Horse abuse city centre?

lovelife92

I was out in the city centre for dinner last night. I was appauled by the way these people use horse and traps to make money. These horses are being lugged around all day in the middle of traffic. They should be in a field.

I was in temple bar and 4 hours later at about 10 pm when the music was blaring, they had the horses on the cobblestones waiting outside a very roudy, loud pub. It saddened and breaks my heart to think this is allowed.

I have seen horses in Dublin used all day for this purpose. I have no idea where they rest. It is a disgrace as a Dubliner. As far as I am concerned this has to be animal abuse?

Would you agree? What can I do about this?

fits

No I dont agree largely. Horses are well able to do a bit of work. They are also well able for a lot of standing around and waiting (which you would notice if you observed them in a field). As long as their needs are met, in terms of food, footcare, etc I dont see anything wrong with it.

Lady Haywire

I don't think they're abused at all, if you talk to any of the owners you'll see just how much respect they have for their animals. The last guy I was talking to had two horses and swapped them in and out so they're not always on the street. If you see them waiting for passengers at Stephens Green they often have nosebags on and are just calmly munching away, they're used to the traffic and noise.

They should be in a field, lol. What was used for transport in the towns and cities before cars came along.

lovelife92

Its people like you that keep barbaric traditions alive. Back then there was no traffic. Horses are terrified or loud noises. Pure ignorance

Lady Haywire

lovelife92 wrote: »

Its people like you that keep barbaric traditions alive. Back then there was no traffic. Horses are terrified or loud noises. Pure ignorance

How is that ignorance? I've owned horses myself and every horse is different, the guys are obviously using very laid back horses who are not easily spooked. All you have to do is talk to the owners instead of judging them appearances. Should we get rid of the mounted Garda unit too? Because they are subjected to far worse noise and clashes.

And yes there was traffic then, not as much traffic but certainly as much noise on the streets. Plus steam trains were far more common as transport and horses were expected to get used to the noise. In fact many horses were sent off to fields next to a railway line so they would learn to not get spooked at the station.

lovelife92

Google NYC inhumane horse.read the second result. Then come back and tell me you agree with your post above.

Lady Haywire

lovelife92 wrote: »

Google NYC inhumane horse.read the second result. Then come back and tell me you agree with your post above.

That's New York, not Dublin. Teeny weeny difference in the size of the cities there.
You have your opinion, I have mine. Do you have much experience of horses to comment on their welfare? Because every time I see them they all look damn healthy to me, coats are shiny and they look well fed, believe me they have a lot better lives than some of the pets out on common land or the scrawny half starved ones left to fend for themselves on waste ground.

tk123

Horses being ridden by kids around housing estates or my favourite left to roam in the roads I drive through to get to work is cruel. But I don't know how any Dubliner can think a working horse in Dublin City is cruel when they were the bread and butter for some families years ago?! My Great Grandad was a coal merchant and everyone on my Mum's side has a story to tell about the horse. My Nana would have tears in her eyes telling us about the day her brothers came home in floods of tears when the horse died.

They're very well cared for and well used to the hustle and bustle of the city. I'd imagine they have an easier life now carrying a few tourists around compared to hauling cargo around like years ago?

loveisdivine

Personally, I don't agree with it. I'm not comfortable with using animals for human profit, mainly because whenever animals and money/profit mix it's often the animal that comes out worst.

However, on the animal abuse scale I would say this is pretty low. In Dublin that is, it's a different story in New York.

I'm also much more concerned about the horses/ponies being abused and neglected in housing estates and abandoned around the country.

cocker5

I'm going to have to say as someone who works just off st Stephens green and see these horses each day... they are not looked after really well.. Standing in the sun all day everyday not a bucket of water in sight.. Many of them their coats are balding in places..some are under nourished ...they may a source of income for these people but IMO are not prized animals.. From seeing most of the owners I know why.

cactusgal

cocker5 wrote: »

I'm going to have to say as someone who works just off st Stephens green and see these horses each day... they are not looked after really well.. Standing in the sun all day everyday not a bucket of water in sight.. Many of them their coats are balding in places..some are under nourished ...they may a source of income for these people but IMO are not prized animals.. From seeing most of the owners I know why.

I agree. When you see the ones getting dragged around Stoneybatter, they're even worse. They look undernourished and poorly taken care of.

