Starting ECCE, toilet training issues

MistyCheese

Our daughter is due to start her ECCE year soon. Very soon. But we've hit a major snag. She has been having accidents recently and the school has declared they won't take her in the playschool room. So this means we have to pay childcare fees in order for her to do her ECCE.

This is a massive blow for us financially. So much so that we are considering not sending her at all and waiting for next year to send her.

Are there any repercussions if we do this? I mean do children have to start ECCE at three or can we wait until she's four? Or is there any reasonable chance we might find a school that would take her despite a few accidents?

Ideally we would prefer to send her this year, the socialisation and structure would be great for her. So we might end up having to try to get the money together. Has anybody else experienced this? Their child not being 100% toilet trained and due to start school. Could there be another option we haven't considered?

Chocolate fiend

Of course you don't have to send her at 3. It's optional. Most people on boards have never heard of a child who hasn't gone, but, in real life plenty of children don't go at all. Going at 4 would do her no harm at all.

What sort of accidents is she having? is it every day? How do they know about the accidents? Lots of children have accidents, but, if they are all the time they aren't really accidents it is just the case that the child is not trained iykwim?

Could you send her half way through the year when the toilet training issues are sorted?

MistyCheese

Hi Chocolate Fiend, thanks for your reply. She doesn't have a lot of accidents, she hasn't had one at home in a few weeks. At school she does have the odd one. Not every day. But three weeks ago she was having a few at school. She'd have a dry day, maybe two, then the next she might have two or three accidents.

I've asked if they could take her later in the year and they said someone would have to drop out mid year for them to have a space available. So it's possible but certainly not guaranteed.

rainemac

MistyCheese wrote: »

Hi Chocolate Fiend, thanks for your reply. She doesn't have a lot of accidents, she hasn't had one at home in a few weeks. At school she does have the odd one. Not every day. But three weeks ago she was having a few at school. She'd have a dry day, maybe two, then the next she might have two or three accidents.

I've asked if they could take her later in the year and they said someone would have to drop out mid year for them to have a space available. So it's possible but certainly not guaranteed.

Do you think that the accidents are related to the room in creche she is currently in, if the accidents are only happening there? Perhaps there's certain incidents such as a fight with another child (even something subtle that the childcare workers are not picking up on) that is sparking the accidents? which would indicate not being emotionally ready and certainly an indication that she would benefit from playschool before school to develop the social interaction. She can certainly use the ecce if she is within the age range next year which you will find on the dcya.ie website. I don't think you should rush it, that maybe she will benefit more waiting to go to school a year later, but it's a bit disappointing that the playschool won't take her with infrequent accidents. Another child they ddnt know could be started before they know that the child has accidents, would they exclude them after they've sent the forms in??

MistyCheese

Yes, it was looking like she was almost only having accidents at school but of course then today then she had two in the house! Don't know why it's taking her so long to 'crack' it, a lot of times she'll ask to be taken to the bathroom. But she's not far enough along to get the 3 hours x 5 days of free ECCE. Don't know what else we can do, we're trying very much with the toilet training and a lot of the time she gets it, just not all the time.

HelgaWard

Maybe take her to the GP just to make sure she doesn't have a urinary tract infection or some other medical condition that could be causing the issue.

elaney

My child started today she will be 4 in a few weeks time. I didn't bother sending her last year as she had the same issues with potty training as yours. She wasn't fully trained till three and a half. My son did two years of playschool and was very bored in the second year he didnt want go much the second year.

MistyCheese

I do think that's worth doing Helga, thank you. I will arrange that.

Thank you for sharing your experience elaney, I didn't consider that, that she might get bored doing two years.

soc

It's perfectly normal for a child of that age not to be potty trained, and I really don't get why some preschools push for them to be fully potty trained. The PHN told me it's completely normal for a child not to be potty trained until starting Junior Infants! Just send her to preschool in pull-ups. She's only in them for 3 hrs in ECCE scheme, so if they get wet it's not the end of the world, and you can change her when you collect. If she has a poo, tell the creche to give you a buzz and you'll come change her. She's perfectly entitled to her free ECCE year, and I think it's RIDICULOUS that creches put so much pressure on children (and parents) to be potty trained.

