Responsibility of white goods maintenance

dogbert27

Hi,

moved in to a house August 2015 with a built in coffee machine. When we moved in the coffee machine had no Britta filter installed so we used the machine away as it was.

Last November it stopped working. Contacted landlord and they said to organise with the manufacturer to have it collected and repaired. Apparently the area has very hard water and a build up of limescale caused a control valve and heater to fail.

Sent them the bill to the landlord and they paid for it. The recommendation from the manufacturer was to use and replace Britta filter. I did this when I received the machine in December and again in March.

In June just before it was due another filter change it failed again. The exact same issue. Except now the manufacturer is saying that I should have also been descaling the machine on a regular basis with their descaling tablets.

Because of this the landlord wants me to pay for this repair as even though he admits that I maintained the machine as we believed I was supposed to by replacing the filters the problem wouldn't have happened if I was descaling!

I intend to respond saying that as agreed I maintained the machine with filter replacements and as the descaling is new information I cannot be held responsible for negligence and liable to pay the bill.

Also as this seems to be a recurring problem due the nature of the hard water in the area there is no guarantee that the filter and descaling will prevent this in future leaving me no choice but to stop using the machine.

Do you think I'm correct?

intheclouds

I wouldnt consider a coffee machine to be "white goods" and it certainly does not fall under the minimum standards for renting.

If you want a coffee machine can you not buy your own one and look after it yourself?

SB_Part2

Yeh this is not part of the minimum requirements. I'm surprised the landlord even left it there.

If you're using it it's up to you to pay for the repairs.

dogbert27

intheclouds wrote: »

I wouldnt consider a coffee machine to be "white goods" and it certainly does not fall under the minimum standards for renting.

If you want a coffee machine can you not buy your own one and look after it yourself?

The kitchen came with a built in coffee machine. It was an element of the house that the landlord used to determine the rent I pay.

If I'm going to be held responsible for repairs on an expensive coffee machine that will have a recurring problem due to being in a hard water area then I will be buying my own coffee machine or a kettle.

McGrath5

To me a coffee machine is not a white good.

If your landlord is supplying this type of equipment it sounds like he/she is going well above the call of duty ie they are worth keeping onside.

I would suggest you either repair the coffee machine yourself OP or make do without it.

intheclouds

dogbert27 wrote: »

The kitchen came with a built in coffee machine. It was an element of the house that the landlord used to determine the rent I pay.

If I'm going to be held responsible for repairs on an expensive coffee machine that will have a recurring problem due to being in a hard water area then I will be buying my own coffee machine or a kettle.

Your landlord used a coffee machine to determine your level of rent!?!? Are you serious?

I suggest you buy a kettle! LIDL do them every so often pretty cheap.

The Diddakoi

Just googled "built in coffee machine"....
Wow. Never heard of one before.
I would say if you want to carry on using it you will just have to do the descaling and replace the filters. That or try to get the Landlord to fit a limescale/ hard water treatment system to the mains water supply.

Or buy a portable coffee machine for your own use.

dogbert27

McGrath5 wrote: »

To me a coffee machine is not a white good.

If your landlord is supplying this type of equipment it sounds like he/she is going well above the call of duty ie they are worth keeping onside.

I would suggest you either repair the coffee machine yourself OP or make do without it.

I'm paying 3,200 euro a month on rent. To what degree do I need to keep my landlord onside??

Paulw

If the water is that hard, a coffee machine will be the least of the worries - washing machine, dish washer, central heating, immersion, etc will all be damaged from this hard water.

With the coffee machine, how much is the cost of repair? Hundreds of Euro?

Seems like a coffee machine issue is small. It's well above basic requirements. I doubt not using it would be the end of your world.

dogbert27

Paulw wrote: »

If the water is that hard, a coffee machine will be the least of the worries - washing machine, dish washer, central heating, immersion, etc will all be damaged from this hard water.

With the coffee machine, how much is the cost of repair? Hundreds of Euro?

