevator pitch" well rehearsed beforehand.
In my view a lot of smaller employers value work experience more valuable than qualifications.

gazeb21

Stheno wrote: »

What have you previously worked as?

I worked for 4.5 years in research, in a research institute - DIAS (Dublin Institute of advanced studies). I also worked in research for 12 years in Russia in a nuclear institute (although I'm not sure if this is accepted by anyone in Ireland as anything important)

gazeb21

LMK wrote: »

I doubt if you are unemployable, but you might have to start at entry level, provided you know what it is you want to achieve.
With your qualifications if you can code you should be able to pick up work relatively easily if that is something you would consider.
If I was you I'd begin by calling directly (over the phone or in person) into small indigenous companies that you would consider as desirable employers, and have your "elevator pitch" well rehearsed beforehand.
In my view a lot of smaller employers value work experience more valuable than qualifications.

What do you mean by entry level?
I cannot code and I would rather not start learning this because it is outside of my field. Maybe as a last resort.
By elevator pitch do you mean like a salesperson selling themselves? Is there any reason to do this over just giving my CV? Doing this in person might also be disadvantageous. I have a strong Russian accent which many people might judge me for.

StupidLikeAFox

gazeb21 wrote: »

Hi, I'm a Russian who's been living in Ireland for nearly 20 years. In Ireland I got my Masters degree and phd in applied mathematics and theoretical physics. However, it seems that I am entirely unemployable.

I want to start another masters with the aim of maximum employability (which is especially important considering my age of 51). Does anyone know anything in the maths/statistics/physics area which is well sought after in Dublin/Ireland?

I have already looked into Actuarial Science in UCD (the course material looks like it would be quite easy considering my knowledge) but it is really expensive and it would be hard to pay the money without knowing whether or not I will find a job, or whether those jobs will be snapped up by young, fresh graduates. Are there any areas I should definitely look into? Thanks

Look into Data Analytics / Data Scientist jobs - they are highly paid, in a growing area, and they specifically look for people with your background

LMK

gazeb21 wrote: »

What do you mean by entry level?
I cannot code and I would rather not start learning this because it is outside of my field. Maybe as a last resort.
By elevator pitch do you mean like a salesperson selling themselves? Is there any reason to do this over just giving my CV? Doing this in person might also be disadvantageous. I have a strong Russian accent which many people might judge me for.

Entry level means willing to begin at the bottom.
Elevator pitch is a short monologue explaining what it is you do to a stranger.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevator_pitch
You accent might be judged by some but not everyone.
Because you are not a new/young college graduate, face to face V's depending on a CV will yield better results IMO, this might be daunting but it will give you direct employer feedback.
You are obviously academic, you experience is in the area of research.....in Ireland you will more likely have to a multi-tasker unless you have a very specific desirable skill that an employer requires, the size of the country dictates this.

Saipanne

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Look into Data Analytics / Data Scientist jobs - they are highly paid, in a growing area, and they specifically look for people with your background

This, banks are especially hiring in these areas.

gazeb21

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Look into Data Analytics / Data Scientist jobs - they are highly paid, in a growing area, and they specifically look for people with your background

What Masters degree should I be looking at to make myself more employable in these areas? Or do you think I may already have enough qualification to convince them?
In terms of applying to banks, how should I do this exactly? Should I call them or send them an email? Sorry, but finding a job is not the strong point

LMK wrote: »

Entry level means willing to begin at the bottom.
Elevator pitch is a short monologue explaining what it is you do to a stranger.
You accent might be judged by some but not everyone.
Because you are not a new/young college graduate, face to face V's depending on a CV will yield better results IMO, this might be daunting but it will give you direct employer feedback.
You are obviously academic, you experience is in the area of research.....in Ireland you will more likely have to a multi-tasker unless you have a very specific desirable skill that an employer requires, the size of the country dictates this.

What exactly do you mean by multi-tasking in this context?
Thank you

Saipanne

Example of job:

http://ie.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=4a3147ed5bef9a5a&from=serp

gazeb21

Saipanne wrote: »

Example of job:

This looks quite good except for "strong programming ability". I will try this nonetheless. Do many of these data analyst jobs require good programming?