BTW preschool I send my children to are very understanding. I had twin boys in last year for PS and they weren't at all interested in potty training. They turned 4 in January 2016, and were still not potty trained, and wearing pull-ups to Pre-school. The preschool would change them ONLY if they poo'd but that was VERY rare for that to happen at preschool. Twins just started Junior Infants and potty trained during the Summer... big difference being that THEY were ready to potty train, not me making them. And it was a breeze in comparison to other attempts. My 3 year old just started PS, and she's going to school in underpants, as she was interested to potty train over the summer (seeing her brothers doing it).

Moonbeam

It really depends on whether the pre-school has nappy changing facilities in the room.
All of mine did 2 years in play school and they loved it,there was very little over lap.
They were in a play school room 1st then they went to Naíonra or Montessori and they loved it,my last child just started play school yesterday.
She is potty trained but as she is in the playschool room for younger children,there are nappy changing facilities but she is too young for the ECCE scheme so I pay for it.

I am looking for the official guidelines for you but can not currently find them.

livinsane

We had our son enrolled for a two day place in the local Naionra to begin this month. He will turn 3 in Oct and is eligible for his free place in January. He's not ready at all for toilet training, gave it a try but knew it wasn't time. I was really hoping they would relax the toilet policy as the introduction of the second free year will naturally encourage parents to send their children to preschool at a younger age, and the fact that he is only attending for two 3 hour sessions. Well they have no changing facilities and don't allow pull ups and also expect the child to be able to clean themselves. We withdrew his place and will send him next year. No way am I pushing toilet training just to get the place. Im prepared to wait until he actually asks to use the toilet himself, maybe I'll start coercing him once we get to 3.5 or thereabouts. It would have been perfect though, Im on Mat Leave from Oct and would have been able to drop and collect each day and get a sleep in with new baby while he was attending!

rainemac

Won't allow pull-ups and able to wipe themselves??!! For wees fine but poos, that is just unfair on the child and the staff will have to step in and help at sine point when they have s*** all over their hands/toilet. I can't believe the problems the second year is introducing for children. What happened to the second year being put in place FOR THE CHILD.

uck51js9zml2yt

Mine is 2 3/4 and in Montessori. We wouldn't have been guaranteed a place in January when he is 3 so decided to go ahead and see how he got on.
Hes been fine so far this week but the school is working with him and bring him to the toilet regularly in the morning.
He's not taking yet so just points below when he wants to go.
We have a change of clothes in his bag as do all the parents in case of accidents.
if you want her to go this year find another school willing to work with your daughter. Starting next year won't do her any harm either.

soc

rainemac wrote: »

Won't allow pull-ups and able to wipe themselves??!! For wees fine but poos, that is just unfair on the child and the staff will have to step in and help at sine point when they have s*** all over their hands/toilet. I can't believe the problems the second year is introducing for children. What happened to the second year being put in place FOR THE CHILD.

Precisely! The purpose of the extra year was to offset creche fees for parents...instead some "preschools" are taking the piss (no pun intended) with it, and expecting 3 year olds to suddenly act like school age children!.

MistyCheese

soc, I agree, I can't see the harm in sending her in a fresh nappy for three short hours. Once home I could exchange nappy for big girl pants. Surely that wouldn't do too much damage to her toilet training? Moonbeam, they said they can't take her in the playschool room because of staff ratios. She has to stay in the room where there's more staff so if she has an accident, there are enough staff that one can leave the room to go and change her. So on the one hand I think 'fair enough' but then on the other I'm thinking that it's only three hours, we could find a different solution. I could send her in a fresh nappy and change her straightaway after school.

livinsane, that does sound a bit much, like rainemac said, expecting a three year old to be fully responsible for cleaning themselves. I hear you about the timing, that would've worked great for you. How annoying that they couldn't help.

tatranska, that's great to hear of them being open to working with you and your child. That hopefully shows a good standard of care in general. Which is definitely what you want when you're paying someone to take care of your child

whatdoicare

It's so weird that it's so different across the board - I was worried about this issue too as, even though my little one is potty trained, sometimes if she's busy playing she'll accidently on purpose have an accident.

