Attempts at collecting non-existent debt

Cr0z

Here's (possibly) an interesting one, if anyone has any advise, I'd truly appreciate it. Just bare with me...

In brief:
-I bought a car in 2006.
-It was financed through RBS.
-RBS went bust and Certus bought / took over some of their debt.
-I continued to pay my car loan to Certus, as it didn't change anything for me.
-In early 2012 I wanted to sell the car.
-You can't legally sell a car if there's finance on the car.
-To ensure both I and the garage remained within the boundaries law, we made the arrangement with Certus that the garage pay the outstanding ~500-something directly to Certus via cheque.
-I witnessed the cheque going in the mail.
-Matters solved, car ownership legally transferred to the garage, car loan paid off, I got a new car, etc., etc.

Here's the "funny".

-Six months ago, a company called Bluestone called me, and tried to get personal information off me.
-I told them to disappear and not bother me again, as I had no dealings with them and never had.
-Without giving any personal information away, they eventually admitted that the reason they called was that there was an outstanding debt that they had somehow taken over from Certus.
-I told them that they were mistaken.
-They then admitted that the cheque was received 4 years ago.
-However, they also stated that Certus never cashed it, and that when Bluestone took over the debt, they tore up the cheque as it was in Certus' name.
-I told them this was a problem between Certus and Bluestone, and to disappear.
-After a few reminders and me advising them I'd take matters to the DPC and call in a solicitor, they did go away.

And then...

-Now, the other day, a company called Belgard Solicitors called me.
-I returned the call, not knowing who they were, and asked them why they called me.
-Similarly to Bluestone, they wanted to get personal information off me, obviously to no avail.
-They then admitted that they were calling on behalf of Bluestone.
-I told them that I had no dealings with Bluestone and never had.
-They then advised that the phone call had to end right there (which was an interesting manoeuvre).
-I advised in return that they should not make any further attempts contacting me.

Now...

While I find this story somewhat amusing, it's highly unethical behaviour of Bluestone and Belgard Solicitors.

I also believe that they are violating regulations and possibly are in breach of law. But of course, that's me thinking.

I've been contemplating whether I should file complaints to the Data Protection Commissioner for Bluestone trading with false and inaccurate PII data, and for Belgard Solicitors for possessing PII data that they are not legally entitled to possess. I am also considering getting in touch with a solicitor and explore whether we can file suit for harassment and whatnot.

Again, this is me thinking out loud.

Key points:

1. They acknowledged payment.
2. They admitted they tore up the payment when books were passed from Certus to Bluestone.
3. They are now actively engaging in harassment.

My question is - what should I do next?

(And no, after four and a half years, I have no idea what garage it was, so I can't go back there and say "hey, remember this deal 4.5 years ago... And no, while it's little money in the grand scheme of things, I am not paying for something twice).

Many thanks for taking your time to read this.

Any advise would be much appreciated.

The information available on Citizens Information site's section on debt, suggests I should report them to the Garda for harassment.

Cheers,
/c.

hanna200

the cheque written by the garage was never cashed, therefore the agreement never materialised.
Any chance to get back to garage in question, ask to have a word with manager and bookkeeper, ask them to reconcile whether the cheque was cashed or not and perhaps ask to re-issue cheque to new payee.

Or document everything, and let it go to court, then ask to strike it off.

Cr0z

hanna200 wrote: »

the cheque written by the garage was never cashed, therefore the agreement never materialised.
Any chance to get back to garage in question, ask to have a word with manager and bookkeeper, ask them to reconcile whether the cheque was cashed or not and perhaps ask to re-issue cheque to new payee.

Or document everything, and let it go to court, then ask to strike it off.

Thanks for your reply.

What you're saying sounds like traders and lenders have options to receive payment, not touch it for any arbitrary amount of time, and then go back and claim payment was never done.

That would suggest they can also claim interest on payment received but not cashed in.

Is that really correct?

I would've thought that when payment is acknowledged, it has indeed materialised, whether you cash it in or not. If that's not the case, the room for unethical and shady business behaviour would be wide open.

meme74

Report them for harassment? On what grounds? You received a couple of phonecalls, surely not harassment? And on what grounds do you feel they have been highly unethical? Maybe im missing something or not all the details are in your post?