Stheno

gazeb21 wrote: »

This looks quite good except for "strong programming ability". I will try this nonetheless. Do many of these data analyst jobs require good programming?

Most would yes.

Mint Aero

gazeb21 wrote: »

What exactly do you mean by multi-tasking in this context?
Thank you

She means learn code and do other stuff that has nothing to do with your profession or interest :rolleyes: only in Ireland do you get HR nonsense like that.

Stheno

gazeb21 wrote: »

What Masters degree should I be looking at to make myself more employable in these areas? Or do you think I may already have enough qualification to convince them?
In terms of applying to banks, how should I do this exactly? Should I call them or send them an email? Sorry, but finding a job is not the strong point

I'd spend your money going to see a careers coach tbh.

Senna

No idea what part of the country you are in, but you would walk into some of these jobs: their in Donegal

https://www.pramerica.ie/careers/jobs/data-science/

Sorry just seen your in Dublin

Stheno

Senna wrote: »

No idea what part of the country you are in, but you would walk into some of these jobs: their in Donegal

https://www.pramerica.ie/careers/jobs/data-science/

Sorry just seen your in Dublin

They are all looking for Oracle SQL and Tableau experience? OP has none of those?

Dr Turk Turkelton

With a PhD in applied mathematics would you not walk into a job in one of the large bookmakers like Paddy Power?

Stheno

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

With a PhD in applied mathematics would you not walk into a job in one of the large bookmakers like Paddy Power?

I think OPs problem is a lack of practical background, PP would probably be looking for the likes of actuaries, and quantitive (sp?) analysts, but would want some IT/Coding skills also, as a lot of the work those guys do is using coding/tech.

The actuarial degree in UCD might be worth considering, I think you get an actuarial qualification from that which is industry recognised.

Senna

Stheno wrote: »

They are all looking for Oracle SQL and Tableau experience? OP has none of those?

No, bit of excel experience would more than do for Data Analysis roles, Data Scientist role is mgt but op role doesn't require coding skills.
Those job specs are another example of HR wish lists which don't represent who they would be willing hire.

gazeb21

Thanks all for the replies. Yes, you get the actuarial qualification from the Masters degree in UCD, however, you say that many of these jobs require programming? I could try learning programming but I will be at a massive disadvantage to the young nowadays. It is not playing to my strength - which would be my good mathematical/problem solving skills

There is another question of just passing the exams required to be an actuary, rather than doing a masters but I am not sure how easy this is to do.

My biggest worry of all is that I will spend 13,000 euro on the masters degree, and find that I am still not suited to work at these companies because they want younger people with experience with programming which I don't have. I will be back at square one, with 13,000 wasted.

Stheno wrote: »

I'd spend your money going to see a careers coach tbh.

Can you suggest any good ones or where I can look for one? I am afraid to go to university ones because they will just advertise their own courses

intheclouds

What about looking for lecturing jobs?

Check out springboard courses, no need to spend 13k when you can do a data science post dip for free in one year with dbs.

Mrs cockett

Sign up with a recruitment agency

NotaSheep

There is a lot of research programmes going around that are European funded - they often look for people with your kid of research expertise. Familiarise yourself with Horizon 2020 EU Funding Programme and you can see who the companies/institutes in this area are (see also CORDIS database for latest projects). You could also register as an expert with the European Union, being 51 can actually be an advantage. You can also register as an expert under other programmes.

Francie Barrett

gazeb21 wrote: »

Thanks all for the replies. Yes, you get the actuarial qualification from the Masters degree in UCD, however, you say that many of these jobs require programming? I could try learning programming but I will be at a massive disadvantage to the young nowadays. It is not playing to my strength - which would be my good mathematical/problem solving skills

Programming is all about problem solving and can be extremely mathematical!

