Why did Tyson never shoulder roll??

ElectroTechno

Pretty commonly used technique.

Mayweather pretty much the master of it.

He seemed to transitional effortlessly between the square hands boxing defense and the shoulder roll defense - back and forth - it's like he'd switch them up just to confuse his opponent.

But I never saw Tyson use it, despite, IMO, his upper body lateral movement being, maybe even more advanced than mayweathers.

Opinions?

FTA69

Why did Roy Jones never utilise a tight, high guard? Why didn't Muhammad Ali ever tuck up and fight on the inside?

It just wasn't their style at the end of the day.

walshb

ElectroTechno wrote: »

Mayweather pretty much the master of it.

?

Toney, the master. Mayweather the student. Plus, Toney had a hell of an offense off of it. Mayweather had an offense off of it.

Tyson and some others, like FTA said, aren't that type of fighter.

ElectroTechno

I understand that point of view but, I guess I'm asking cause, well - maybe that point exactly

Why was it their style?

What is it about certain styles that make them applicable to certain boxers, yet not others?

By example.
There's this dude in the recent upstart and full legal/licensed by the BBC, promotion, called BKB.
And he has this very unique style.

I mean, is it even a question that can be answered, but why can he use that style, where maybe another boxer could not?
And - again, maybe a ridiculous question - but what is the defining criteria for a certain style being applicable to a specific boxer?

I mean - Mayweather has one of the most developed, technical and diverse styles in boxing - and he's one of the best boxers ever.
I don't believe that's just a coincidence.
Stylistic advancement is, perhaps the most important aspect of boxing effectiveness, along with fitness, by example.

Here's the dude from BKB:

Skip to 4:20

ElectroTechno

youtube.com/watch?v=E73E71xoZ4g

walshb

Floyd's style is quite unique. It's not actually a pretty style in the offensive sense at all. It's very unorthodox.

ElectroTechno

walshb wrote: »

Floyd's style is quite unique. It's not actually a pretty style in the offensive sense at all. It's very unorthodox.

You might be right there.

Well - debatable, but defensively, he looks like a wizard.
I mean, shoulder rolling to counter punching - folk say Tony was the master, but IMO, Floyd just did it better.
He alternated a lot between shoulder rolling and full guard; Tony seemed to work from the shoulder roll position, perhaps almost exclusively.

Stylistically, although for some reason, he never really broke into real top echelon boxing status, but Zab Judah, movement, speed, reactions.
The speed and precision of his jabs, I personally think no one has ever done it better, or more beautifully.

When he fought Amir Khan, by example, alright, he got chewed up, but for the reason he also lost to Mayweather.
A big strong Khan just pressured him, moved forward, punched hard, walked him down, and found his chin.

Against Mayweather, Judah literally ran rings around him for the first four rounds, until Mayweather abandoned "boxing, and became a "fighter", walked him down, threw hard etc.


But anyway - I guess that doesn't explain why Tyson never used the shoulder roll technique.
Maybe he just liked the heavy leather fire fights...?
Though, he was very much hit, and not get hit.

walshb

ElectroTechno wrote: »

You might be right there.

Well - debatable, but defensively, he looks like a wizard.
I mean, shoulder rolling to counter punching - folk say Tony was the master, but IMO, Floyd just did it better.
He alternated a lot between shoulder rolling and full guard; Tony seemed to work from the shoulder roll position, perhaps almost exclusively.
.

Toney for me was far more fluid and natural, plus he did it whilst also maintaining a very fluid and busy offense. Floyd could do both offense and defense off the shoulder roll, but not near as easily or fluidly as Toney. In other words, Floyd was thinking more when doing the shoulder roll in a defensive mode, and doing the shoulder roll whilst being offensive with it. Toney wasn't thinking. He just did it. Far more effortless in my view.

Tyson did not use the shoulder roll because to him it was alien.

ElectroTechno

Alien to him?

He has been coached by Kevin Rooney, Teddy Atlas, and Freddie Roach, among others.

He was noted as being one of the most studious boxers ever.