Seems like a coffee machine issue is small. It's well above basic requirements. I doubt not using it would be the end of your world.

The repair is 300 euro.

The highlighted part is my concern. If they're pinning the coffee machine repair on me what else will they try to claim due to the hard water.

Alun

As an aside, most automatic bean to cup espresso type coffee machines will have a setting on them where you set the water hardness level, and it should then remind you to descale it at regular intervals depending on what setting you choose. I'd wager nobody ever bothered to set this up properly when it was installed.

intheclouds

dogbert27 wrote: »

The repair is 300 euro.

The highlighted part is my concern. If they're pinning the coffee machine repair on me what else will they try to claim due to the hard water.

Well they cant pin the repairs of any minimum standards stuff on you.

The landlord is responsible for repairs of anything listed in this:
http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,33422,en.pdf

dogbert27

Alun wrote: »

As an aside, most automatic bean to cup espresso type coffee machines will have a setting on them where you set the water hardness level, and it should then remind you to descale it at regular intervals depending on what setting you choose. I'd wager nobody ever bothered to set this up properly when it was installed.

The landlord didn't know about this but apparently I was supposed to.

As I've said I have no problem not using the machine any further but I was told how to maintain it last December and I did what I was told by the landlord only for in June to be told I should have been doing more that hey nor I knew about.

bobbyss

dogbert27 wrote: »

Hi,

moved in to a house August 2015 with a built in coffee machine. When we moved in the coffee machine had no Britta filter installed so we used the machine away as it was.

Last November it stopped working. Contacted landlord and they said to organise with the manufacturer to have it collected and repaired. Apparently the area has very hard water and a build up of limescale caused a control valve and heater to fail.

Sent them the bill to the landlord and they paid for it. The recommendation from the manufacturer was to use and replace Britta filter. I did this when I received the machine in December and again in March.

In June just before it was due another filter change it failed again. The exact same issue. Except now the manufacturer is saying that I should have also been descaling the machine on a regular basis with their descaling tablets.

Because of this the landlord wants me to pay for this repair as even though he admits that I maintained the machine as we believed I was supposed to by replacing the filters the problem wouldn't have happened if I was descaling!

I intend to respond saying that as agreed I maintained the machine with filter replacements and as the descaling is new information I cannot be held responsible for negligence and liable to pay the bill.

Also as this seems to be a recurring problem due the nature of the hard water in the area there is no guarantee that the filter and descaling will prevent this in future leaving me no choice but to stop using the machine.

Do you think I'm correct?

You could start drinking tea and end all the hassle.

Ms Doubtfire1

check with Tenancy board Law says:

As a landlord, you must:

Register the tenancy with the RTB
Provide your tenant with a rent book or statement of rent paid
Make sure that the property meets certain minimum standards (though the standards for food preparation, storage and laundry purposes do not apply to AHBs)
Repair and maintain the interior of the property to the standard it was in at the start of the tenancy-THIS.If CM was built in it is part of the interior of the house and as such the LL responsibility

SB_Part2

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

check with Tenancy board Law says:

As a landlord, you must:

Register the tenancy with the RTB
Provide your tenant with a rent book or statement of rent paid
Make sure that the property meets certain minimum standards (though the standards for food preparation, storage and laundry purposes do not apply to AHBs)
Repair and maintain the interior of the property to the standard it was in at the start of the tenancy-THIS.If CM was built in it is part of the interior of the house and as such the LL responsibility

I don't take that to mean appliances.

Ms Doubtfire1

SB_Part2 wrote: »

I don't take that to mean appliances.

I do as washing machine and dishwasher also fall under the LL responsibility and they are not even built in. But again, we could debate that til we're blue in the face and not find common ground thats why i advised the OP to get in touch with the Tenancy board to get advise

Ms Doubtfire1

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

........
Repair and maintain the interior of the property to the standard it was in at the start of the tenancy-THIS.If CM was built in it is part of the interior of the house and as such the LL responsibility

So LL should call in, replace filters and descale at manufacturers recommended interval :pac:

Yeah.

intheclouds

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

I do as washing machine and dishwasher also fall under the LL responsibility and they are not even built in. But again, we could debate that til we're blue in the face and not find common ground thats why i advised the OP to get in touch with the Tenancy board to get advise

The OP doesnt need to get in touch with the tenancy board about something so simple.

The landlord is responsible for maintaining the property itself and the things within it that fall under the minimum standards.

A built in coffee machine is very nice, but if its not working then its not the landlords responsibility to fix it.

Ms Doubtfire1

Augeo wrote: »

So LL should call in, replace filters and descale at manufacturers recommended interval :pac:

Yeah.

Nope, but that COULD actually be enforced as per law as ridicolous as it sounds. he is most certainly liable for the repair

Boater123

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

Nope, but that COULD actually be enforced as per law as ridicolous as it sounds. he is most certainly liable for the repair

Unless the damage was caused by the negligent actions of the tenant or the misuse or abuse of the appliance of the tenant, surely. (not saying the OP was negligent or anything)

If a tenant decides to use a metal saucepan in the microwave, that's the LL's responsibility?

Boater123

Augeo wrote: »

So LL should call in, replace filters and descale at manufacturers recommended interval :pac:

Yeah.

I agree.

Perhaps they should come in and add salts and rinse aid to a dishwasher when required?

Replace any blown light bulbs?

Michael D Not Higgins

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

check with Tenancy board Law says:

As a landlord, you must:

Register the tenancy with the RTB
Provide your tenant with a rent book or statement of rent paid
Make sure that the property meets certain minimum standards (though the standards for food preparation, storage and laundry purposes do not apply to AHBs)
Repair and maintain the interior of the property to the standard it was in at the start of the tenancy-THIS.If CM was built in it is part of the interior of the house and as such the LL responsibility

Technically that's correct and technically the landlord isn't refusing to repair it, he's looking for the tenant to cover the cost due to misuse. Now since the manufacturer didn't provide good information on the upkeep after the first repair and the OP did everything as specified I wouldn't expect them to have to pay for the repair.

I suppose the important questions are, was the manual for the machine provided and did it contain the requirement to use descaling tablets in hard water areas? and, are you (OP) willing to part cover the cost? The landlord might be more open to compromise if you offer €100 towards the cost on the condition the landlord gets you the manual so you can follow it's instructions.

Ms Doubtfire1

Boater123 wrote: »

Unless the damage was caused by the negligent actions of the tenant or the misuse or abuse of the appliance of the tenant, surely. (not saying the OP was negligent or anything)

If a tenant decides to use a metal saucepan in the microwave, that's the LL's responsibility?

of course not but that's a complete different issue. And I'd say if LL would want to go down the road of saying tenant broke the machine cause of not descaling etc- if Ll did not leave clear instructions with a rare appliance like a built in coffeemaker he won't stand much chance in a dispute.I would presume descaling and changing the filters on these machines are not straight forward, and for me personally - i wouldn't attempt it..the thing would have turned into a fridge when I'm done - i'd also say that if OP is able to pay 3000 euro rent a month OP will not have a single problem finding somewhere else to live if he wanted. So Op, get on to the tenancy board and LL, tread carefully in this case.

davo10

The coffee machine is a nice touch but not a requirement and I really can't see how it effects the rent. We have one of these built in machines in our kitchen, it looked great in the kitchen showroom but it's a pain in the arse, I've taken it apart myself a few times and ordered new parts on line because after paying for repair the first time it was either I fix it or it was coming out altogether. Op electrical goods need to be maintained in order to work correctly, dish washers/kettles/washers need descalers and I can't see how a LL could be expected to come in to your house regularly to do this, it is really something the tenant has to do, the same as cleaning the inside of your oven or fridge.

I certainly wouldn't as a land lord, pay to have it repaired again, but I probably wouldn't get the tenant to pay for it either. If you want to use it, stump up as really you should have looked into its correct use particularly after causing previous problem by not using a filter.

As others have said, use a kettle or buy your own Nespresso machine but note, they also need to been descalerd now and again.

Incidentally, we don't Iive in a hard water area and apart from a couple of cups in the morning and after dinner, we don't use it a lot but those filters don't last long, never known one to last 3 months.

Boater123

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

check with Tenancy board Law says:

As a landlord, you must:

Register the tenancy with the RTB
Provide your tenant with a rent book or statement of rent paid
Make sure that the property meets certain minimum standards (though the standards for food preparation, storage and laundry purposes do not apply to AHBs)
Repair and maintain the interior of the property to the standard it was in at the start of the tenancy-THIS.If CM was built in it is part of the interior of the house and as such the LL responsibility

Eh, you kind of did say that it is solely the LL's responsibility to repair and maintain these things, ergo never the tenants responsibility.

IMO the OP knew the area had hard water, that hard water damages the machine, and evidently didn't do enough to stop it happening again,(or it wouldn't have happened again). Surely they bare some responsibility?

johnnyskeleton

intheclouds wrote: »

A built in coffee machine is very nice, but if its not working then its not the landlords responsibility to fix it.

What if, as the OP seems to suggest, it was specifically represented by the landlord to be a feature of the property, thus justifying the higher rent?

Suppose a property was advertised with a swiming pool that subsequebtly was damaged through ordinary wear and tear. Can the landlord in that circumstance say that because it is not part of the minimum standards for rental properties its not his job to fix it?

dogbert27

Boater123 wrote: »

Eh, you kind of did say that it is solely the LL's responsibility to repair and maintain these things, ergo never the tenants responsibility.

IMO the OP knew the area had hard water, that hard water damages the machine, and evidently didn't do enough to stop it happening again,(or it wouldn't have happened again). Surely they bare some responsibility?

I didn't know the area had hard water. I'm not in Ireland. I moved to a nordic country with my family.

When I moved in and did the handover with the landlord he showed me the coffee machine but he didn't know all the features, he said the manual was somewhere in the house but it wasn't in English and that I'd figure out how to use the machine.

I took this to mean I'd figure out how to press the start button to make a cup of coffee.

All the messages on the machine are not in English.

As it's my first time in this country and had no knowledge of the area I did not know it was a hard water area.

dogbert27

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Technically that's correct and technically the landlord isn't refusing to repair it, he's looking for the tenant to cover the cost due to misuse. Now since the manufacturer didn't provide good information on the upkeep after the first repair and the OP did everything as specified I wouldn't expect them to have to pay for the repair.

I suppose the important questions are, was the manual for the machine provided and did it contain the requirement to use descaling tablets in hard water areas? and, are you (OP) willing to part cover the cost? The landlord might be more open to compromise if you offer €100 towards the cost on the condition the landlord gets you the manual so you can follow it's instructions.

As said in above post. The manual wasn't specifically provided. I was told it was somewhere in the house and that it wasn't in English.

No instructions were given in August that regular descaling would be required.

Agreement on maintenance in December after the first repair was to replace the filters which I did.

There is also a Quooker installed under the kitchen sink (constant hot water on tap) that they are now expressing concerns with regard to limescale.

My worry on accepting responsibility for the coffee machine due to usage is that they'll pin me for any costs associated with the Quooker due to usage even though it's been installed for a number of years and I'm the third tenant in the house.

aido79

dogbert27 wrote: »

I didn't know the area had hard water. I'm not in Ireland. I moved to a nordic country with my family.

When I moved in and did the handover with the landlord he showed me the coffee machine but he didn't know all the features, he said the manual was somewhere in the house but it wasn't in English and that I'd figure out how to use the machine.

I took this to mean I'd figure out how to press the start button to make a cup of coffee.

All the messages on the machine are not in English.

As it's my first time in this country and had no knowledge of the area I did not know it was a hard water area.

It's very unusual for a manual for a product such as a coffee to not have a manual available on the internet in multiple languages.
Type the name and model number of the product followed by manual and see if it is available. If you can find it and it doesn't have specific instructions on maintenance then it may help your case.

davo10

dogbert27 wrote: »

I didn't know the area had hard water. I'm not in Ireland. I moved to a nordic country with my family.

When I moved in and did the handover with the landlord he showed me the coffee machine but he didn't know all the features, he said the manual was somewhere in the house but it wasn't in English and that I'd figure out how to use the machine.

I took this to mean I'd figure out how to press the start button to make a cup of coffee.

All the messages on the machine are not in English.

As it's my first time in this country and had no knowledge of the area I did not know it was a hard water area.

After it broke the first time, you could have googled the instructions in English. Also, if the instructions are there, I think it is fair to have them in the language of the country you live in.

As a matter of interest, now that you know about the water, are you using limescale tablets in other appliances?

The fact that you live in another country makes it difficult to advise on your rights etc, it really depends on what is required/expected of tenants in that country, it might have been better to include that snippet of info in your opening post.

Boater123

dogbert27 wrote: »

I didn't know the area had hard water..................

As it's my first time in this country and had no knowledge of the area I did not know it was a hard water area.

My point was that you knew it was a hard water area after the CM first broke down.

athtrasna

Mod note
OP it would have been helpful to know your location from the start, people have taken the time to give advice and contributed based on Irish law. You will have to research local laws and landlord obligations in that country. This is an Irish site and unless informed otherwise people will give advice based on Irish laws and regulations.

CruelCoin

dogbert27 wrote: »

If I'm going to be held responsible for repairs on an expensive coffee machine that will have a recurring problem due to being in a hard water area then I will be buying my own coffee machine or a kettle.

To be fair, If you'd been using it properly then it shouldn't have an issue.

The water where i live/work is like liquid rock. A reading of approx 420-450 (well depending)ppm when the scale tops off at 300ppm....

Our coffee machine has been pumping out approx 50 cups a day for the last year with no issues, as we are regular with the decalcing and the filter changes.

Can i ask about the wisdom of not using a filter? If i see a hoover with no bag in it, then would i be right to assume that it would be grand to not use a bag? If the machine is designed to make use of a filter, then that would likely have been the clever thing to do.

intheclouds

dogbert27 wrote: »

I'm not in Ireland. I moved to a nordic country with my family.

Eh - that completely changes things!!

Havent a clue what the landlord is legally obliged to fix and what he isnt.

intheclouds

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

What if, as the OP seems to suggest, it was specifically represented by the landlord to be a feature of the property, thus justifying the higher rent?

Suppose a property was advertised with a swiming pool that subsequebtly was damaged through ordinary wear and tear. Can the landlord in that circumstance say that because it is not part of the minimum standards for rental properties its not his job to fix it?

I cant imagine a coffee machine justifying higher rent - mind you I dont drink coffee myself.

But on the swimming pool - its hard to imagine an apartment in Ireland with a private swimming pool, there may be an apartment block with a shared pool but Id imagine the management company are charged with taking care of that.

If I rented a house with a swimming pool, in Ireland, the landlord would still only be legally obliged to keep up with the minimum standards imo. Im sure we dont have enough rentals with swimming pools in Ireland for it to have been specifically legislated for - maybe in countries where a pool is the norm the landlords are charged with the responsibility for it - but I doubt they would be in Ireland. Im imagining an indoor type pool like in Cocoon. Maybe if it was outdoor itd be considered part of the grounds and thus be the landlords responsibility? I dont know really.

dogbert27

Apologies, I did not mean to mislead with not informing which country I am in.

Because I'm Irish and a user of boards I just wanted an opinion on the matter in terms of following an agreed maintenance of the machine with the landlord and that being acknowledged by the landlord but still being faulted for the breakdown.

I have agreed to split the bill with the landlord with the agreement of continuing to replace the filters and start descaling if I choose to continue to use the machine.

Thanks to everyone who offered helpful advice.