You say the were trying to get personal information from you - this is data protection regulations. They have to establish they are talking to the correct person. I'm sure they also would have informed you that the calls were recorded so I really don't see the big deal here either to be honest. You would have given all of these details to RBS when you first took out the loan and your contract would have stated they have every right to sell on your debt to third party companies.

With regards to the debt, it is the garage who have come out best in all of this - they bought your car from you for €500 less than agreed as the cheque was never cashed. Get back on to them, it is with them you have your battle to resolve all of this.

AlanG

If they transferred the ownership of the car four years ago then there is nothing they can do. Whether they decide to cash the payment is not central. They could put it down as a 500 discount.

I don't know the details of what they have to do when the final payment is made to pay off the finance but if they did what is needed (and I assume the purchasing garage would have ensured they did) then it is not relevant to you whether they cashed the cheque or not. If they have an outstanding payment form a garage they need to chase the garage not you.

If finance is outstanding on the car then it is actually the current car owners problem.

If this was a personal unsecured loan then it is your problem but in that case there would have been no need for you to pay it off before selling the car.

Cr0z

meme74 wrote: »

Report them for harassment? On what grounds? You received a couple of phonecalls, surely not harassment? And on what grounds do you feel they have been highly unethical? Maybe im missing something or not all the details are in your post?

You say the were trying to get personal information from you - this is data protection regulations. They have to establish they are talking to the correct person. I'm sure they also would have informed you that the calls were recorded so I really don't see the big deal here either to be honest. You would have given all of these details to RBS when you first took out the loan and your contract would have stated they have every right to sell on your debt to third party companies.

With regards to the debt, it is the garage who have come out best in all of this - they bought your car from you for €500 less than agreed as the cheque was never cashed. Get back on to them, it is with them you have your battle to resolve all of this.

Thanks for the reply, and I understand your comments.

There is nothing more to the story, but let me clarify to you:

1. If you do not have any dealings with an organisation, then you don't give them your personal information, and you would question why they think they need it, especially since you have completed your obligations in any underlying matter that they may try to pursue.

2. When an organisation like Bluestone keeps calling you 5 times a week, without explaining in detail why they are calling and what they want, but insist you have to give them your PII details for them to get into details, and this is the only thing they keep repeating - give us your details. Then that is what I would call harassment. It is not my obligation to establish what they want - it is theirs.

3. Back to they original point - they accepted payment, and acknowledged that they threw it away. Legally, the ownership of the car could not have transferred without the finance on the car being complete. I no longer possess the car. The finance was on the car, which is no longer mine.

4. Yes, the garage may have come out on top, but that's secondary to the question. Bluestone and their collection company is trying to bypass the original problem, and thus trying to make a case where the finance of the care was never settled, and as such forcing the garage into a state of breach of law.

Anyway, that's just to clarify a few points.

cheers,
/c.

Cr0z

AlanG wrote: »

If they transferred the ownership of the car four years ago then there is nothing they can do. Whether they decide to cash the payment is not central. They could put it down as a 500 discount.

I don't know the details of what they have to do when the final payment is made to pay off the finance but if they did what is needed (and I assume the purchasing garage would have ensured they did) then it is not relevant to you whether they cashed the cheque or not. If they have an outstanding payment form a garage they need to chase the garage not you.

If finance is outstanding on the car then it is actually the current car owners problem.

If this was a personal unsecured loan then it is your problem but in that case there would have been no need for you to pay it off before selling the car.

Thanks for your reply. This was most helpful, and I have an idea of where to go next.

Best,
/c.

dudara

Until the cheque or payment clears, any company will not consider the balance fully cleared. This is the concept of "receipt at risk". So technically, the debt still stands.

In this case, if the cheque had not been cashed/cleared, for whatever reason, they should have contacted the issuer and asked for it to be re-issued. It's not uncommon for this to happen and the way of dealing with it is pretty standard. They messed that up, but it's left you in a spot.