Latatian

I've only seen one skinny horse in Dublin. I see more skinny horses standing around in fields, neglected, not having enough to do. Many horses actually like having a bit of work- not all, much like us really.

If the horses in Dublin were really scared of the loud noises you would see that. A frightened horse is easy to spot, and dangerous in traffic, so it would be against the owner's interests to use them if they were scared. But they usually look very calm. I've yet to see sores from ill-fitting harnesses or thin coats or long feet or anything like that. The ones I've seen in Dublin city centre look fat, shiny, adequately muscled, and calm enough.

frillyleaf

Are you are referring to the horses that are in temple bar, Stephens green or Guinness' with the carts that carry members of the public ?

If so I believe these horses are well looked after. These horses seem to be large enough to pull weight and they visibly appear to be healthy in terms of their coat, weight, feet etc..They appear to be well groomed and they are not underweight. The horses I have interacted with do not seem to be nervous as they are used to the city. I would also assume due to their appearance that they are also kept in stables and are fed required food...eg.More than just grass as is the case with many neglected horses across Dublin.

I've been in one of these stables in the city and was amazed at how well these stables were kept, cleanliness, space etc. ( this is just one Ive seen and been in ). These horses are these men's livelihood so I imagine they are looked after well.

Imo the Horses that are being bought and sold on a whim and tied up in housing estates / waste land with no access to food, veterinary care or shelter are the the horses that are being severely abused and being taken care by animal shelters.

I've never heard an animal shelter voice concerns for the horses you are referring to however there continually express frustration over government policies allowing horses to be kept on wasteland etc.

frillyleaf

cocker5 wrote: »

I'm going to have to say as someone who works just off st Stephens green and see these horses each day... they are not looked after really well.. Standing in the sun all day everyday not a bucket of water in sight.. Many of them their coats are balding in places..some are under nourished ...they may a source of income for these people but IMO are not prized animals.. From seeing most of the owners I know why.

I'm very surprised to read this. I've never seen any of these horses in poor condition. Actually I'm always amazed how well they look....I can't comment on the water as I don't see them day in and out but could it be the case that they are given water regularly but maybe not at specifically at Stephens green as this may not be adequate or practical?

I would guess that a horse, similar to any animal, that is dehydrated or overheating is unable to function well so could it be likely they are given water out of your view? Have you ever spoke to the men who own them to ask?

dhaughton99

I can see where this tread is coming from. I was beside one of these traps today near Christchurch with four on board and a driver. At the red light, the horse moves out straight into the on-coming traffic while the driver was on the phone. A golf had to swerve to avoid hitting it. This is certainly not the first time I've seen this kind of thing. Around the hop store/ James st, they are just suicidal and ride straight out into traffic and expect the motorist to brake in time.

tk123

dhaughton99 wrote: »

I can see where this tread is coming from. I was beside one of these traps today near Christchurch with four on board and a driver. At the red light, the horse moves out straight into the on-coming traffic while the driver was on the phone. A golf had to swerve to avoid hitting it. This is certainly not the first time I've seen this kind of thing. Around the hop store/ James st, they are just suicidal and ride straight out into traffic and expect the motorist to brake in time.

Horses have the right of way in traffic...it's a crappy old rule that needs to be removed imo and it's often abused and cars take risks trying to overtake them.. I often get stuck in a line of traffic held up by horses and traps near where I work when the locals are going for a spin :rolleyes:

OldNotWIse

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/CAMPAIGNS/other/ALL/444/

An interesting read and a different view.

I think it's sad to see them lugging tourists around tbh. You have legs, use them.

the beer revolu

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I think it's sad to see them lugging tourists around tbh. You have legs, use them.

Are taxis, busses and trams a bad thing too??

fits

tk123 wrote: »

Horses have the right of way in traffic...it's a crappy old rule that needs to be removed imo and it's often abused and cars take risks trying to overtake them..

It would not be safe to remove that rule. Sometimes the owner might lose control momentarily, and drivers of mechanical vehicles can react accordingly.

Musketeer4

lovelife92 wrote: »

Its people like you that keep barbaric traditions alive. Back then there was no traffic. Horses are terrified or loud noises. Pure ignorance

Ah go on will you!

If the horses were terrified they would be flighty, could bolt at any second, and would be EXTREMELY dangerous to the public.

Theses horses are well used to traffic and are calm and relaxed.

Are you on the wind up or what?

tk123

fits wrote: »

It would not be safe to remove that rule. Sometimes the owner might lose control momentarily, and drivers of mechanical vehicles can react accordingly.