I don't think anything concerning boxing technique was, "alien", to him.

walshb

ElectroTechno wrote: »

Alien to him?

He has been coached by Kevin Rooney, Teddy Atlas, and Freddie Roach, among others.

He was noted as being one of the most studious boxers ever.

I don't think anything concerning boxing technique was, "alien", to him.

You are missing the point. It doesn't matter a damn who coaches him. He is in charge of what he can do. Some styles or talents or traits are alien to some boxers. End of. They just don't get it the way some other get it, and vice versa. Tyson's excellent bob and weave whilst attacking with fast hands and feet would be alien to Floyd Mayweaather.

Alexis Arguello could never move like Pea Whitaker. Pea Whitaker could never work on the inside like James Toney or JCC. James Toney could never dance like Ali. Ali could never shoulder roll as efficiently as James Toney etc etc etc....

Or, Robbie Keane could never run with the ball like Lionel Messi.

Littlehorny

I seen a video of Tyson teaching a UFC fighter a couple of moves and Tyson explained for a boxer he stood very square on so he could jab, hook and then either move to his opponents left or right to hook to the body or land a big punch to the face. While he worked his way around his opponent like this he manovoured out of the way of the other guys punches.To protect your chin with the shoulder you would need to stand more orthodox or side on.

colly10

I don't think you're style is something you really choose, it's just something that gets built naturally over time based on what you're suited to
You may see something in someone elses style you like but just training it doesn't mean you can naturally add the it to you style.

My straight right was my best shot and my jab was decent, my feet were fairly quick and i always wanted to keep opponents on the outside.
Some fighters were slick on the inside and either had good head movement on the way in or used a solid guard to close the gap. I always felt my inside work was lacking and tried to add it, but it never came as naturally to me as it did to them.

Maybe if my reach was shorter, all my focus would have been on getting inside and i may have been slightly better at it (although probably not great), I think your style ends up being what's naturally suited to you

ElectroTechno

Littlehorny wrote: »

I seen a video of Tyson teaching a UFC fighter a couple of moves and Tyson explained for a boxer he stood very square on so he could jab, hook and then either move to his opponents left or right to hook to the body or land a big punch to the face. While he worked his way around his opponent like this he manovoured out of the way of the other guys punches.To protect your chin with the shoulder you would need to stand more orthodox or side on.

Kudos for picking up on that.

Yes, Tysons style when throwing heavy circular shots was very square on.
However, when he was jabbing, pushing off the rear foot, the body tends to go more side on, so he would sometimes jab his way in from a sideways position, then stand square on the inside.

For that reason, I believe his style didn't necessarily preclude shoulder rolling.
He also, from what I recall, did very little in the way of parrying his opponents shots.


To the last poster who mentioned he has difficulty working on the "inside".
What really lent itself to Tysons style - and his coaches Kevin Rooney and Atlas said early on, when he learned to "slip" punches, he became devastating.

Slipping punches was a "by product", as such, of his overall change or new implementation.

To work heavy shots on the inside, ones abdominal muscles must be strongly flexed.
This gives greater control over the upper body, allowing better "slipping" movement - but also lends itself tremendously to increase the punching power.
Like a weightlifters keeping their abs taught for extra power in lifts.

It also incites a more "rounded" posture, which again translates as better punching leverage than when abdominals are relaxed and the body tends to be more elongated, or even the stomach region curved forward a little - but that's more evident with taller guys.


Try it on the bag - start normally and throw a few body shots.

Then flex your stomach like you're making a 6 pack to impress some chick, hold that, then repeat the body shot - and see can you notice the difference in power.
Also try the lateral upper body movement, side to side, that Tyson did, and see how taught abdominals affects that.

ElectroTechno

Oh yeah - and then, when you try that - come back and tell me whether your style is "something you choose", or not.

StringerBell

You can learn any style, to a point. You will also have natural gifts and abilities, and weaknesses. The key is to find the style that suits the individual boxer best, for Tyson the peek a boo was a great fit with his explosiveness, power and movement.