I definitely think you should spend a month or two doing some programming in Java. If you like it, then you can take the Java certification, costs £200. If you pass that, then combined with your degrees, you have enough to start applying for full time entry level jobs (25-30k starting, 50k within 3 years if you work hard). Don't worry about not having a formal qualification in IT. If you can demonstrate an ability to program and have a degree in a related area, you can go for any entry level IT job. In fact, the fact you have a physics/mathematics degree is actually in your favour with some companies. I know any Russian/Polish person I have interviewed with qualifications like yours, I have hired and not regretted it.

Avatar MIA

I doubt another masters is the way to go.

+1 for going to a recruitment agency/careers advisor.

You're already well educated in good career areas.

fret_wimp2

Machine Learning, Analytics & Business intelligence are the way forward, particularly if you have good Mathematics.
Maths are the difficult part, all the reast is easy to learn.

To get an idea of if its something you would enjoy, maybe take a course or two on edx.org. Full of accredited courses that can be taken in a week or two, and also give you a basic intro into the technology side of things. if its something you like, take more courses and see if you can get some actual experience somewhere! you wont be long working up the ladder.

Caroleia

I have heard that Irish Life are recruiting actuaries at the moment, sorry I don't have any contact details though

gazeb21

Thank you all for the replies.

As suggested, I found the post dip in data analytics: springboardcourses.ie/details/4697
This course is done for free with the application deadline running soon. Does this look like a good course?

Mrs cockett wrote: »

Sign up with a recruitment agency

I have already contacted many recruitment agencies over the years. Most of them don't know what to do with me. The ones that want me to be an actuary, want me to first get an exemption from the necessary exams.

NotaSheep wrote: »

There is a lot of research programmes going around that are European funded - they often look for people with your kid of research expertise. Familiarise yourself with Horizon 2020 EU Funding Programme and you can see who the companies/institutes in this area are (see also CORDIS database for latest projects). You could also register as an expert with the European Union, being 51 can actually be an advantage. You can also register as an expert under other programmes.

I have never heard of this programme, will definitely take a look.

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

Machine Learning, Analytics & Business intelligence are the way forward, particularly if you have good Mathematics.
Maths are the difficult part, all the reast is easy to learn.

To get an idea of if its something you would enjoy, maybe take a course or two on edx.org. Full of accredited courses that can be taken in a week or two, and also give you a basic intro into the technology side of things. if its something you like, take more courses and see if you can get some actual experience somewhere! you wont be long working up the ladder.

I will look into those courses.

Avatar MIA wrote: »

I doubt another masters is the way to go.

+1 for going to a recruitment agency/careers advisor.

You're already well educated in good career areas.

As I said, the recruitment agencies seem completely useless. The local employment centre gave me a course about how to find a job. It was interesting but hasn't practically helped. If you can suggest what work I could find with my current qualification (and lacking experience) then you will have saved me from many hours of useless agencies.

Mech1

Just by the way, its easier to get a job if your already working. Go get any job this week, minimum wage even, then concentrate on bettering it.

Teyla Emmagan

StupidLikeAFox wrote:

Look into Data Analytics / Data Scientist jobs - they are highly paid, in a growing area, and they specifically look for people with your background

Exactly what I was thinking. There is a 2 year part time course in NCI in the IFSC which might suit you. It's just called "Data Analytics" I think. It's supposed to be pretty tough and a big time commitment for a part time course and I know the drop out rate is really high, but it's a huge growth area. They literally can't fill the jobs. A guy I know just started and he reckons he will be able to charge a good 600 a day when he finishes. Go and look up 'data analyst' jobs on Irishjobs.is and see what you think. That course is literally starting now though.

Stheno

gazeb21 wrote: »

Thank you all for the replies.

As suggested, I found the post dip in data analytics: springboardcourses.ie/details/4697
This course is done for free with the application deadline running soon. Does this look like a good course?



I have already contacted many recruitment agencies over the years. Most of them don't know what to do with me. The ones that want me to be an actuary, want me to first get an exemption from the necessary exams.



I have never heard of this programme, will definitely take a look.



I will look into those courses.



As I said, the recruitment agencies seem completely useless. The local employment centre gave me a course about how to find a job. It was interesting but hasn't practically helped. If you can suggest what work I could find with my current qualification (and lacking experience) then you will have saved me from many hours of useless agencies.