I'm sure drivers would react either way of there was a horse going nuts in traffic in front of them?! The same way we drive around the horses when they're loose and wandering out in the road..
To be fair the guys around work usually move in and wave us on when it's safe so they're not holding the traffic up.. except the old man who carries a wheelie bin on the back of the cart every week :rolleyes::p

fits

The animals still should have right of way though. Its completely unsafe otherwise.

sillysmiles

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I think it's sad to see them lugging tourists around tbh. You have legs, use them.

I have no experience on the horses in question, but I think without jobs these horses would no longer be kept. And I imagine lugging a few tourists is a lot easier that coal and kegs of previous times.

Animals need to have a function and a value in society (rightly or wrongly). No different imo than if dogs weren't so cheap and common there would be less abuse because they would have a value. Donkeys similar have little or no value or function in modern society and as a result are frequently the victims of abuse or neglect.

So maybe the key thing isn't to say the city isn't the place for horses, but to ensure that they have an appropriate level of work that keep them occupied and a value that means that they are respected and cared for.

Kamili

tk123 wrote: »

I'm sure drivers would react either way of there was a horse going nuts in traffic in front of them?! The same way we drive around the horses when they're loose and wandering out in the road..
To be fair the guys around work usually move in and wave us on when it's safe so they're not holding the traffic up.. except the old man who carries a wheelie bin on the back of the cart every week :rolleyes::p

from having horses on the road spooked by bad drivers, no, no the drivers absolutely do not react, in fact they tend to make it worse by being aggressive and acting more dangerously to pass a horse. That rule should absolutely not be removed. Its there for te safety of all road users.

Ave Sodalis

Kamili wrote:

from having horses on the road spooked by bad drivers, no, no the drivers absolutely do not react, in fact they tend to make it worse by being aggressive and acting more dangerously to pass a horse. That rule should absolutely not be removed. Its there for te safety of all road users.

Exactly! The rules are made not only for cities but the country side too and have saved me many times.
As for the OP, I don't know about them horses in questions but if your only defense is that they should be in a field, then it's people like you that make it difficult to help real abuse cases. Did you know that both the Army Equitation School (one of the top producers of horses in the world), and the mounted unit are both based in the city?

Priscilla Marie

I agree totally!

Near where I work there is a very small shed squashed between some houses, id say the poor horse doesn't have room to even turn around. The men use these horses for the horse and trap ride around the city. I feel so sorry for the poor thing

Ave Sodalis

Priscilla Marie wrote:

Near where I work there is a very small shed squashed between some houses, id say the poor horse doesn't have room to even turn around. The men use these horses for the horse and trap ride around the city. I feel so sorry for the poor thing

I think your case (and that makes my blood boil) and the OP are two different scenarios. I've only seen the horses of Temple Bar once and they looked grand. I've seen horses belonging to a certain community in traps plenty of times (I lived in Limerick) and it's completely different.

loveisdivine

I can't link cos I'm on mobile but f you check out My Lovely Horse on Facebook you'll see details of a tourist carriage horse being seized by the guards last night because they'd had so many complaints from rescues and members of the public about its emaciated condition.

Obviously it's only 1 case and it's being dealt with. But it shows abuse and neglect do exist within this trade. I wonder what reprecussions the owner will face.

dhaughton99

Do these lot need insurance? I cycle through the city everyday and always shocked how they disregard traffic laws inc the use of mobile phones.

blackdog2

tk123 wrote: »

Horses being ridden by kids around housing estates or my favourite left to roam in the roads I drive through to get to work is cruel. But I don't know how any Dubliner can think a working horse in Dublin City is cruel when they were the bread and butter for some families years ago?! My Great Grandad was a coal merchant and everyone on my Mum's side has a story to tell about the horse. My Nana would have tears in her eyes telling us about the day her brothers came home in floods of tears when the horse died.

They're very well cared for and well used to the hustle and bustle of the city. I'd imagine they have an easier life now carrying a few tourists around compared to hauling cargo around like years ago?

I am from Dublin. I don't condone how horses were used then. I also don't condone how horses are used now.

tk123

blackdog2 wrote: »

I am from Dublin. I don't condone how horses were used then. I also don't condone how horses are used now.

You don't condone horses - the only transport at the time since nothing else was invented - being used to transport goods/pull trams around the city - good for you. :rolleyes: