Luas/Irish Rail security

Stephen15

Why don't they train them as dog handlers aswell I have seen rail security in other countries with dogs and there wasn't much trouble going on. For example the metro in Rome has dog patrols where the dogs are trained to head but not bite trouble makers. Also tough security guards with German Shepards might act as a visible deterrent to trouble makers. Is it true IE did once have a contracter with dogs I heard they might have somewhere.

foggy_lad

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why don't they train them as dog handlers aswell I have seen rail security in other countries with dogs and there wasn't much trouble going on. For example the metro in Rome has dog patrols where the dogs are trained to head but not bite trouble makers. Also tough security guards with German Shepards might act as a visible deterrent to trouble makers. Is it true IE did once have a contracter with dogs I heard they might have somewhere.

Dogs might send the message to normal commuters that the service is dangerous and not worth the risk if even the security personnel need the protection of large dogs.

There would also be insurance implications for the operator having large attack type dogs roaming through trams and along the platforms. What if the dogs bite people?

Carawaystick

The Alsatians couldn't bite people as they'd have to be muzzled as they are a restricted breed.

I missed the problem the OP was trying to solve though

Del2005

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why don't they train them as dog handlers aswell I have seen rail security in other countries with dogs and there wasn't much trouble going on. For example the metro in Rome has dog patrols where the dogs are trained to head but not bite trouble makers. Also tough security guards with German Shepards might act as a visible deterrent to trouble makers. Is it true IE did once have a contracter with dogs I heard they might have somewhere.

Different laws in different countries. Most countries have dedicated transport police or have a local police force cover transport issues. In Ireland we have private security who have no real powers to do anything bar ask you to leave, unfortunately the people who they have to deal with know the law with regard to the powers of private individuals.

As also said German Shepard's are a restricted bread so have to be muzzled at all times and with our wide open laws a dog used in this manner would be considered a weapon with potentially serious issues for the handler.

GM228

Del2005 wrote: »

Different laws in different countries. Most countries have dedicated transport police or have a local police force cover transport issues. In Ireland we have private security who have no real powers to do anything bar ask you to leave, unfortunately the people who they have to deal with know the law with regard to the powers of private individuals.

They have more powers than you think, LUAS and Irish Rail security can remove you using reasonable force and arrest you.

Private security in general (or anybody for that matter) can also arrest anyone they suspect to be in the act of committing an arrestable offence or suspected to be guilty of an arrestable offence (i.e an arrestable offence = punishable by 5 years+ prison sentence).

Del2005

GM228 wrote: »

They have more powers than you think, LUAS and Irish Rail security can remove you using reasonable force and arrest you.

Private security in general (or anybody for that matter) can also arrest anyone they suspect to be in the act of committing an arrestable offence or suspected to be guilty of an arrestable offence (i.e an arrestable offence = punishable by 5 years+ prison sentence).

And their incestuous solicitor, who has represented them on free legal aid for their double/triple digit convictions, will then sue for overuse of force and make a few grand. What powers they have sound good but in reality they are barely paid above minimum wage and won't risk their lives or lively hood by using force to remove someone who will be back on in 5 minutes, with zero repercussions for them.

ohnonotgmail

GM228 wrote: »

They have more powers than you think, LUAS and Irish Rail security can remove you using reasonable force and arrest you.

Private security in general (or anybody for that matter) can also arrest anyone they suspect to be in the act of committing an arrestable offence or suspected to be guilty of an arrestable offence (i.e an arrestable offence = punishable by 5 years+ prison sentence).

they have no more powers than you or I so I dont how you can say they have have more powers than you think.

Vic_08

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they have no more powers than you or I so I dont how you can say they have have more powers than you think.

In reality they have less powers than a random person on the street because their bosses are sh!t scared of the sort of payouts Irish judges will give to any asshat who sues so the are under orders not to do anything confrontational.

coylemj

Vic_08 wrote: »

In reality they have less powers than a random person on the street because their bosses are sh!t scared of the sort of payouts Irish judges will give to any asshat who sues so the are under orders not to do anything confrontational.

Exactly, they are there as a visible reassurance to law-abiding citizens. All they do is stop trouble from happening for the few minutes they're in your carriage. Even low grade lawbreakers like fare dodgers have little to fear from them since the recent ruling which says that they can do nothing once the person has stepped off the Luas, even if they're still on the platform

Toothless tigers, that's what they are.

GM228

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they have no more powers than you or I so I dont how you can say they have have more powers than you think.

LUAS security staff have those powers under The Transport (Railway Infrastructure) Act 2011 having received authorised officer status earlier this year alongside the revenue staff by TII.

IE security staff under the Transport Act 1950 as they were given authorised officer status by the board of CIE years ago.

Infini

Del2005 wrote: »

Different laws in different countries. Most countries have dedicated transport police or have a local police force cover transport issues. In Ireland we have private security who have no real powers to do anything bar ask you to leave, unfortunately the people who they have to deal with know the law with regard to the powers of private individuals.

As also said German Shepard's are a restricted bread so have to be muzzled at all times and with our wide open laws a dog used in this manner would be considered a weapon with potentially serious issues for the handler.

Its a pity that we cant have proper transport police in this country and expecially with the alsatians or german shepards because those guys would clear out all the junkies and other trash in record time if they were introduced.

Also we could use these

ohnonotgmail

GM228 wrote: »

LUAS security staff have those powers under The Transport (Railway Infrastructure) Act 2011 having received authorised officer status earlier this year alongside the revenue staff by TII.

IE security staff under the Transport Act 1950 as they were given authorised officer status by the board of CIE years ago.

which means what?

GM228

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

which means what?

LUAS powers:-

Section 66B - Transport (Railway Infrastructure) Act 2001

Quote:
Powers of authorised officers.

66B.—(1) If an authorised officer reasonably suspects that a person—

(a) is contravening or has contravened or is failing or has failed to comply with a bye-law made under section 66,

(b) is committing or has committed on a railway an offence under section 64 or 65,

(c) is assaulting or has assaulted or is causing or has caused deliberate harm to another on a railway,

(d) is causing or has caused wanton or deliberate damage to railway infrastructure,

(e) has contravened section 118 or 132 of the Railway Safety Act 2005,

(f) is obstructing or has obstructed or is impeding or has impeded an authorised officer in the exercise of his or her duties under this section, section 66A, 66C, or under any bye-law made under section 66,

(g) on any railway is intoxicated or is committing or has committed an offence under section 15 of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1977 , or

(h) if requested by an authorised officer to cease such contravention or action or to so comply, fails to comply with the request,

he or she may—

(i) using such reasonable force as the circumstances require, remove or escort the person from the railway or any part of it,

(ii) in circumstances where the authorised officer considers it to be justified, arrest the person without warrant,

IE powers:-

Section 22A - Transport Act 1950

Powers of authorised officers.

“22A.—(1) If an authorised officer reasonably suspects that a person—

(a) is contravening or has contravened or is failing or has failed to comply with a provision of bye-laws made under section 22 of this Act which is stated in the bye-laws to be a penal provision,

(b) is committing or has committed an offence under section 59(1) of this Act, section 25 of the Transport (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1971 , or section 118 or 132 of the Railway Safety Act 2005,

(c) is assaulting or has assaulted or is causing or has caused deliberate harm to another on railway property,

(d) is causing or has caused wanton or deliberate damage to railway property,

(e) is obstructing or has obstructed or is impeding or has impeded an authorised officer in the exercise of his or her duties under this section or any provision of bye-laws made under section 22 of this Act which is stated in the bye-laws to be a penal provision,

(f) on any railway property is intoxicated or is committing or has committed an offence under section 15 of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1977 , or

(g) if requested by an authorised officer to cease such contravention or action or to so comply, fails to comply with the request,

he or she may—

(i) using such reasonable force as the circumstances require, remove or escort the person from the railway property or any part of it,

(ii) in circumstances where the officer considers it to be justified, arrest the person without warrant, or

(iii) require the person to give his or her name and address and, if the person fails or refuses to do so or gives a name that the authorised officer reasonably suspects is false or misleading may arrest that person without warrant,

and, if he or she is not a member of the Garda Síochána, deliver, as soon as practicable, the person, if arrested, into the custody of a member of the Garda Síochána to be dealt with according to law.

(2) A person who fails or refuses to give his or her name or address when required under subsection (1) of this section, or gives a name or address which is false or misleading, is guilty of an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €1,000.

(3) The Board may appoint such and so many persons as it considers necessary to be authorised officers for the purposes of this section or any provision of bye-laws made under section 22 of this Act which is stated in the bye-laws to be a penal provision.

(4) An authorised officer, who is not a member of the Garda Síochána, is not entitled to exercise a power under this section unless he or she has received training and instruction, which, in the opinion of the Board is such as will provide guidance to him or her in the exercise of the power.

(5) The Board shall endorse on the warrant it furnishes to an authorised officer under subsection (6) of this section a statement to the effect that the officer has received the training and instruction referred to in subsection (4) of this section.

(6) An authorised officer, who is not a member of the Garda Síochána, shall, on his or her appointment under this section, be furnished by the Board with a warrant of his or her appointment as an authorised officer.

(7) An authorised officer, who is not a member of the Garda Síochána, when exercising a power under this section shall be in uniform provided or authorised by the Board.

(8) The arrest of a person under this section does not prejudice the re-arrest of the person by a member of the Garda Síochána.

(9) An authorised officer, who is not a member of the Garda Síochána, may be referred to by the Board by such title as it decides.

(10) In this section—

“authorised officer” means a person appointed under this section or a member of the Garda Síochána whose attendance is requested by an authorised officer or by the Board;

“railway property” means all land, buildings, railway infrastructure (within the meaning of the Railway Safety Act 2005), rolling stock and vehicles within the control of the Board.

(11) In this section a reference to the committal of an offence or an act includes a reference to an attempt to commit the offence or the act.”.

As you can see both have power to remove and arrest.

ohnonotgmail

So that includes the STT guys on the luas? interesting.

Del2005

GM228 wrote: »

As you can see both have power to remove and arrest.

Still doesn't stop the scumbags. Like most things in this country we have plenty of laws with little enforcement and if enforced no repercussions due to a farcical legal system.

The_Valeyard

GM228 wrote: »

LUAS powers:-

Section 66B - Transport (Railway Infrastructure) Act 2001




IE powers:-

Section 22A - Transport Act 1950




As you can see both have power to remove and arrest.

And if they make a false arrest or Breach your rights it's a nice payout for someone. They have nearly the same powers as a shopping centre security guard.

lawlolawl

I'm an Irish Rail staff member.

I know we have a certain amount of leeway to detain/remove people but i personally would never use it. It's a good way to get stuck with a dirty needle or have a gang of scummers beat the head off you. Afterwards management will tell you you shouldn't have gotten involved.

I'll try talking to "difficult" people but once it inevitably becomes obvious that they aren't co-operative, i just ring the Gardai to deal with it.

I'm only making a little above the average national wage, i'm not risking my health or wellbeing for a company that doesn't give two ****s about their frontline staff.