The more you post, the more I am convinced your issue is that you do not have a qualification that is practical for the work place.

I think all of the courses you have posted above are worth exploring as they will add to your PHD

Teyla Emmagan

gazeb21 wrote:

As suggested, I found the post dip in data analytics: springboardcourses.ie/details/4697 This course is done for free with the application deadline running soon. Does this look like a good course?

That is exactly the course I was thinking of. It's supposed to be very well regarded. I know Facebook sent a load of employees to do it but most of them couldn't take the pace/material.

I think you're too old to start studying the actuarial exams (sorry). You'd be competing for trainee places with people 25 years younger than you. And you'd need a permanent role with exam leave paid for and course fees paid for etc to finish. I know people doing those exams 10 years who still aren't qualified.

Apply for the data analytics course anyway. It would be an option. If you could do that part time and get some relevant experience the rest of the time you would be in a great position for a really good job.

I would also see a career coach as well though. You can't go to college forever.

Teyla Emmagan

Caroleia wrote:

I have heard that Irish Life are recruiting actuaries at the moment, sorry I don't have any contact details though

I know several actuaries in Irish Life. They're all fully or partly qualified tho. They don't take you in off the street sadly!

Stheno

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I know several actuaries in Irish Life. They're all fully or partly qualified tho. They don't take you in off the street sadly!

As do I, they take in graduates with exemptions but none otherwise.

I think the issue here is that OP has no practical experience to back up their impressive educational achievements, and combined with their age, needs to get another qualification to make them more employable.

antix80

Think twice before jumping into a masters.

If you are thinking of actuary, you might consider registering with the institute of actuaries and seeing how many exemptions your current education would give you. Then write on your cv "part-qualified actuary". Actuary jobs are fairly well-paid even at trainee level, and there is still huge demand. You can study part-time and I reckon it would be cheaper than doing a masters (don't quote me on that)

Many actuaries are actually doing courses in programming because so much of their work in numbercrunching in excel.

Level 5 courses can be done part-time and cost next to nothing. The level is basic but it can be a nice hobby course and steer you in the right direction. I'd recommend looking into (1) database management, which will help you to pull data from different sources using SQL and (2) vba. You'll see vba in excel, and essentially it can let you do complex calculations that would be too cumbersome to write in-cell in excel, and also to do data-scrubbing and format reports quickly and automatically.

I'm not guaranteeing anything, but take a few minutes to look at a few youtube videos and see if it looks like something that would benefit you given your past experience.

gazeb21

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Exactly what I was thinking. There is a 2 year part time course in NCI in the IFSC which might suit you. It's just called "Data Analytics" I think. It's supposed to be pretty tough and a big time commitment for a part time course and I know the drop out rate is really high, but it's a huge growth area. They literally can't fill the jobs. A guy I know just started and he reckons he will be able to charge a good 600 a day when he finishes. Go and look up 'data analyst' jobs on Irishjobs.is and see what you think. That course is literally starting now though.

I am applying for this springboard now. If I don't get the springboard, 4,500 euro seems much more reasonable than the 13,000 for actuarial science. Thank you for your honest opinion on doing actuarial science. It seems a decent option but not as good as data analytics. Can you suggest any career coaches?

It is amazing how well you guys are connected through Irish life.

antix80 wrote: »

Think twice before jumping into a masters.

If you are thinking of actuary, you might consider registering with the institute of actuaries and seeing how many exemptions your current education would give you. Then write on your cv "part-qualified actuary". Actuary jobs are fairly well-paid even at trainee level, and there is still huge demand. You can study part-time and I reckon it would be cheaper than doing a masters (don't quote me on that)

Many actuaries are actually doing courses in programming because so much of their work in numbercrunching in excel.

Level 5 courses can be done part-time and cost next to nothing. The level is basic but it can be a nice hobby course and steer you in the right direction. I'd recommend looking into (1) database management, which will help you to pull data from different sources using SQL and (2) vba. You'll see vba in excel, and essentially it can let you do complex calculations that would be too cumbersome to write in-cell in excel, and also to do data-scrubbing and format reports quickly and automatically.

I'm not guaranteeing anything, but take a few minutes to look at a few youtube videos and see if it looks like something that would benefit you given your past experience.

I have looked into some of these actuary things. I emailed them and they told me that my current education gives me no exemptions because I guess DIAS (my institute) is not "partnered" with them. Of course they are not, my education was not originally intended to make me an actuary, even if it will happen to cover similar statistical material.

I have looked into just doing the actuary exams. It seems like it would cost maybe 8,000. Not that much of a difference to 13,000 especially considering that the masters will include lectures from which to study to make it much easier.

This includes other inconveniences, like to be registered with them, I need to complete some 2 full day course or something like that. I will need to look back at the emails to remember.

Again, I know almost nothing about programming but I will look into this. Thank you for your suggestions.
What do you think of the level 9 post dip on data analytics in NCI? It is not a masters (although i don't know the difference)
The level 5 courses seem like a good idea, and now I am starting to see how important the programming is and have it open as a possible option. However, it probably won't be possible to do with data analytics in NCI simultaneously. Perhaps for a future plan during work or to even further improve employability if I still have problems.

Stheno

gazeb21 wrote: »

I am applying for this springboard now. If I don't get the springboard, 4,500 euro seems much more reasonable than the 13,000 for actuarial science. Thank you for your honest opinion on doing actuarial science. It seems a decent option but not as good as data analytics. Can you suggest any career coaches?

It is amazing how well you guys are connected through Irish life.



I have looked into some of these actuary things. I emailed them and they told me that my current education gives me no exemptions because I guess DIAS (my institute) is not "partnered" with them. Of course they are not, my education was not originally intended to make me an actuary, even if it will happen to cover similar statistical material.

I have looked into just doing the actuary exams. It seems like it would cost maybe 8,000. Not that much of a difference to 13,000 especially considering that the masters will include lectures from which to study to make it much easier.

Again, I know almost nothing about programming but I will look into this. Thank you for your suggestions.
What do you think of the level 9 post dip on data analytics in NCI? It is not a masters (although i don't know the difference)
The level 5 courses seem like a good idea, and now I am starting to see how important the programming is and have it open as a possible option. However, it probably won't be possible to do with data analytics in NCI simultaneously. Perhaps for a future plan during work or to even further improve employability if I still have problems.

Go back to basics and see a career coach honestly.

I saw one who is a member of http://www.icfireland.org/ and they literally changed my world in terms of my career.

It should be your first appraoch imo

antix80

gazeb21 wrote: »

Again, I know almost nothing about programming but I will look into this. Thank you for your suggestions.
What do you think of the level 9 post dip on data analytics in NCI? It is not a masters (although i don't know the difference)
The level 5 courses seem like a good idea, and now I am starting to see how important the programming is and have it open as a possible option. However, it probably won't be possible to do with data analytics in NCI simultaneously. Perhaps for a future plan during work or to even further improve employability if I still have problems.

Sorry, I didn't meant to do a full level 5. Just look into a few level 5 modules. They could be 2 hours an evening, once a week for 8 weeks. Cost less than Eur200! Sometimes free if you're unemployed. Or, ya know look up vba crash courses or database management crash courses on youtube. It might de-mystify it for you!

Higher dips and graduate dips are usually 1 year and are level 8 and sometimes level 9. They are for bachelor degree holders who want to gain additional skills. They are taught and as far as I know don't have the research element that masters degrees have. So i reckon less academic, more practical and i'd assume less time-consuming - but will still require an awful lot of time and effort and not something to be rushed in to.

Duckett

have you considered enrolling on a Jobnet programme? - see the following link:

http://www.jobcare.ie/learning/jobnet/

Musketeer4

Would you consider getting on to universities and institutes regarding research or lecturing?

Mrs OBumble

Musketeer4 wrote: »

Would you consider getting on to universities and institutes regarding research or lecturing?

These jobs usually take a fair bit of politicing to get - ie it's who you know, not what you know.


OP, you already look like a professional student. I would think that the very last thing you should do to make yourself employable is another full time course in anything, unless it has a very strong work-placement component and the institute organises the placements.


What is your LinkedIn profile like. Make sure that it's strong (google for tips on good Linked in profiles). Then join some LinkedIn groups about the topics which are mentioned in this thread (data analytics etc) and contribute to the discussions there. If you are noticed as having intelligent things to say in these hot-topics areas, you may find that people even approach you about jobs.

And use some of the free on-line resources to learn Excel some programming. All this wlll cost is some of your time. You don't need to be as good as the hot-shot kids coming out of college. But you do need to be able to programmatically handle datasets. Learn some SQL, at very least.

Kings Inns or bust

The only mathematician I know is a Supreme Court Judge... there's always the bar if all else fails - both types.

gazeb21

Sorry to revive a dead thread, I can create a new one if you like

First off I would like to thank everyone for the suggestions in this thread, it has been really helpful.

A lot has been going on so I haven't had the time to post back. I started the nci springboard course for data analytics but eventually found that I couldn't do it. The maths side of it was easy for me but there was one unavoidable core module which assumed completion of an undergraduate course in computer science which in the end proved to be impossible for me to keep up with, including some business modules which I also found very hard. I talked to the people in charge for a long time and in the end we decided it's not something that makes sense for me to do.

Stheno wrote: »

Go back to basics and see a career coach honestly.

I saw one who is a member of http://www.icfireland.org/ and they literally changed my world in terms of my career.

It should be your first appraoch imo

Really I'm back to look into the career coaching properly. I can't find anything on that website for finding a coach for me. I don't really know where to look for a good coach, considering that my needs might be quite specific to the field of mathematics.. Could anyone help out with that?

amcalester

Do you mind me asking which Springboard course you started?

I'm looking at one of the Data Analytics courses to start in January but like you haven't got an I.T. background. I'm wondering now if that could be a problem.

gazeb21

amcalester wrote: »

Do you mind me asking which Springboard course you started?

I'm looking at one of the Data Analytics courses to start in January but like you haven't got an I.T. background. I'm wondering now if that could be a problem.

It's the NCI postgraduate diploma in data analytics

srsly78

OP take a hint - pretty much every job in your field requires programming skills. I find it unusual that you managed to work for so many years in this field without picking up at least some software skills. Maybe try to find a job as a teacher/lecturer?

Also note that you are already way overqualified, you don't need any more pieces of paper. What you do need however is to study some Python.

gazeb21

srsly78 wrote: »

OP take a hint - pretty much every job in your field requires programming skills. I find it unusual that you managed to work for so many years in this field without picking up at least some software skills. Maybe try to find a job as a teacher/lecturer?

A couple of days ago I applied to the school of mathematics in Trinity college as some sort of Professor assistant. I also emailed the head of the school of mathematics asking for any advice. He just told me that I'm not suitable for any people they are currently looking for.

At the moment I am also learning some excel and primarily focusing on python, considering I've seen the 2 in job descriptions quite a bit

srsly78

Yes I edited my post above just as you replied.

Python is the easiest language for "non-programmers" to pick. Also it has a wealth of libraries available for scientific/engineering usage. Install the "anaconda" python distribution - https://www.continuum.io/downloads

gazeb21

srsly78 wrote: »

Yes I edited my post above just as you replied.

Python is the easiest language for "non-programmers" to pick. Also it has a wealth of libraries available for scientific/engineering usage. Install the "anaconda" python distribution - https://www.continuum.io/downloads

Thank you very much, I will definitely look into this particular one. Do you have any suggestions as to how exactly to go about learning python? So far I am using sites like codeacademy and youtube to get the basics.

Also, just from everything that has been already said, it seems like it is extremely important to also find a career coach. I will still gladly listen to any suggestions for where to look

srsly78

Any online Python course is fine, also you should try to use Linux if possible. Note that all of this is completely free software.

When learning Python, pay specific attention to the NumPy library - this is needed for multidimensional data which you will use a lot.

testaccount123

Look for work in the gambling industry OP, there is no programming requirement.