I spoke to the new teacher yesterday about it and she had no problems with it at all - she even pointed to another student who is still in pull ups and she said, we just ask him to go every 20 mins or so. No big deal. She said if the accidents become regular to just throw on a pull up and there's no issue there with them.

It's far too much to expect any 3 three year old to clean themselves after toilet - I'd be very reluctant to send a child to a place that doesn't seem to understand children and their limitations - surely that's a hygene issue there??

Neyite

It seems to be just down to the crèche - I cant remember our crèche having any rules on needing to be potty trained for ECCE, thought my lad was a few months trained by that point, but he was still in the same room with the same ratios so they dealt with any accidents the usual way.

It defeats the purpose of 2 years before school then. If they are going in to year 1 at 3.5, its pretty much a given that many are still toilet training or might have occasional accidents even if they are trained because they are absorbed in the activities.

Could you try another play school that doesn't have that rule? I dare say if she's mostly there with her potty training she'll be fully dry by Halloween anyway, it seems crap to miss out on a full year for what might be a handful of accidents.

MistyCheese

Success :-) we have found her another school! They will take her for three hours, five days a week. I was worried that it'd be very difficult to find her a place with next to no notice but no, all sorted with one phoncecall.

So thank you everyone for sharing your experiences, your replies spurred me on to at least try to find her somewhere else.

nala2012

Just to let people know the reason why children need to be fully toilet trained and able to wipe themselves is that the ratio is 1 adult to 11 children! Where I work there are two of us in the room and 22 children so you can't leave one staff member with 21 children while you attend to a child in the bathroom.

unichick

I'm lucky with our crèche. They don't have to be potty trained when starting playschool and are very relaxed about it. DD is potty trained but has had accidents in her toddler room before moving to playschool. She's only 2 years 8 months. But I know others kids who aren't trained and there's no bother about looking after them. We live in the country so that may be why.

mohawk

nala2012 wrote: »

Just to let people know the reason why children need to be fully toilet trained and able to wipe themselves is that the ratio is 1 adult to 11 children! Where I work there are two of us in the room and 22 children so you can't leave one staff member with 21 children while you attend to a child in the bathroom.

That's is very reasonable, but many 3 / 3.5 yr olds have the odd accident and preschools should perhaps be in a position to look after them.

I wonder if this is an issue affecting smaller crèches more? Place where I sent my son the girl in the office used to help out in the room if one of the kids needed help in bathroom.

Shybride2016

soc wrote: »

Precisely! The purpose of the extra year was to offset creche fees for parents...instead some "preschools" are taking the piss (no pun intended) with it, and expecting 3 year olds to suddenly act like school age children!.

My eldest went to preschool a few years ago before the ECCE scheme came into being and the rules re training were the same so it's not a new rule they've brought in.

As a previous poster mentioned, it's a preschool, not childcare facility. The teacher/child ratio is much higher and the preschools don't have nappy changing facilities nor the staff to change the kids.

The ECCE scheme was to ensure that all children got access to preschool before Primary school and has been dressed up as a subsidy for parents towards creche fees to replace the previous Early Childhood quarterly payment which was abolished a few years ago.

LegacyUser

The ratio in ECCE preschool is 1:11, apart from the fact the room would not have changing facilities, if a child has an accident one staff member is taken away from the room leaving the other staff member in charge of 21 children. Depending on the accident this can take anything from 15/20 mins. In our school if a child is only recently trained & having the odd accident we work with the parent to help the child. Schools don't want to refuse children who are not fully toilet trained but most are not in position to do otherwise. ECCE payment is €4.30 an hour per child !! Putting huge financial strain on most schools. There is Not enough money to pay for extra staff.