If I were you, I'd apply pressure to them, reminding them that they failed to cash the cheque, and they subsequently failed to follow up to get it reissued. You engaged in good faith and it's now 4 years later.

meme74

Cr0z wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, and I understand your comments.

There is nothing more to the story, but let me clarify to you:

1. If you do not have any dealings with an organisation, then you don't give them your personal information, and you would question why they think they need it, especially since you have completed your obligations in any underlying matter that they may try to pursue.

2. When an organisation like Bluestone keeps calling you 5 times a week, without explaining in detail why they are calling and what they want, but insist you have to give them your PII details for them to get into details, and this is the only thing they keep repeating - give us your details. Then that is what I would call harassment. It is not my obligation to establish what they want - it is theirs.

3. Back to they original point - they accepted payment, and acknowledged that they threw it away. Legally, the ownership of the car could not have transferred without the finance on the car being complete. I no longer possess the car. The finance was on the car, which is no longer mine.

Did you receive any correspondance or confirmation (aside from the phonecall about them throwing away the cheque) from either company that your debt has been settled and paid?

4. Yes, the garage may have come out on top, but that's secondary to the question. Bluestone and their collection company is trying to bypass the original problem, and thus trying to make a case where the finance of the care was never settled, and as such forcing the garage into a state of breach of law.


Anyway, that's just to clarify a few points.

cheers,
/c.

Point 2 - Did you not receive any letters from them prior to or subsequent to the calls? Generally a collection company will send letters to all customers explaining that they have purchased from the originating lender. If not and you received 5 phonecalls a week then yes this is definitely breaching regulations. A collection company is not allowed call you that many times in a week and Im surprised a company such as Bluestone would breach regulations this badly.



Point 3 - Did you receive any correspondance or confirmation (aside from the phonecall about them throwing away the cheque) from either company that your debt has been settled and paid?.


Was your loan a secured loan?

I would definitely put pressure on them to get on to the garage if you cant and get the cheque re-issued. A big point though when dealing with collection companies, cooperation is the key. If you ignore them they will hound you and escalate (as they did with the solicitor calling you) and even though you feel hard done by the debt is yours.

Cr0z

dudara wrote: »

Until the cheque or payment clears, any company will not consider the balance fully cleared. This is the concept of "receipt at risk". So technically, the debt still stands.

In this case, if the cheque had not been cashed/cleared, for whatever reason, they should have contacted the issuer and asked for it to be re-issued. It's not uncommon for this to happen and the way of dealing with it is pretty standard. They messed that up, but it's left you in a spot.

If I were you, I'd apply pressure to them, reminding them that they failed to cash the cheque, and they subsequently failed to follow up to get it reissued. You engaged in good faith and it's now 4 years later.

Thank dudara. In a similar fashion to AlanG's comment, I intend to go back to Bluestone and lay down the mess they created, and of course, state the obvious (thank AlanG) - the finance was on the car, it wasn't a personal loan.

So there's an angle here to put pressure.

Thanks,
/c.

Cr0z

meme74 wrote: »

Point 2 - Did you not receive any letters from them prior to or subsequent to the calls? Generally a collection company will send letters to all customers explaining that they have purchased from the originating lender. If not and you received 5 phonecalls a week then yes this is definitely breaching regulations. A collection company is not allowed call you that many times in a week and Im surprised a company such as Bluestone would breach regulations this badly.



Point 3 - Did you receive any correspondance or confirmation (aside from the phonecall about them throwing away the cheque) from either company that your debt has been settled and paid?.


Was your loan a secured loan?

1. I received no correspondence before or after the calls 4 years later.

2. Apart from the phone call 4 years later, I received no confirmation. Sloppy of me not pursuing a confirmation (I'm a busy person, etc, etc), but to me the business was settled, as the garage legally could not take ownership of the car if matters weren't settled.

3. The loan was not secured. It was not a personal loan. It was finance on the car - hence, it can legally not change ownership, until the car finance has been paid in full.

Cheers,
/c.

maximoose

Cr0z wrote: »

3. The loan was not secured. It was not a personal loan. It was finance on the car - hence, it can legally not change ownership, until the car finance has been paid in full.

Cheers,
/c.

If it was finance rather than a personal loan, the car is the security. Have you done an HPI check on the vehicle to see if it was removed by Certus?

Cr0z

maximoose wrote: »

If it was finance rather than a personal loan, the car is the security. Have you done an HPI check on the vehicle to see if it was removed by Certus?

I've done a car check with motorcheck.ie that states that the first owner after me, the garage, had the car for 6 months, and it's with one and the same owner after that, with tax and insurance paid.

The report doesn't say who the owners were/are due to data privacy laws.

And it doesn't mention finance. And I don't know if that means that there may or may not have been finance on the car but there's nothing there anymore.

Other than that, I'm not sure where I could do such a lookup.

Cheers,
/c.

lawred2

Cr0z wrote: »

Thanks for your reply.

What you're saying sounds like traders and lenders have options to receive payment, not touch it for any arbitrary amount of time, and then go back and claim payment was never done.

That would suggest they can also claim interest on payment received but not cashed in.

Is that really correct?

I would've thought that when payment is acknowledged, it has indeed materialised, whether you cash it in or not. If that's not the case, the room for unethical and shady business behaviour would be wide open.

How would that work exactly?

A cheque is worth nothing until cashed... That money was still sitting in the dealer's account.

Cr0z

maximoose wrote: »

If it was finance rather than a personal loan, the car is the security. Have you done an HPI check on the vehicle to see if it was removed by Certus?

I just went ahead and did a Finance check specifically, and as expected really - the car does not have finance outstanding.

I suppose this would strengthen my case, or?

meme74

Cr0z wrote: »

I just went ahead and did a Finance check specifically, and as expected really - the car does not have finance outstanding.

I suppose this would strengthen my case, or?

If the loan was not secured then the car is almost irrelevant, the debt is yours

If the car was on finance i.e. Lease/hp then yes the fact that the records show no outstanding debt could help your case

MarkR

Did you realize the cheque wasn't cashed?

Cr0z

MarkR wrote: »

Did you realize the cheque wasn't cashed?

It wasn't a cheque in my name, it was from the garage, so no.

Thanks,
/c.

Cr0z

meme74 wrote: »

If the loan was not secured then the car is almost irrelevant, the debt is yours

If the car was on finance i.e. Lease/hp then yes the fact that the records show no outstanding debt could help your case

The car was on finance, and as per the original papers the property of RBS until paid in full - hence, I could not legally sell it until the final payment was settled.

Cr0z

Having looked a bit further into this, I've concluded that:

a) If the car was still on finance, then the car would belong to the creditor, and not the current "owner".

b) If the above was the case, then (according to citizen's information) the liability to settle any outstanding amount would rest with the current owner.

c) Having done a Vehicle Finance Check on the car (today), I can see that the car is no longer on finance.

d) If the car is no longer on finance, then that can only mean that the outstanding amount from 4.5 years ago was acknowledged and materialised at that time - as the car otherwise still would be on finance and the property of the creditor.

e) The creditor obviously messed up, and four years on somehow expects me to clean up their mess.

f) Their best and only option at this stage is to go back to the garage and ask for the cheque that wasn't paid.

g) I have no part in this, and can pursue possible legal actions if they would choose to continue to bug me about this - as the car is not on finance, and it's now the property of a third party, which could not have happened if I had outstanding debt on the car.

At least that's what my enquiries today tells me.

I also called Bluestone, and it turns out that another company, Calbot Financial, now holds the book (the circus, just saying).

I called Calbot and advised them that their only option is to try to get in touch with the garage, since I have as per above 7 points, no part in this.

We'll see what gives.

Thanks all for your comments and thought. I really appreciate it.

Cheers,
/c.

BuffyBot

For clarity's sake, you probably mean Bank of Scotland, not RBS. Two entirely different organisations, one of whom (RBS) is still fully in business in this country under the guise of Ulster Bank.

Cr0z

BuffyBot wrote: »

For clarity's sake, you probably mean Bank of Scotland, not RBS. Two entirely different organisations, one of whom (RBS) is still fully in business in this country under the guise of Ulster Bank.

Ah yes, of course, Bank of Scotland.

Thanks,
/c.